Benchmark Sporthorses?

[fivestrideline]

@Simkie

Spoke to the buyer? When? It doesn’t sound like she’s ever actually spoken to the buyer at all

Before the purchase. She laid out the horse’s temperament and program needs as they understood them (both in the ad, and she claims to have laid it out when speaking directly to the buyer). She then - according to the buyer - offered to communicate over text or email.

I know some people prefer a phone conversation but I also don’t think that takes precedence over a person preferring written communication. In general, if there’s any indication a customer may be upset, written communication is best (because receipts). If it becomes clear the customer is reasonable, THEN a phone conversation can be scheduled.

I don’t agree with a lot of what Jess/Benchmark says about kissing spines and buyers, and I think that deciding this horse didn’t need a vet vs more training is a bit silly considering the level of experience the seller has. HOWEVER, I don’t think this situation is the seller’s fault. I think the buyer ignored a series of compounding red flags and is now looking for someone to blame. It’s hard to learn these expensive lessons, and I’m very sympathetic to that, BTDT! But I don’t think this is totally on Jess/Benchmark.

[TWilson]

@Warmblood1

don’t you think sellers have an obligation to sell sound horses? Especially when all quirks have been represented as merely behavioral?

What is the definition of a “sound horse”? I do think that sellers should feel obligated to disclose what they know about the horses they are selling and then let the buyer decide what is an acceptable level of risk and what is not. Here is the quote from the seller regarding how she approached his issues:

@Jleegriffith

I did not know about his back. He had a bump on his knee which I had xrayed and was disclosed. It was not an issue. I did not have any reason to think he had kissing spine but a lot of them do. His top line was beautiful, used back well, lovely mover, scopey jumper, etc.

I agree with those who have pointed out that the horse improved over the course of the videos that were presented, so I don’t think the seller’s assessment of the horse was unreasonable. Presumably the buyer also thought the horse was sound at the time of purchase, or she wouldn’t have bought it.

[barnesthenoble]

@Warmblood1

but don’t you think sellers have an obligation to sell sound horses? Especially when all quirks have been represented as merely behavioral?

That is a really unfair and difficult bar to set, IMO. Jess, to the best of her knowledge, believed the horse was sound. She concluded, not unreasonably with the way the horse was presenting improvement over his time with them, that the issues were likely behavioral. She did not see a reason to explore further veterinary diagnostics because the horse was improving. And who gets to decide sound? As we’ve hashed out in this thread and many others, definitions of sound can vary widely across owners, trainers, vets, etc. Whether you think someone’s definition of sound is morally or ethically right or properly informed is a different discussion, but this is why it’s imperative to do your due diligence on any purchase.

Jess disclosed pretty clearly her perspective on the issues and provided pretty comprehensive video of the horse’s behavior. It doesn’t make financial sense at the price point she’s selling horses at to do a full set of rads for a sale horse that is improving in the work. If that is something buyers want, they need to either pay for it themselves or be shopping at a much higher price point.

We are watching these videos with the benefit of hindsight and the knowledge that the horse has a major back issue. If the horse was running happily around a cross country course right now, we’d watch the videos and conclude it was just a big, green horse needing strength and to learn how to go forward into contact. And I know there are cases out there where the first few rides back looked like the videos we saw and wound up not being gnarly KS or a physical issue, but an issue of strength and fitness and confidence in their work and people.

Obviously it’s a huge disappointment that the horse does have bad KS, and I agree the horse looks NQR in the videos. But I’ve seen with my own eyes horses that presented similarly and wound up genuinely just needing strength etc. Would I personally have been comfortable continuing without a workup if the horse were one of mine? Probably not. But it’s worked for some folks and their horses.

I don’t think anyone comes away from this transaction looking particularly good. It sucks all the way around. I think the buyer should have done more due diligence in the vetting, and I have questions about why they represented themselves as having a trainer when they didn’t. I think Jess probably shouldn’t have sold this horse to this buyer and should have tried to make sure he landed in a professional’s program. I just hope the horse rehabs from surgery well and ends up being a comfortable riding horse.

[Bogie]

@Warmblood1

I agree that sellers should not have to babysit, but don’t you think sellers have an obligation to sell sound horses? Especially when all quirks have been represented as merely behavioral?

I don’t think most flippers (or people who shop the track) do PPEs on the horses. It would simply be too expensive. Years ago I worked with someone (like Benchmark) that got some very nice horses off the track in Cleveland. The horse was sound but when I had him vetted an old injury that could have been a problem for my intended use, emerged. I’m positive the seller didn’t know. His margins were too thin to spend the $$ on the vet exams. My vet advised passing on the horse.

And if I had a dollar for every horse I’ve gone to look at that was lame, I’d be able to take myself out for a nice meal. A couple of times, I’ve looked at the trainer and/or owner and had to ask, you do know your horse is lame, right?

In the case of these videos, the horse did look better as he was ridden more. His movement still raised some flags for me, but if your business model is to keep the horses only for a few weeks, you’re not going to do a lot of x-rays.

Edited to add: at the price point that Benchmark sells horses for (which IMO is quite reasonable), I believe that it’s up to the buyer to assess their own level of risk when it comes to PPEs.

[fivestrideline]

@Bogie

And if I had a dollar for every horse I’ve gone to look at that was lame, I’d be able to take myself out for a nice meal.

Same here. SO MANY are lame/NQR on video (and I wouldn’t go look), and when I was shopping I sat on several that were certainly LAME by my standards. But since the horse was weight bearing and not head-bobbing, the sellers kept advertising as “sound” . It’s not limited to one reseller.

[BabyBays]

This horse seemed awfully familiar to me - is this the horse from this post?

After an extended break I need ALL the things, your favs?

I need it all… Took an extended break (10 years) for med school and kids. I’m back bitches. LOL For real though…it’s been a minute but, I bought the horse-child so I need everything. Helmet, boots, high-waist full-seat breeches, bridle, saddle (taking your recs, will wait for the saddle fitter recs), saddle pads, blankets, doo-hickies, doo-dads, lovelies…gimme all your favs and any holiday sales attached! Helmet, boots and breeches are high priority! Suppose bridle is as well. Thank you (Phot…

If it is, it would seem odd to purchase this horse after this long of a hiatus but I can understand why the lameness may have been overlooked. Probably not a home I would have placed this horse in (coming from bad green horse, green rider situations myself) but perhaps not all of the information was disclosed to the seller. I do feel empathetic for both sides and hope for a positive recovery for the horse.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

@Warmblood1

I agree that sellers should not have to babysit, but don’t you think sellers have an obligation to sell sound horses? Especially when all quirks have been represented as merely behavioral?

Vet passed the horse. Seller does not veto vet opinion.

[barnesthenoble]

@BabyBays

This horse seemed awfully familiar to me - is this the horse from this post?

Comparing the two, it sure looks like the same horse to me. The context of these previous posts just add another layer of WTF.

[Bogie]

@barnesthenoble

Comparing the two, it sure looks like the same horse to me. The context of these previous posts just add another layer of WTF.

Sure looks like the same horse, especially as it came from Benchmark.

[2bayboys]

Well, if the photos from that post suddenly disappear due to edits we’ll know for sure won’t we? Sure looks like the same horse and the timeframe lines up.

[fivestrideline]

Wow, great memory! Totally appears to be the same horse (17.3 TB, right time frame). An identical face, despite being rather plain.

[BabyBays]

Yeah I’m not sure who comes out looking worse for that situation - just that there is context that may have been omitted and we may not have the full story on either end. I think there are missteps and regrets on both sides of the transaction. I remember wanting to follow this horse and hoping he had a good outcome. No doubt the buyer and seller felt the same. I’m sad for all.

[fivestrideline]

@BabyBays

just that there is context that may have been omitted and we may not have the full story on either end

I think that’s true, even if it is a different horse.

He’s young yet, so hopefully his very attentive new owner has caught the core problem early (it really seems like they are doing everything possible for him!). My experience with KS has been that it is not the only issue 90% of the time - but I found the spinal issues much later than Amos did.

[barnesthenoble]

@BabyBays

Yeah I’m not sure who comes out looking worse for that situation - just that there is context that may have been omitted and we may not have the full story on either end.

Agreed; I think a lot would depend on knowing how much was divulged to Jess by the new owner re: first horse after a 10 year hiatus, relationship or lackthereof with a trainer, etc. I know there were a lot of dressage folks drooling over this horse when Jess had him and can see how someone would think they were getting a WB mover without the price tag.

Ultimately there were a number of errors in judgment made in this situation and I, too, am sad for all. Jingling hard that he does well after surgery and has a riding career that lives up to his new owner’s hopes.

[Amberley]

@barnesthenoble

I know there were a lot of dressage folks drooling over this horse when Jess had him and can see how someone would think they were getting a WB mover without the price tag.

I’ve no dog in this fight but I am a serious dressage folk and I guarantee you zero serious dressage folks are not drooling over a horse moving like that, with the stiff neck and balking like that - especially at that age. Dressage people look at the hind end movement most. And are very averse to horses that buck! Or spook or act up at all- but that’s another post.

I like to buy TBs, get some real training on them and resell them later so I look at videos quite a bit and occasionally buy one. I have two now. I am reasonably educated about TBs and how they look

[barnesthenoble]

I have a dressage background myself I didn’t say they were right to drool nor did I specify how many of them were so-called “serious” dressage riders.

I know quite a few self-identified dressage riders who don’t necessarily know what they’re looking at and can’t see past what looks like a fancy toe-flinging trot. People who aren’t necessarily educated enough to see the red flags and think they’re getting a fancy mover on a budget.

Even dressage riders aren’t a monolith and they don’t all come with a great eye for biomechanics

[foursocks]

Not that this horse was right off the track but he did seem to move like many of the ones that have huge trots and everyone gets excited about, except that most of them are very tight in their backs so (it seems to me) they just don’t want to canter. I forgive that in a horse right off the track, but a huge stabby trot from a horse that has been OTT for a while isn’t great.

There is a big difference between a horse with a nice, swingy trot that shows a true push from behind over the back, and one that is tight, dropped in the back, and shows the horse just flinging its legs out. It’s a level trot, not one that goes up and over from behind. I don’t think a lot of people’s eyes are trained to see it, though. Loose backs produce really good trots, and this is one reason why the trot can be improved with training and time. No horse coming off the track can be expected to have a loose back, or even the strength to work over its back in the first place- the way they run gives them the opposite sort of muscle development. So, when there is a tight-backed horse with this huge movement that comes from the legs and not the back, I think people see a fancy shape but not the actual mechanics.

[Railbird]

Kind of telling with all the interest he gathered on the internet and as long as the seller had him, the person who actually bought him was the one with no professional guidance coming back from a long time away during which KS “became a thing.” I don’t think Jess is a bad person, I think she is in denial and this is a bad look. If she didn’t know he had a history of periodically explosive behavior and didn’t publicly share that she didn’t believe in kissing spines as a reason for said explosive behavior, it would be a different situation.

To go back to my house analogy, it would be a lot like an agent who loudly shares that they don’t believe that termites actually cause houses to fall down selling a house where it was later discovered that there was extensive termite damage. Not great that someone would buy it without a thorough inspection, but also hard to take the word of someone that there were no signs of this problem and thus they disclosed what was appropriate when they share they don’t believe the problem is real.

[omare]

Can you x-ray in the field (farm) for kissing spine or do you need to ship-in to clinic? TIA

[steelerino]

@omare I had my horse x ray’s and injected at my farm