Benchmark Sporthorses?

[spurofthemoment]

Thanks for that response!

A lot of what you said makes sense for who these programs are trying to target (experienced juniors/ammys and pros who want projects). The sellers are selling both the horse and its potential. If they can show its potential way of going, then it makes sense to make the beautiful clips of the horse in consistent contact the highlight. Again, not to be shady, but to demonstrate potential. The experienced folks should know there are other caveats and that there will be work that needs to be done down the line. The horses are green to their new careers, after all!

[NaturallyHappy]

@beowulf

The wheels fall off when a floppy amateur rides them; not because the amateur sucks or because the seller is shady, but because the prior rider is so skilled at riding a green horse they can make a donkey look good.

This is so very, very, VERY true. My late DH was one of those.

[vxf111]

@beowulf

I don’t have any inside info to this seller in question’s program, but I’ve seen enough of general OTTB programs to think that these horses may be put on the lunge, possibly in side-reins, and then ridden - because their consistency in contact resembles it and it’s unusual for a green OTTB to be consistent in contact with one or two rides post track.

Some riders can just make a horse look fabulous.

I went to look at a hunter in the program of a very good pro. The pro got on and rode first. Horse looked like a dream. It moved and jumped SO WELL. I got on and rode. Horse felt like a dream. All I had to do was think what I wanted and BOOM, the horse did it. I felt like I was riding on a cloud. It was bliss. I went back and RAVED about the horse to my trainer. RAVED.

I went back a second time with my trainer. This time assistant trainer rode the horse first. It went around like 100 other horses you’d see at a local show. No better, no worse. Just a horse. My trainer was like “this horse excites you?” And, indeed, while it still did all the things-- it didn’t go nearly as well for the assistant trainer. Then I got on and, again, while the horse did what I asked I did not get that amazing feel.

That trainer was very gifted. She could make any horse go and feel like his ABSOLUTE best. She wasn’t being deceptive or hiding the ball. She just had that way about her.

[Xctrygirl]

Equally not to sound snarky, but the precise angles it takes to do the neck correctly in the field are why it’s more useful to go to the clinic. Of my two imports, only one had all the neck rads “Close enough” to determine that status of C-5 - C7. The other one you can’t see C7 well. And that’s with vet training and the ability to simply redo it.

Em

[GraceLikeRain]

@beowulf

The wheels fall off when a floppy amateur rides them; not because the amateur sucks or because the seller is shady, but because the prior rider is so skilled at riding a green horse they can make a donkey look good.

I don’t have any inside info to this seller in question’s program, but I’ve seen enough of general OTTB programs to think that these horses may be put on the lunge, possibly in side-reins, and then ridden - because their consistency in contact resembles it and it’s unusual for a green OTTB to be consistent in contact with one or two rides post track.

Maybe so but my hypothesis is tempo over lunging in side reins.

A very good dressage trainer I deeply respected was responsible for starting many horses that went on to be very successful FEI horses. She rode very very forward pushing over tempo with all green horses. Her motto was that you can’t be naughty when everything is moving forward, the head is up, and you are keeping their mind engaged. It was surprisingly effective.

Benchmark horses are hustling. I really think that the hustle eliminates a lot of evasive behavior and why Benchmark has several times showcased horses that arrived with a history of being balky or not thriving that seem to turn around in no time at all. I also think that a lot of horses instinctively get pretty light in the bridle when pushing that hard behind. I don’t think it is beneficial to ride over tempo long term but I do think that it is a super effective technique with a young horse to establish forward is always the answer. I think it also explains why many OTTBs that look great with a reseller fall apart at home. I don’t think it is the floppy ammy but rather the one that is tense and riding under tempo trying to make everything suppper quiet and small and not scary. A bright athletic young horse that thrived on dynamic 20 minute rides may look really different after a month of sucked back creeping around the ring.

I may be totally wrong but I do think that if you watch one of their videos compared to the average ammy riding a green TB there is a significant tempo difference.

[Curly_Feather]

@beowulf

The wheels fall off when a floppy amateur rides them; not because the amateur sucks or because the seller is shady, but because the prior rider is so skilled at riding a green horse they can make a donkey look good.

So true. Another thing is just the routine that these young horses have while at the dealer. We have a few dealers here in my country. The horses are ridden or lunged 6 days a week, even if just 15 - 20 minutes. Their handling is professional and very consistent. It encourages acceptance of strict routine and handling. They are presented beautifully and sell pretty quickly once their ads have gone up.

Then they’re bought by an amateur, and the change to a more lax routine (and I’m really not bashing amateurs, I am one myself) because of other life obligations sometimes cause these young horses some wobbles. It’s not to say it won’t work out over time, but the beginning can certainly be rocky.

[Libby2563]

@beowulf

I don’t have any inside info to this seller in question’s program, but I’ve seen enough of general OTTB programs to think that these horses may be put on the lunge, possibly in side-reins, and then ridden - because their consistency in contact resembles it and it’s unusual for a green OTTB to be consistent in contact with one or two rides post track.

I see why you say that but I don’t think Jessica does this. Many of the horses she sells are there less than a week anyway, so there’s not much time for training. I get the impression that they don’t all get worked every day either. When I went there I tried three horses back to back and the only immediate prep seemed to be her rider warming them up (though they could have been longed earlier in the morning I suppose). When I vetted the horse I bought, I remember us all wondering if he would longe for the PPE, even without side reins.

It’s been a while since I’ve watched any of Jessica’s sales videos, but I think the consistency you see might be the riders using the tempo @GraceLikeRain mentioned to send the horses into contact that is consistent enough to act almost like side reins. If that makes sense? I think in the long term it has to evolve into something more nuanced, but in the short term it can create a very pretty picture.

[beowulf]

@Libby2563

It’s been a while since I’ve watched any of Jessica’s sales videos, but I think the consistency you see might be the riders using the tempo @GraceLikeRain mentioned to send the horses into contact that is consistent enough to act almost like side reins. If that makes sense? I think in the long term it has to evolve into something more nuanced, but in the short term it can create a very pretty picture.

I think @GraceLikeRain is spot on with the forward / over-tempo too.

It’s a skill in of itself to ride a young green TB over tempo and make it look good. Usually when I do that, the horse is just taking off with me.

An aside about over tempo in WB - this is consistent with all the WB sales and YH barns I’ve worked or ridden for. The first thing is teaching them FORWARD in bold because most of them don’t come installed with an urge to go fast.

[Sticky_Situation]

I can’t recall exactly how the Benchmark Sport Horses rants were worded when I’ve seen them in the past, and I also don’t have a problem with her business model … She seems to accurately represent horses and get some nice ones in to resell.

But it’s an annoying trend in the horse industry of certain professionals taking to social media to “call out” their customers, be it horse buyers, amateurs, boarders, what have you. These posts always seem to be met with enthusiastic support from a lot of commenters, often others who work in the horse industry, but they inevitably have a critical, superior undertone that rubs me the wrong way, as a working amateur who has worked on farms before and did some teaching and training on the side when I was younger.

There seem to constantly be social media posts going around criticizing horse owners trying to find affordable boarding stables by essentially saying “how dare you greedy amateurs want to board your horse as inexpensively as possible! Anything but silently forking over however much is asked means you have no idea how hard it is working with horses! If you expect basic board to be less than $1000/horse/month your barn will be losing money!!” The last part is certainly true in high COL areas, but not everywhere. And it’s not unreasonable to want good basic horse care at as affordable a price as possible … we’re all just trying to find a way to keep the horses we love and stay within our budget.

And horse seller posts complaining that prospective buyers decided to pass on a horse after a PPE finding, or had the audacity to ask a question the seller thinks is uneducated.

Or trainer posts complaining that today’s amateur clients don’t want to put in the work to get better … meanwhile they’re mounted on something they bought at the trainer’s suggestion that is too much horse for them to feel comfortable riding outside of lessons.

I get it that every professional in any industry is going to have bad clients from time to time, and frustrating encounters after which they need to vent, but these annoying “PSA” posts just seem … unprofessional to me, and a lot like biting the hand that feeds you.

[DGEventing]

I do this too. The other problem is the market struggles with this. You make the most money when you sell with 30/60 days right off of the track. Making 12K on a horse I’ve had for 6 months means that I am losing a fairly large chunk of change. Mostly because the 6 month plus crowd wants the horse to have been off property (and be lovely), competed (and placed), stands/loads/clips/ties, etc, etc. I sell most of my horses for 10K after 90 days. And I only have 2 at a time (if that) so they get individualized attention. If they are around for much longer, I’m losing, and then better off keeping the horse until it is at novice/training selling for 30K.

[Meshach1]

I was talking to my farrier this AM and he said no joke, about 80% of his clients have said when their current horse goes, they aren’t getting another one. Way too expensive now and too much aggravation.

I also have a problem with vets advertising their gadgets and services and the implication that if you are not doing all the things (FES, every type of injection under the sun, shockwave, massage, chiro, rehab, $$$$ diagnostics, etc) you are a bad owner as well.

[Sticky_Situation]

@Meshach1

I also have a problem with vets advertising their gadgets and services and the implication that if you are not doing all the things (FES, every type of injection under the sun, shockwave, massage, chiro, rehab, $$$$ diagnostics, etc) you are a bad owner as well.

I feel this SO much. I’m a minimalist with vet care … for one thing, I straight up can’t afford hundreds of dollars in unproven therapies every month, and for another, most of those things have minimal to zero evidence they do anything remotely useful for the average horse. My horses get their vaccines and deworming and teeth etc, but they don’t need monthly “maintenance” in the form of alternative therapies and expensive placebos. And yet there’s pressure from trainers and vets to do those things with the implication that you’re a bad horse owner if you don’t, and newer owners/ones without the medical knowledge to see that it’s mostly unproven BS will take it to heart.

[awaywego]

The derisiveness towards adult amateurs in general is particularly distasteful to me. As far as I’m concerned, the only difference between me and many pro’s is that I have had the sense not to declare myself a professional There is a huge range in experience and skill in amateurs, just as there is a huge range in professionals. Imagine painting all professionals with the same broad brush many pro’s paint all amateurs with…

[Tha_Ridge]

Yup, we are on exactly the same model!

[McGurk]

In general, I do agree that there’s a “biting the hands that feed you” element in professionals complaining about ammys.

The whole industry depends on ammys who are willing to pay pros for lessons, training, coaching and commissions on sale horses.

So if you want to complain about clueless ammys, I want to know what you’re doing to better educate your clients and students.

In specific, I still don’t have a problem with Benchmark and her venting on her personal page, and here’s why:

1.) Her business is very well run and fills a much needed niche in the market
2.) IMO, her complaint is that people want more than they’re willing to pay for. An under 10K good sport horse prospect is either going to be very green, have a few reservations on the PPE or both. If you are not willing to accept either of those things, you’re shopping in the wrong place. I feel certain that she has customers who think buying an OTTB through her is the way to get an inexpensive horse, but then they’re holding the horse to the same standard as a purpose bred horse at a 30 - 40K + price point. If they then balk at a minor finding on the PPE (not KS xrays necessarily), I understand her annoyance.

[NaturallyHappy]

I will add those individuals taking horses directly from the track deserve to make some money because they took the INITIAL risk. Go to the track yourself if you are willing to assume that.

[endlessclimb]

Oh sure, I don’t think anyone is arguing that.

But their initial risk taking doesn’t allow them to crap all over anyone else who isn’t willing to take a risk based on a more extensive PPE/evaluation.

[pony_grandma]

@NaturallyHappy

I will add those individuals taking horses directly from the track deserve to make some money because they took the INITIAL risk. Go to the track yourself if you are willing to assume that.

Right the buyer gets to see them ridden and try the horse(s) and vet them. The track is pay and load.

[vxf111]

@Libby2563

It’s been a while since I’ve watched any of Jessica’s sales videos, but I think the consistency you see might be the riders using the tempo @GraceLikeRain mentioned to send the horses into contact that is consistent enough to act almost like side reins. If that makes sense? I think in the long term it has to evolve into something more nuanced, but in the short term it can create a very pretty picture.

Having watched her videos, I think she has very skilled, quality riders. They could get on anything and make it look good.

[Lunabear1988]

Is your farrier worried about his future as a professional in the equine industry?

And I agree that you shouldn’t have to spend $1,000 a month on maintenance on a horse to be a good owner!

I literally had it suggested to me by a trainer, to have $500 worth of maintenance on my horse every single month. Meanwhile I was kind of scratching my head to wonder what was going on in that program that every horse needed so much maintenance…