Benchmark Sporthorses?

[endlessclimb]

Oh sure, I don’t think anyone is arguing that.

But their initial risk taking doesn’t allow them to crap all over anyone else who isn’t willing to take a risk based on a more extensive PPE/evaluation.

[pony_grandma]

@NaturallyHappy

I will add those individuals taking horses directly from the track deserve to make some money because they took the INITIAL risk. Go to the track yourself if you are willing to assume that.

Right the buyer gets to see them ridden and try the horse(s) and vet them. The track is pay and load.

[vxf111]

@Libby2563

It’s been a while since I’ve watched any of Jessica’s sales videos, but I think the consistency you see might be the riders using the tempo @GraceLikeRain mentioned to send the horses into contact that is consistent enough to act almost like side reins. If that makes sense? I think in the long term it has to evolve into something more nuanced, but in the short term it can create a very pretty picture.

Having watched her videos, I think she has very skilled, quality riders. They could get on anything and make it look good.

[Lunabear1988]

Is your farrier worried about his future as a professional in the equine industry?

And I agree that you shouldn’t have to spend $1,000 a month on maintenance on a horse to be a good owner!

I literally had it suggested to me by a trainer, to have $500 worth of maintenance on my horse every single month. Meanwhile I was kind of scratching my head to wonder what was going on in that program that every horse needed so much maintenance…

[Meshach1]

haha no. my farrier is very good but he’s also a cranky dude who is tired of this industry as well. so now in thinking about it, his opinion might be skewed.

but also not surprised if so, I have had two friends who have said the same to me that they won’t get another.

[vxf111]

@Sticky_Situation

I straight up can’t afford hundreds of dollars in unproven therapies every month, and for another, most of those things have minimal to zero evidence they do anything remotely useful for the average horse.

With you on this. I will spend whatever it costs on something proven to have veterinary benefit. I have no interest in whatever woo woo snake oil is most popular at the moment.

Someone posted on FB asking for recommendations for an animal communicator because the one they initially planned to use had a 7 week backup in booking appointments. How are you 7 weeks booked out of making sh!t up? I can literally make sh!t up on the spot. kindergarteners can make sh!t up on the spot. It’s like the most basic of human skills.

How are you 7 weeks booked out of making sh!t up so as to extract money from people?

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@vxf111

How are you 7 weeks booked out of making sh!t up?

LOL!

[Xanthoria]

@floppyammy

But this is important information that people need to consider.

This stallion, from a top KY TB farm, was diagnosed with degenerate cervical arthritis along with kissing spine and was in so much discomfort that he was refusing to breed. He was 7 years old. Breeding 150-200 mares a year. CA and KS are thought to be heritable conditions. The major TB industry does not care about longevity.

And guess who gets to foot the bill of those horses that wash out of the industry? Average Ammy public.

Caveat Emptor.

And not to derail further, but similar issues like PSSM, which could straightforwardly be tested for and bred out of any line, are not addressed by unethical breeders because the problem only comes up several years on, after baby is sold and started. Once again, the (usually) amateur owner pays the price.

On the other hand, WFFS is addressed promptly, because those foals don’t make it to sellable age, and the buck cannot be passed.

[Scribbler]

@KellyS

@McGurk

I think she knows exactly what her niche market it is, and is marketing to it very successfully. She’s selling to highly competent amateurs and pros who are capable of finishing a horse themselves, who won’t be put off by something forward or spicy, who are capable of making a decision on horse quickly and can tolerate a certain amount of risk at the price point she’s selling.

I doubt very much that she’s alienating that market with her social media post.

The value that she adds is her contacts with breeders and at the track, her ability to evaluate and source the horses, get decent pics and video of them and put the first post track rides on them. Also that you can see multiple horses at the same place in one visit.

IF her business model was to keep a horse for 6 months, take it to a few shows, have it jumping 2’ 6" and be started on changes, then sell it at a higher price point, then I’d agree with you - she might be alienating prospective buyers. But the target market for those horses is very different.

I’ve been watching Jessica develop her business since the beginning via social media, and I really appreciate her honesty about all aspects of the business.

She started with a business plan before starting her business and planned out each step of business development. She knew what year she would begin making a profit, what she needed to initially invest, and what capital improvements needed to be done along the way, among many other aspects of developing a business. I can’t remember where the article is, but she wrote a great piece about planning a successful horse business.

It’s takes a lot to impress me, and seeing someone approach their business so professionally, and be willing to share that knowledge, definitely made an impression. The horse industry would greatly benefit if more professionals ran their businesses this way.

As @McGurk says, Jess knows her clientele, and she has a strong sales business. Her horses move fast, and I think she does a super job of representing them truthfully and ethically.

It’s not a model for everyone, and it’s good for people to realize this. However, it does work for people who are confident making a time-sensitive decision and purchasing a horse based on their instincts for its future, knowing that there are no guarantees with horses. It’s similar to buying youngsters or purchasing off video and someone’s word. There’s more risk to the decision, but it can be very rewarding.

I don’t get the agitation and anger about Jess’s comments online. There is so much truth to what she says, and I especially respect her transparency about her business: the highs, lows, and in-betweens. It’s not an easy way to make money for sure, and I appreciate her honesty and I know I’ll be a better customer in the future because of it.

(A lot of posts show the top-notch veterinary care the horses receive, and she addresses issues even if it means investing money and months to get the horse right. They are not all quick turn-around sales. Those that aren’t sale candidates are given to good homes; those with significant behavioral or physical issues are given a kind end. Jess does right by the horses in her care.)

I have to say that a group of people “complaining” on social media (COTH) about one specific person because that same person “complains” on social media (Facebook) about a large, anonymous group of people is a little ironic. If you feel her commentary is unprofessional, maybe it’s unprofessional for this conversation to be happening here, where one can be anonymous in their criticism (including me!). But that’s a topic for another day

Anyway, thank you for listening ~ I’ve been thinking about this for weeks, but wasn’t sure how to put my thoughts into words.

ETA: I do not know Jess and have not interacted with her nor purchased a horse from her. These are my impressions based on her social media presence.

It’s not unprofessional for me to complain about horse stuff online because I am not a horse professional. It would be unprofessional for me to complain about my actual job or say anything that could identify my students. I am very careful never to do that on any social media.

As far as being anonymous, there’s enough crazy wafting through COTH that I keep myself anonymous and I also locked down my profile to make it harder for the Dressage Hub and the like to try to doxx me through random details

[enjoytheride]

@GraceLikeRain

Benchmark horses are hustling. I really think that the hustle eliminates a lot of evasive behavior and why Benchmark has several times showcased horses that arrived with a history of being balky or not thriving that seem to turn around in no time at all. I also think that a lot of horses instinctively get pretty light in the bridle when pushing that hard behind. I don’t think it is beneficial to ride over tempo long term but I do think that it is a super effective technique with a young horse to establish forward is always the answer. I think it also explains why many OTTBs that look great with a reseller fall apart at home. I don’t think it is the floppy ammy but rather the one that is tense and riding under tempo trying to make everything suppper quiet and small and not scary. A bright athletic young horse that thrived on dynamic 20 minute rides may look really different after a month of sucked back creeping around the ring.

I think this is a good point. Benchmark’s riders are strong, skilled, brave riders used to riding straight off the track horses forward. I have a friend who does the AOs who bought one that had a few videos of it jumping 3 feet and she said the horse was not “broke” at all and she’s a very skilled rider. It’s nothing against Benchmark, it just showcases their talent for getting a green fit horse to look it’s best. I also know of a upper level eventer who purchased some horses from Ireland that were jumping 3’ 6" and he said the same thing. It’s the skill in the seller.

I also agree that with green horses, especially fit ones used to going very fast and not much else, over tempo is your friend! It’s safer, it installs the forward button.

When us average riders get these horses home, we don’t ride them forward and run head first into issues. That’s not the fault of the seller, that’s the fault of the buyer for not understanding what they bought.

[Fiesta01]

@GraceLikeRain

A very good dressage trainer I deeply respected was responsible for starting many horses that went on to be very successful FEI horses.

Would the initials of this trainer be GN?

[omare]

Well totally non-sequitur here, but as far as efficient layouts, I like the well maintained turn out round pens in her videos, with hung hay nets (all in the background of the video). Looks like horses spend a nice amount of time turned out. (I am looking for turnout designs for mud season…)

[vxf111]

@Fiesta01

Would the initials of this trainer be GN?

She made some nice hunters too!

[GraceLikeRain]

No although a very talented trainer.

AB was very behind the scenes. Very talented and unfortunately no longer US based. A true loss.

[Jleegriffith]

I would like to know how do people maintain transparency if you aren’t being honest? When horses don’t vet you simply say why they didn’t vet and that has absolutely nothing to do with the person vetting horses. The reality is people know a horse is sale pending…then they likely know it didn’t vet…and are going to want to know why it didn’t vet. I can honestly say that 99% of the horses that don’t sell are because of something very minor that generally the next vet who reviews the xrays will okay the horse. If it has a tiny flake, minor kissing spine, hock changes, etc then I simply say that. I really don’t have the time in my day to present a horse to multiple vettings so I would rather be forthcoming. I am sorry people find that to be crass but I find it transparent. People take things personal when it’s not meant to be. What one person thinks is a big deal another might not. I often do everything I can to help people sell their vettings and recoup money when I can.

[NaturallyHappy]

I’ll chime in here and say vetting is very personal, and perhaps relates to how risk adverse one is. I’d never buy one without vetting….because I want to know what’s there, even if it doesn’t cause problems. If I sell that one and issue comes up, I can say “Oh that… it’s been there”. I also pull blood. I have friends who never bother w vetting.

[Jleegriffith]

I very routinely discuss those that are difficult for whatever reason. Lots of our videos show spooking, bucking, green moments, etc because not all horses are easy. Some truly are though and when I say it I do mean it and can prove it. When I say horses are difficult for us and specify the type of program they need everyone thinks well maybe they can do better with them. Possibly and if that is the case I will cheer for you! I lay it out there as honestly as I can. I have horses come through that for whatever reason we just couldn’t get going very well. Normally I just say exactly what I think the issue is and show videos and let people make their own decisions on whether they want to try the horse.

The most common things we see are horses that are very much behind the leg. I find it much more common for horses to be extremely “stuck” coming off the track that forward. They can be nappy at the gate or by their friends and we talk about it and show how we fix it. Most don’t buck or rear if you actually ride them forward and teach them how to go over their backs.

[Jleegriffith]

Our horses do not lunge unless they come in here absolutely inverted or are so completely behind the leg we need to install go forward on the lunge first. Ya know because people either love or hate me I tell it like it is and that is that most people that really struggle are afraid to ride forward. The first things I teach a horse is going forward and how to find some sort of connection. Tb’s thrive when allowed to go forward and have some guidance from their rider. Most riders do not have any concept of how to connect a horse properly and that can lead to many issues. The toughest horses that we get here are the horses that were started by others post track. I rarely and I really do mean extremely rarely encounter any issues with horses coming right off the track.

[NaturallyHappy]

@Jleegriffith

The toughest horses that we get here are the horses that were started by others post track. I rarely and I really do mean extremely rarely encounter any issues with horses coming right off the track.

I understand this very well.

[Jleegriffith]

So I wanted to read how people were reacting to the Shane Rose outfit and happened to check in to read about myself which probably isn’t great for your mental health I would love to know who most of the people are behind these comments. So easy to hide behind a keyboard isn’t it?

I would say that 85% of the horses I sell are vetted with fairly extensive vettings. When you are in the sales business you hope to be as transparent as possible. It’s interesting that what I view as being open about horses that have been vetted is interpreted as me crapping on customers. So when someone vets a horse here and I think it was a good vetting with a minor finding that 99% of other buyers will not have an issue with do I not get to say that because it might hurt feelings? I am not calling people out but I am trying to be factual and honest. Tiny changes in a joint, little spurs, slight positive flexions, chips that are outside the joint and are quiet, minor radiographic changes in the back and so many other findings are likely things most people do not balk at buying. I am NOT encouraging people to buy horses with major issues and take a big old risk. It’s just a line you have to walk when you are trying to sell horses because the reality is my horses are popular. People know they had a PPE. They know they are back on the market. I would rather just say what the findings were that waste the time of everyone involved. If a customer is willing to share/sell their xrays then I absolutely am going to help them recoup some money. Most horses are sold based off the vetting someone else did so what does that say?

Kissing spine…guys pretty soon there will be no horses that don’t have kissing spine. It’s NOT just tb’s but every darn breed. I know I get people riled up and we can all have our beliefs but I truly do believe most are asymptomatic and when horses do have behavior problems so many people are so fast to jump to OMG it’s their back. I have gotten so many of these horses and boom some change in riding and the horse is having no behavior issues. Was it the back or does it just make us feel better to say that?

I got a horse back that I sold that was going to be euthanized…yes euthanized…because it was having some sort of behavior and was said to have minor kissing spine. Horse came back and never put a foot wrong. A pro bought him with full disclosure of what I knew and did her own vetting. He’s been in the top three at every event now at training level and the sky is the limit. I can’t even begin to tell you how frustrated VETS are with the kissing spine thing. You think sellers are frustrated…try talking to vets about it. I go through at least 100+ vettings a year here. Vets from all over are simply frustrated. There is zero prediction on whether a horse will have kissing spine. Vets are saying they are seeing horses that use their backs great, move great, zero clinical signs, nice toplines, etc and they would not expect kissing spine. They xray and boom kissing spine. I hear them talking to clients and saying look a very high percentage of horses have kissing spine. Research is showing that most do not develop clinical symptoms. How much money are people spending to buy the perfect back? I have sold plenty of horses with kissing spine and I tell people what I know. I don’t hide it but I also refuse to buy into a kissing spine horse being limited. I am sorry if that offends you but there are horses at the top of all the disciplines having zero issues. Ride the horses properly and maintain them. They do just fine! Most that struggle are because they are ridden horribly.

Nobody wants to admit that maybe they are the problem but hey I am not allowed to talk about that without offending someone. I would give myself the same advice as do I give it to my riders. Before we go down the rabbit hole of saying the horse has xyz issue we try to look at ourselves first. How can we ride better, feed better, manage it better, etc. I am all for vet workups but I also am very much about getting help from other professionals to tell me if it’s just the riding that needs to change.

I could care less what height horses you all want to buy. However, I will do my best to tell you what horses will suit you. I am darn good at what I do and I love my horses. I know what an upper level horse is and what is not. I am not saying all mine are UL horses. I will stand by the fact that most people don’t buy what they should and that generally isn’t my fault. I can only do so much because in general people buy with their eyes vs buying what they should buy. Sure, I talk a LOT about what people should be focused on when shopping because I hope to offer some guidance the best that I can. I have horses that I truly think would make people so happy because we love riding them so much. However, people routinely find them too plain, not fancy enough, etc. It’s always tough to try to find ways to show those horses are awesome.

I will try to match anyone with the “right” ottb because I believe their is the right one for everyone but that takes honesty from both the buyer and seller. If you overstate your abilities when you buy a horse it won’t go well. There are plenty of horses that I think anyone could ride and I make that clear. They are easy even when they get zero direction. There are others we state need a rider with a vast skill set and consistent program. Even then sometimes the program just doesn’t fit and well that is just horses for you. It’s sometimes a frustrating sport.

I like to think that I am still in business and thriving because I do my best to be honest. If I don’t think the horse is a fit then I am going to say it. If I don’t think “I” am for you then I will just avoid doing business with you. If I think there is a bad vibe then I am just going to pass. I have been at it a long time and there is a recipe for success. Those who are looking for perfection are often just not my favorite buyers because one thing about horses is that they always throw a monkey wrench in our plans. I find it hard to meet the expectations of those who want “perfect.” I am all for everyone doing vettings and whatever it takes to make you feel at ease but the reality is that any breed of horse has imperfections. If I speak to you and get the vibe that you think Tb’s are broken I am going to pass. I LOVE Tb’s and I am passionate about the horses that I sell. I believe in them and I believe in our program. I want people who want to own and want to champion ottb’s. If my passion bothers you then it’s okay we are just not for one another. There is always another seller that will be a better fit just like there is always another buyer that is a better match.

It’s easy to sit behind a computer screen and act like you know someone. I will tell anyone my door is open. You want to see us doing first rides…please come. I can promise you my videos are only edited for length and not content. I don’t hide who we are or what my horses are even when I sometimes might want to. Not all my horses are great but I still love them. They still had owners who want them in new careers. I have to do the best I can with what I have right? My riders are real people with real feelings too. We do understand not everyone will love us but the fact is we are placing around 200tb’s a year in new homes. We provide a huge service to the industry. This business is brutal. It does make you hard. I know that I am not the same person that I probably was 15 years ago…10 yrs ago…5yrs ago. People are straight up mean and will try to drag you down in the trenches. Social media is a blessing and a curse. You are damned if you do and damned if you don’t sometimes. I just try to be real about the ups and downs. Apparently that doesn’t always sit well with everyone and I will take that input.

I just really love the horses. The people part…well that is the hard part!