Benchmark Sporthorses?

[fivestrideline]

@Simkie

Of all the horses–this one, who she’s billing as tricky with behavioral issues–don’t you really WANT to meet the rider and trainer? See them ride the horse? Confirm the program is a good fit?

To be fair, a sale is a sale at a certain point. Especially for a sale barn. I’ll always commend someone for doing right by the horse and really vetting prospective buyers, but short of selling to a known abusive home it’s not exactly the job of the sale barn to decide who qualifies. And often they can’t! What criteria would they use? Plenty of DIY, no-Professional-involved people out there more capable of handling a quirk than a big boarding and training program. Plenty of people who can talk the talk or even straight up lie (who’s to say they’re NOT a trainer with a huge resume?), all while severely underestimating the needs of the horse.

Jess does ask questions of buyers to get a feel for suitability, but if the person lies or innocently overestimates their ability/underestimates the horse, that’s not her fault. She also straight up says she puts riders on the easy horses first before letting them get on the hotter/greener ones, IF they come out for a trial.

I really don’t think it’s the job of the seller to fact check every detail, and it sounds as if she may not have actually owned this horse but was representing him for a friend. Which means she likely didn’t have the final say. We don’t know.

Regardless, I really hope the surgery is a whopping success for this guy and he rehabs into a fabulous riding horse.

ETA: I’m not accusing the buyer of lying or anything, I’m speaking generally

[enjoytheride]

But she asked all those things? Both in the ad and when the buyer asked about the horse. The buyer just stated she did not in fact have a program or a trainer at the time of purchase.

“I was absolutely explicit about him in every single way. I said to you and it’s documented that this is not an ammy horse. He’s big, he’s powerful, he needs xyz and so on. You knew all of that because I was reluctant about him not going to a pro. You said you had a good program for him.”

A seller should not have to go “no I don’t believe you, show up w your trainer so I can see them ride.”

[Bogie]

One thing that isn’t clear to me is whether you went to try the horse before buying him?

[Simkie]

@enjoytheride

But she asked all those things?

Asked what? There are no “she should’ve asked -x-” statements in my post?

This is what Jessica says about buyers & suitability:

@Jleegriffith

Sometimes I do some research and won’t set an appointment because I don’t think someone is the right fit for my program, have heard something negative or myself had a bad experience. I am sure plenty of others do the same. The horse world is small! I’m not interested in selling a horse just to sell a horse. Not saying that was the case but I try to research everything the best I can.

@Jleegriffith

I will try to match anyone with the “right” ottb because I believe their is the right one for everyone but that takes honesty from both the buyer and seller. If you overstate your abilities when you buy a horse it won’t go well. There are plenty of horses that I think anyone could ride and I make that clear. They are easy even when they get zero direction. There are others we state need a rider with a vast skill set and consistent program. Even then sometimes the program just doesn’t fit and well that is just horses for you. It’s sometimes a frustrating sport.

She does show some horses at the farm. Not everything is sold sight unseen. If there is one that’s tricky, one that requires a very specific ride, one that has clear “behavioral” issues…how do you sell that one to someone sight unseen, unless it’s to someone you know? How do you not do a little more due diligence? If you state it needs a program, how do you not talk to the trainer? Learning that the trainer hadn’t worked with the potential purchaser here probably should’ve been a red flag.

There’s a big difference between saying “I don’t believe you, I need to see you come ride,” which is not at all what I’m suggesting, and saying “this horse is for sale to those who can come out and see him in person, because we know he’s got some quirks, and want to ensure–for the horse AND the owner–that it’s a good fit. And because we think he needs to be in a program, please plan on bringing your trainer.”

Jessica clearly doesn’t particularly like dealing with people–farm visits seem rare, and phone calls are apparently not a thing–but sometimes actual conversations or face to face meetings are clarifying and useful and worth it. Like when you’re selling a horse that you think requires something very, very specific.

[Warmblood1]

@Amos

Riddle me this though…The professional in the situation who TOOK these videos and watched this horse go can claim ignorance with impunity, but the amateur buyer should be crucified. Founded in 2007 (in business roughly 17 years). About 300 per year sold, means watching a minimum of 600 horses per year go, that’s over 10,000 horses and probably a low estimate. So, after seeing over 10,000 horses go, been privy to numerous PPEs, and still no eye for a horse in pain? I personally don’t believe her ignorance claim. I think it’s absurd to say she didn’t know this horse was painful.

FWIW, I don’t believe the ignorance claim either and I believe we should hold sellers to high standards. I also disagree with selling difficult/problematic horses into situations that aren’t suitable. Someone was injured riding this horse and that could have been avoided. From what I understand, you are not a pro nor did you have a trainer working with you when purchasing and IMO, that should have been a red flag to the seller. It does the industry no good to loosen standards for sellers and place all blame on buyers. The vet also gave a poor recommendation in this situation which is unfortunate. Obviously rads should have been taken of the back prior to purchase but honestly, you weren’t given the best advice to guide you on that decision. Lesson learned. I’m sorry you are in this situation. The upside is that the horse is lovely and seems to have a tolerant and kind temperament. I hope the surgery is successful and that you have a nice horse to ride. Hopefully your story will help other potential buyers make informed decisions if they do some research before hand.

[Marigold]

@Simkie

I think there’s a very legitimate complaint in Jessica not returning a phone call. Sometimes people just want to be heard. If she’d picked up the phone, and said to @Amos directly what she said here about this horse, this might have been entirely diffused.

Yes and no. Amos makes some good points (particularly where it pertains to the volume sold through this program and the eye that comes along with that, though I disagree that this case was “obviously” a veterinary issue of this scale, particularly given the improvement the horse showed video-to-video), but they are obviously emotional about this issue and angry at the seller. Would you pick up a phone call with someone who says

@Amos

she didn’t give a rat’s tail about the safety of the horse, the buyer, my trainer, or her own catch-riders. And IMO, that is deplorable

@Amos

He also showed actual concern that a human being got hurt so soon after he passed this horse. This is something I have yet to see from you, Ms. Redman.

@Amos

I am in no way attacking your ethics or integrity. In my opinion, you don’t have either to speak of.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think there is anything this seller could say or do that would make this buyer feel better or materially improve the situation. As is normal human instinct when we are in a situation we wish we weren’t, we look for someone to blame. In this case, I think I’d be frustrated with the vet first, then myself (for not bringing a trainer or passing along findings to a vet who knows me), then with the seller, but I understand this buyer feels differently. That is all well and good, but it won’t be resolved with a phone call, and I don’t blame the seller for not picking up the phone so that she could be castigated at the buyer’s convenience.

I may be sensitive to the issue as someone with a customer-facing role, but nothing about that feels productive to me.

[Lunabear1988]

Placing blame doesn’t really help the situation at this point but I hope it’s a learning experience for all involved, if that’s the only thing to take away. There are lessons here for the buyer, the vet and the seller. That’s why with my wobbler horse, I reached out to the seller/trainer. Not to blame but as a professional who cares deeply about the horses in her program, I thought she could learn something and use that knowledge later.

I hope the horse does great after surgery and has a happy live!

[Simkie]

@Marigold we have no idea how much of this frustration has developed simply because Jessica refused to take a call.

Sometimes sellers have to have actual conversations. This, imo, was one of them. If it devolved, Jessica could’ve ended it gracefully, as one occasionally has to do, especially when working in sales. But avoiding it entirely is just really unprofessional.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Simkie

But avoiding it entirely is just really unprofessional.

agreed. especially when my understanding is that she has taken back/consigned prior sale horses that didn’t work out for a buyer. If the seller was confident it was behavioral, I’m surprised there was no offer to take the horse back and find a more appropriate home.

[phoenixrises]

If he’d come straight off the track this is what I would call “tracky” movement (very technical term) however he’d been off since 2021 I think they said. That right hind is a HUGE red flag in pretty much every moment of movement.

[enjoytheride]

@GraceLikeRain

agreed. especially when my understanding is that she has taken back/consigned prior sale horses that didn’t work out for a buyer. If the seller was confident it was behavioral, I’m surprised there was no offer to take the horse back and find a more appropriate home.

We don’t really know what happened because Jessica hasn’t given any extra details beyond when she spoke to the buyer she told them she was concerned as the horse needed to be with a pro and the seller told her she had a trainer and a program (Which she did not). She didn’t return a phone call but did anything else happen to make her not want to do that?

[Simkie]

Spoke to the buyer? When? It doesn’t sound like she’s ever actually spoken to the buyer at all. The buyer has mentioned a few times how she’d really like to actually speak to Jessica, and Jessica won’t do that.

[TWilson]

@Warmblood1

From what I understand, you are not a pro nor did you have a trainer working with you when purchasing and IMO, that should have been a red flag to the seller.

The buyer told the seller that she had a good program for the horse before she bought the horse, then admitted here that she didn’t have a trainer until after the purchase. It’s not the seller’s fault that the buyer lied to her.

[trubandloki]

@TWilson

@Warmblood1

From what I understand, you are not a pro nor did you have a trainer working with you when purchasing and IMO, that should have been a red flag to the seller.

The buyer told the seller that she had a good program for the horse before she bought the horse, then admitted here that she didn’t have a trainer until after the purchase. It’s not the seller’s fault that the buyer lied to her.

I am missing how that changes the whole situation that the horse was advertised as one thing and ended up being something else?

[TWilson]

@trubandloki

I am missing how that changes the whole situation that the horse was advertised as one thing and ended up being something else?

I was commenting on Warmblood1’s assertion that the fact that the buyer did not have a trainer working with her at the time of purchase should have been a red flag to the seller. The horse was advertised as one that needed to be in a good program. The seller was told that the buyer DID have a trainer with a good program. If the buyer had told the seller that she didn’t have a trainer, the seller presumably wouldn’t have sold the horse to her.

[Simkie]

@TWilson

The buyer told the seller that she had a good program for the horse before she bought the horse, then admitted here that she didn’t have a trainer until after the purchase. It’s not the seller’s fault that the buyer lied to her.

I don’t see a lie. The buyer was in a new area, found a trainer, found the horse, and the horse went directly into a program with the trainer. Buyer said horse would be in a program, horse was in a program.

In hindsight, Amos admits that the trainer should have been more involved in the purchase of the horse. But we don’t know what we don’t know, and apparently Jessica never made any inquires regarding the length of the relationship, or spoke with the trainer directly.

[enjoytheride]

She spoke to the buyer when they purchased the horse regarding the horses need for a pro ride. The buyer says Jessica won’t answer a phone call but hasn’t elaborated if there were emails or texts and what was said. Jessica has taken back horses before when they weren’t as advertised and she doesn’t ghost people as soon as the check is cashed so it would be unusual if she did. Maybe she will elaborate.

I also think you’re putting a lot on a seller to ask a buyer how long they’ve been with a trainer or to speak with them when a buyer says the right things. She has refused to sell horses to people before because they weren’t suitable.

[TWilson]

@Simkie

I don’t see a lie. The buyer was in a new area, found a trainer, found the horse, and the horse went directly into a program with the trainer. Buyer said horse would be in a program, horse was in a program.

In hindsight, Amos admits that the trainer should have been more involved in the purchase of the horse. But we don’t know what we don’t know, and apparently Jessica never made any inquires regarding the length of the relationship, or spoke with the trainer directly.

I’m definitely in the minority because I don’t blame the seller anywhere near as much as most people here are doing. She is in the business of selling horses, not counseling or babysitting buyers. The buyer led the seller to believe that she had a relationship with a trainer with a good program when in fact she did not at the time she said it. That to me is a lie. The trainer couldn’t have been more involved in the purchase of the horse because the relationship did not start until after the purchase.

This seller is not for everyone and she freely admits it. Clearly this buyer got herself in over her head. Had she admitted at the time of purchase that she was not working with a trainer, all of this might have been avoided.

[Marigold]

@Simkie

But avoiding it entirely is just really unprofessional.

She didn’t avoid it entirely - she offered to discuss it in writing, which is what I would do when dealing with someone with this level of strong feeling. I do think I would have scheduled a call, which she did not, but I understand not taking a cold call from someone who is clearly this upset.

(I’m coming across like I know her - I do not. I’ve window shopped her listings, but I’ve never interacted with her personally in any way. She may be great, she may be terrible, I have no way of knowing. Just adding my thoughts based on my customer experiences in a completely non-horse-related profession).

[Simkie]

@enjoytheride

I also think you’re putting a lot on a seller to ask a buyer how long they’ve been with a trainer or to speak with them when a buyer says the right things. She has refused to sell horses to people before because they weren’t suitable.

You think I’m putting a lot on a seller to do a little extra due diligence on a horse marketed as “pro ride” and “behavioral issues”??

This is probably a horse that shouldn’t’ve been offered to the public at all if she thought he was that complex and needed something so specific. This is exactly when you pull out your rolodex of people you know who can work with a horse like this and offer him to them directly.

But if she’s going to offer him publicly with a lot of caveats, then yeah–there is SOME onus on her to get him into the right spot.

Or, if you think that some verbiage around it on her ads is enough, then just slap a “buy it now” button on there, and caveat emptor. But then all of this “I work hard to find a good fit between horse and buyer” is really just fluff.