Benchmark Sporthorses?

[barnesthenoble]

@beowulf

He looks downright miserable in the water video to me.

I’d be curious to hear why you think he looks more miserable in the water video (I assume the second ride video?) than the first ride. I agree he looks NQR but his demeanor in general looks somewhat improved to my eye over the first video. He’s definitely not thrilled with the right lead canter in the latter half of the video, but does settle somewhat towards the end. He’s generally fussy in his canter departs which again, in hindsight we recognize as a symptom but it’s not uncommon for green horses coming into work. Overall he looks fairly keen. Not comfortable, but not worse than the first video. He’s very unhappy in the first video to my eye.

Admittedly I’m watching them on a phone so maybe I’m missing something. Overall though I see a fairly linear improvement in what is shown in the videos from Ride 1 to the last video available.

I agree that this presentation is seen all too often in horses of many disciplines and levels of experience. I’ve seen quite a few nice young warmbloods who present like these videos for their first rides. Some improve and some don’t. I see some very pissy horses when I scribe at dressage shows, too. It can be really hard to parse out what is pain, what is learned behavior, what is stress-induced, etc.

[steelerino]

Running him off his feet is an attempt to make him look less balky. I guarantee you if they were to try to ask for a canter from a walk or normal trot he would through his head up, hollow his back, and resist. All his canter transitions are done from that running trot for a reason. IMO

[barnesthenoble]

I mean, he’s pretty darn green in these videos so I think asking for a canter from a walk on the second ride they’ve done on him while trying to get him fit and figure out how he wants to be ridden would be…well, foolish. And a LOT of horses early on rush into the canter while they’re trying to figure out what the aids mean. He still looks pretty damn balky about the canter to me in the second video so I’m not sure what they’d be hiding, and he still throws his head up, hollows his back, and generally resists in the canter transitions. But they don’t get as much of the stuck in place up and down resistance that they had in the first video. They’re trying to troubleshoot what works for him. I don’t see anything inherently wrong with that.

They’re very open that they ride their horses very forward in the beginning and it does truly help a lot of horses. When they feel like they can go forward you do generally get less resistance than when they feel bottled up. I’ve seen a lot more horses explode from getting packaged up before they’re ready than I have from horses being ridden forward. And sometimes to install forward you need to go really forward, even to the point of rushing.

ETA: I’m not saying that I think the horse looks great or that I don’t see issues. Absolutely I do. But I can see the thought process behind why they rode him this way.

[blue_heron]

Obviously, disappointed for the buyer that her horse who she clearly cares about now didn’t turn out how she wanted that she feels he was falsely advertised. That really sucks. He does look like a sweet horse.

But agree that horse is lame in the videos. He’s uneven behind and holding himself in the hind end. If I hadn’t known after reading this thread what the issue is, I could blame it on a number of things-- ulcers, hocks/SI/stifle pain being exacerbated by the rider sitting on the back of the saddle, bridle lameness from tension, maybe back (probably would not have been my first thought, honestly). If the seller has only ridden the horse once or twice and thinks that the unevenness is a result of tension or purely behavioral, well, that’s their opinion. And it could be right in some cases.

[skydy]

He doesn’t look right in the video where he is not being ridden, so I wouldn’t blame it on the tack or the rider.

[Lunabear1988]

Yes but more curious since she has posted on Facebook at length that she thinks kissing spine isn’t a big deal usually. I’m just curious if her views would change on him now that we know what’s going on in the back.

[Amberley]

@Texarkana

The horse buying world has gotten a bit ridiculous with their expectations of wanting “experts” to make guarantees of health or potential.

In fairness a lot of people are buying off video these days. Buying off video requires you to put a lot of trust in the seller, it’s something I just won’t do at all unless the seller is someone I have known a long, long time or its a reputable auction for young stock. I would never buy a flipped horse from a video, I’ve just seen too many horses that are very different in person.

[enjoytheride]

MOST if not ALL green horses rush into the canter transition and you create balky issues by NOT riding them forward. A walk Canter transition is not something green horses need to be focusing on. I can see the thought process, is this just a balky horse who needs to be ridden forward? The answer seems to be no, but they probably didn’t know that his first or second ride.

[Sticky_Situation]

A green horse inverting in canter departs or running into the canter, in the absence of other major issues, is not something I’d consider a red flag for a major underlying problem.

The way this horse tended to hop behind in the canter, and the way in the jumping video it seemed like most times he landed from a fence he was considering bucking (and not in a way that looked like “I’m just having fun and want to play”) … those are red flags.

[skydy]

@beowulf

It’s unfortunate, but I see a lot of horses with this level of discomfort.

I hate to hear that.

[quietann]

Yes… and the number of times he gets a few strides of awkward canter and then brought down into trot again. That’s not an “oh he’s just green” thing.

[deweydee]

I don’t know that her original post was tailored to unsound horses who have abnormal rads. Her post said “zero clinical signs/issues” multiple times. Symptomatic with bad rads ~(always)= bad rads being symptomatic was how I read it. This horse would be the first camp, but presumably there were no rads to consider.

All to say, I’d never touch a KS appearing horse again - clinical signs or no. There’s the chance of falling down the chicken or egg rabbit hole and ending up older, much poorer, and without the horse you dreamed of… and that’s too much risk for this BTDT buyer, even if it means passing on a non symptomatic “was never going to have an actual issue” gem. So, I guess I’m the market the post was targeted at now.

[beowulf]

His expression. You(g) have to be careful about observing fewer expressed stress signals and conflating it to mean “happy horse”. Sometimes it just means the horse has learned helplessness and thinks no one is in their corner. In the video with the water, his eye says a lot. I think that video his rider really figured out how to ride him in a way that shows his best qualities but the lameness is still there.

[Bogie]

I have a lot of sympathy for the buyer. It’s so easy to get seduced by a flashy horse, especially when it’s ridden by a pro.

I bought an OTTB last year that I finally realized was going to hurt me and found him a home with a trainer. I did not buy from Benchmark, although I’ve drooled over Jess’s horses, ultimately I decided that I wanted a horse with more training and a longer history.

I bought my horse from his breeder. He’d raced only 4 times and theoretically had been her dressage horse after. Much of that training was not apparent when I brought him home – and I even had a very talented rider come to help me. When I started to have issues (rearing), the previous owner told me he’d never, ever behave that way and implied I’d done something to cause the problems. I went back to the original video taken when I tried him and saw that all the warning signs were there. I had written off issues that should have been red flags due to him being out of work for a year. 20/20 hindsight said I should have walked away but there were extenuating circumstances and the horse was gorgeous. He was vastly underweight when I saw him and it was 92 degrees, so I don’t think I got a good snapshot. I’ve restarted 5 OTTBs before and thought I was up to the task.

My first impressions upon seeing that horse’s videos were 1) He’s gorgeous, 2) He’s uncomfortable and 3) He’s not an easy ride.

I would have passed simply because he looked hot, stiff, and physically uncomfortable but I can see why a buyer would want to own that horse. With so much video available, I would likely have sent it over to my vet for an opinion first, but that’s just me. I thought the horse’s movement improved over the course of the videos but the first under saddle video had a lot of lame steps and tail wringing and he looked uncomfortable landing over those very small fences.

@Marigold

The trainer could have identified things such as “that is a very competent rider on that horse, and it still doesn’t look wholly easy - perhaps we should look for another beautiful horse who is somewhat more straightforward”.

I do wonder about the role the trainer played in giving this horse two thumbs up.

I haven’t seen the ad that went with the video so I can’t say if I think the horse was misrepresented, but there was a lot of video on line to review.

[Amos]

Good eye. Asking him to use the right hind is when he would blow.

[Amos]

This will be my last response on this topic.

100% I made horrible rookie horse buying mistakes. Long list. Many learning points for me. I’m responding to the OP who asked about people’s purchasing experience with this broker. My experience was not positive and I am elucidating why.

I have a few points that I do not want to go missed, that maybe I was not clear on.

1. I have NEVER blamed this horse for anything. He is an absolute saint for allowing anyone to sit on him given his very real pain. His demeanor cannot be beat. Hands down.
2. To clarify, I started working with my trainer and vet AFTER I purchased Final Deception. I had just moved to the area. Neither my trainer nor my vet ever watched the videos prior to the sale. Yes, I should have had an objective party at my side. Acknowledged.
3. This horse was OTT for 2 years. The person that owned him for 2 years was supposedly Ms. Redman’s good friend. Nothing was in any way attributed to OTT aches and pains, by anyone involved ever.
4. The amateur in this situation should be able to trust their vet. If the vet, the professional who has a legal and ethical responsibility to represent the buyers’ interests says no XRs needed, it’s not unreasonable to trust that expert opinion. Would I do it again, heck no, I would now insist. Acknowledged.
5. Riddle me this though…The professional in the situation who TOOK these videos and watched this horse go can claim ignorance with impunity, but the amateur buyer should be crucified. Founded in 2007 (in business roughly 17 years). About 300 per year sold, means watching a minimum of 600 horses per year go, that’s over 10,000 horses and probably a low estimate. So, after seeing over 10,000 horses go, been privy to numerous PPEs, and still no eye for a horse in pain? I personally don’t believe her ignorance claim. I think it’s absurd to say she didn’t know this horse was painful. To the OP question, and this goes for any broker, I would not recommend a broker that can’t spot a horse in pain, nor would I recommend a broker that spotted a horse in pain and stuck their head in the sand.
6. Just because I’m a terrible buyer, doesn’t negate Ms. Redman being a terrible broker. This is my opinion. The reputable brokers I know, would never pretend this behavior wasn’t alarming. In my opinion, she didn’t give a rat’s tail about the safety of the horse, the buyer, my trainer, or her own catch-riders. And IMO, that is deplorable and the primary reason I would not recommend her. The difference between us is that I can learn and do better. She should know better, but IMO chose not to do better and that’s dangerous.
7. Ms. Redman, maybe you shouldn’t reply since you don’t believe in KS. Maybe you should return phone calls though. The reputable professionals that I know do return phone calls. For your own education, it makes you look like you are hiding something. Funny who did call? The PPE vet.
8. So, about the PPE vet. I asked him for clarification, “Did you ever watch the sale videos?” He stated, “No.” He very clearly stated that he absolutely does NOT regularly watch sale videos. Who’s lying? Someone is and it’s him or it’s you. He also told me that he DID ask you, and I am paraphrasing, if there was any questionable behavior to which you replied, “No.” Again, who’s lying? He also freely admitted that he stated the horse didn’t need XRs. He further stated how that was probably a bad move on his part as it increased his liability. He also showed actual concern that a human being got hurt so soon after he passed this horse. This is something I have yet to see from you, Ms. Redman.

Jessica, I really like my horse too and as well think he is super talented. And let me be crystal clear. I am in no way attacking your ethics or integrity. In my opinion, you don’t have either to speak of.

For those of you interested in following his journey, I do post on the KS FB page. I’m hoping to someday make a FB page for his journey.

[trubandloki]

Thank you for the additional information @Amos!

You make some very good points.

I am sorry that you are going thru this, but in the big picture, it sounds like this horse landed in a good spot for the horse. You are giving it the care it needs to hopefully be comfortable, not just pushing him forward expecting him to deal with it. Great job!

Jingling for both of you.

[Sticky_Situation]

I think it’s clear Amos cares about the horse and has never blamed him for the situation. I’m glad he has an owner that’s trying to do right by him.

But this is the issue, and the risk, with buying sight unseen from flippers based on videos. I’m sure it’s a frustrating situation, and unfortunately it’s often human nature to try to place blame when things go badly. But I do take issue a little with the buyer being so willing to look past the signs of discomfort in the videos and buy the horse sight unseen without input from the trainer that was going to be riding the horse (which was seemingly per to the seller advertised as something best suited to a professional — always a red flag to me that it’s either hot as Hades or has some pretty major issues to work through) … and then subsequently turning around when it didn’t work out well and putting the seller on public blast for not being able to recognize all the obvious signs of pain the horse was showing (which the buyer also completely discounted and purchased the horse with a minimal PPE anyway) and essentially blaming her for the trainer getting bucked off and injured. I think it’s fair to let people know you don’t recommend the seller because you had a bad experience with horse that ended up being unsound due to kissing spine, but I think it’s a bit much to publicly trash the seller as incompetent and not caring about anyone’s safety for overlooking all the things that you also overlooked when buying the horse.

[Saskatoonian]

This thread is making me a lot more sympathetic to sellers who will only deal with trainers, not ammies buying their own horses. To the extent there’s a legit complaint here, it’s with the vet, who worked for the buyer, not the seller, who is by definition opposed to the buyer.

[Simkie]

I think there’s a very legitimate complaint in Jessica not returning a phone call. Sometimes people just want to be heard. If she’d picked up the phone, and said to @Amos directly what she said here about this horse, this might have been entirely diffused.

Sometimes in business you do actually have to talk to someone.

I also struggle to understand how she let this particular horse go to a sight unseen sale. Of all the horses–this one, who she’s billing as tricky with behavioral issues–don’t you really WANT to meet the rider and trainer? See them ride the horse? Confirm the program is a good fit?