Yes but more curious since she has posted on Facebook at length that she thinks kissing spine isn’t a big deal usually. I’m just curious if her views would change on him now that we know what’s going on in the back.
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MOST if not ALL green horses rush into the canter transition and you create balky issues by NOT riding them forward. A walk Canter transition is not something green horses need to be focusing on. I can see the thought process, is this just a balky horse who needs to be ridden forward? The answer seems to be no, but they probably didn’t know that his first or second ride.
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A green horse inverting in canter departs or running into the canter, in the absence of other major issues, is not something I’d consider a red flag for a major underlying problem.
The way this horse tended to hop behind in the canter, and the way in the jumping video it seemed like most times he landed from a fence he was considering bucking (and not in a way that looked like “I’m just having fun and want to play”) … those are red flags.
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I hate to hear that. 
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Yes… and the number of times he gets a few strides of awkward canter and then brought down into trot again. That’s not an “oh he’s just green” thing.
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I don’t know that her original post was tailored to unsound horses who have abnormal rads. Her post said “zero clinical signs/issues” multiple times. Symptomatic with bad rads ~(always)= bad rads being symptomatic was how I read it. This horse would be the first camp, but presumably there were no rads to consider.
All to say, I’d never touch a KS appearing horse again - clinical signs or no. There’s the chance of falling down the chicken or egg rabbit hole and ending up older, much poorer, and without the horse you dreamed of… and that’s too much risk for this BTDT buyer, even if it means passing on a non symptomatic “was never going to have an actual issue” gem. So, I guess I’m the market the post was targeted at now.
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His expression. You(g) have to be careful about observing fewer expressed stress signals and conflating it to mean “happy horse”. Sometimes it just means the horse has learned helplessness and thinks no one is in their corner. In the video with the water, his eye says a lot. I think that video his rider really figured out how to ride him in a way that shows his best qualities but the lameness is still there.
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I have a lot of sympathy for the buyer. It’s so easy to get seduced by a flashy horse, especially when it’s ridden by a pro.
I bought an OTTB last year that I finally realized was going to hurt me and found him a home with a trainer. I did not buy from Benchmark, although I’ve drooled over Jess’s horses, ultimately I decided that I wanted a horse with more training and a longer history.
I bought my horse from his breeder. He’d raced only 4 times and theoretically had been her dressage horse after. Much of that training was not apparent when I brought him home – and I even had a very talented rider come to help me. When I started to have issues (rearing), the previous owner told me he’d never, ever behave that way and implied I’d done something to cause the problems. I went back to the original video taken when I tried him and saw that all the warning signs were there. I had written off issues that should have been red flags due to him being out of work for a year. 20/20 hindsight said I should have walked away but there were extenuating circumstances and the horse was gorgeous. He was vastly underweight when I saw him and it was 92 degrees, so I don’t think I got a good snapshot. I’ve restarted 5 OTTBs before and thought I was up to the task.
My first impressions upon seeing that horse’s videos were 1) He’s gorgeous, 2) He’s uncomfortable and 3) He’s not an easy ride.
I would have passed simply because he looked hot, stiff, and physically uncomfortable but I can see why a buyer would want to own that horse. With so much video available, I would likely have sent it over to my vet for an opinion first, but that’s just me. I thought the horse’s movement improved over the course of the videos but the first under saddle video had a lot of lame steps and tail wringing and he looked uncomfortable landing over those very small fences.
I do wonder about the role the trainer played in giving this horse two thumbs up.
I haven’t seen the ad that went with the video so I can’t say if I think the horse was misrepresented, but there was a lot of video on line to review.
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Good eye. Asking him to use the right hind is when he would blow.
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This will be my last response on this topic.
100% I made horrible rookie horse buying mistakes. Long list. Many learning points for me. I’m responding to the OP who asked about people’s purchasing experience with this broker. My experience was not positive and I am elucidating why.
I have a few points that I do not want to go missed, that maybe I was not clear on.
- I have NEVER blamed this horse for anything. He is an absolute saint for allowing anyone to sit on him given his very real pain. His demeanor cannot be beat. Hands down.
- To clarify, I started working with my trainer and vet AFTER I purchased Final Deception. I had just moved to the area. Neither my trainer nor my vet ever watched the videos prior to the sale. Yes, I should have had an objective party at my side. Acknowledged.
- This horse was OTT for 2 years. The person that owned him for 2 years was supposedly Ms. Redman’s good friend. Nothing was in any way attributed to OTT aches and pains, by anyone involved ever.
- The amateur in this situation should be able to trust their vet. If the vet, the professional who has a legal and ethical responsibility to represent the buyers’ interests says no XRs needed, it’s not unreasonable to trust that expert opinion. Would I do it again, heck no, I would now insist. Acknowledged.
- Riddle me this though…The professional in the situation who TOOK these videos and watched this horse go can claim ignorance with impunity, but the amateur buyer should be crucified. Founded in 2007 (in business roughly 17 years). About 300 per year sold, means watching a minimum of 600 horses per year go, that’s over 10,000 horses and probably a low estimate. So, after seeing over 10,000 horses go, been privy to numerous PPEs, and still no eye for a horse in pain? I personally don’t believe her ignorance claim. I think it’s absurd to say she didn’t know this horse was painful. To the OP question, and this goes for any broker, I would not recommend a broker that can’t spot a horse in pain, nor would I recommend a broker that spotted a horse in pain and stuck their head in the sand.
- Just because I’m a terrible buyer, doesn’t negate Ms. Redman being a terrible broker. This is my opinion. The reputable brokers I know, would never pretend this behavior wasn’t alarming. In my opinion, she didn’t give a rat’s tail about the safety of the horse, the buyer, my trainer, or her own catch-riders. And IMO, that is deplorable and the primary reason I would not recommend her. The difference between us is that I can learn and do better. She should know better, but IMO chose not to do better and that’s dangerous.
- Ms. Redman, maybe you shouldn’t reply since you don’t believe in KS. Maybe you should return phone calls though. The reputable professionals that I know do return phone calls. For your own education, it makes you look like you are hiding something. Funny who did call? The PPE vet.
- So, about the PPE vet. I asked him for clarification, “Did you ever watch the sale videos?” He stated, “No.” He very clearly stated that he absolutely does NOT regularly watch sale videos. Who’s lying? Someone is and it’s him or it’s you. He also told me that he DID ask you, and I am paraphrasing, if there was any questionable behavior to which you replied, “No.” Again, who’s lying? He also freely admitted that he stated the horse didn’t need XRs. He further stated how that was probably a bad move on his part as it increased his liability. He also showed actual concern that a human being got hurt so soon after he passed this horse. This is something I have yet to see from you, Ms. Redman.
Jessica, I really like my horse too and as well think he is super talented. And let me be crystal clear. I am in no way attacking your ethics or integrity. In my opinion, you don’t have either to speak of.
For those of you interested in following his journey, I do post on the KS FB page. I’m hoping to someday make a FB page for his journey.
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Thank you for the additional information @Amos!
You make some very good points.
I am sorry that you are going thru this, but in the big picture, it sounds like this horse landed in a good spot for the horse. You are giving it the care it needs to hopefully be comfortable, not just pushing him forward expecting him to deal with it. Great job!
Jingling for both of you.
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I think it’s clear Amos cares about the horse and has never blamed him for the situation. I’m glad he has an owner that’s trying to do right by him.
But this is the issue, and the risk, with buying sight unseen from flippers based on videos. I’m sure it’s a frustrating situation, and unfortunately it’s often human nature to try to place blame when things go badly. But I do take issue a little with the buyer being so willing to look past the signs of discomfort in the videos and buy the horse sight unseen without input from the trainer that was going to be riding the horse (which was seemingly per to the seller advertised as something best suited to a professional — always a red flag to me that it’s either hot as Hades or has some pretty major issues to work through) … and then subsequently turning around when it didn’t work out well and putting the seller on public blast for not being able to recognize all the obvious signs of pain the horse was showing (which the buyer also completely discounted and purchased the horse with a minimal PPE anyway) and essentially blaming her for the trainer getting bucked off and injured. I think it’s fair to let people know you don’t recommend the seller because you had a bad experience with horse that ended up being unsound due to kissing spine, but I think it’s a bit much to publicly trash the seller as incompetent and not caring about anyone’s safety for overlooking all the things that you also overlooked when buying the horse.
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This thread is making me a lot more sympathetic to sellers who will only deal with trainers, not ammies buying their own horses. To the extent there’s a legit complaint here, it’s with the vet, who worked for the buyer, not the seller, who is by definition opposed to the buyer.
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I think there’s a very legitimate complaint in Jessica not returning a phone call. Sometimes people just want to be heard. If she’d picked up the phone, and said to @Amos directly what she said here about this horse, this might have been entirely diffused.
Sometimes in business you do actually have to talk to someone.
I also struggle to understand how she let this particular horse go to a sight unseen sale. Of all the horses–this one, who she’s billing as tricky with behavioral issues–don’t you really WANT to meet the rider and trainer? See them ride the horse? Confirm the program is a good fit?
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To be fair, a sale is a sale at a certain point. Especially for a sale barn. I’ll always commend someone for doing right by the horse and really vetting prospective buyers, but short of selling to a known abusive home it’s not exactly the job of the sale barn to decide who qualifies. And often they can’t! What criteria would they use? Plenty of DIY, no-Professional-involved people out there more capable of handling a quirk than a big boarding and training program. Plenty of people who can talk the talk or even straight up lie (who’s to say they’re NOT a trainer with a huge resume?), all while severely underestimating the needs of the horse.
Jess does ask questions of buyers to get a feel for suitability, but if the person lies or innocently overestimates their ability/underestimates the horse, that’s not her fault. She also straight up says she puts riders on the easy horses first before letting them get on the hotter/greener ones, IF they come out for a trial.
I really don’t think it’s the job of the seller to fact check every detail, and it sounds as if she may not have actually owned this horse but was representing him for a friend. Which means she likely didn’t have the final say. We don’t know.
Regardless, I really hope the surgery is a whopping success for this guy and he rehabs into a fabulous riding horse.
ETA: I’m not accusing the buyer of lying or anything, I’m speaking generally
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But she asked all those things? Both in the ad and when the buyer asked about the horse. The buyer just stated she did not in fact have a program or a trainer at the time of purchase.
“I was absolutely explicit about him in every single way. I said to you and it’s documented that this is not an ammy horse. He’s big, he’s powerful, he needs xyz and so on. You knew all of that because I was reluctant about him not going to a pro. You said you had a good program for him.”
A seller should not have to go “no I don’t believe you, show up w your trainer so I can see them ride.”
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One thing that isn’t clear to me is whether you went to try the horse before buying him?
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Asked what? There are no “she should’ve asked -x-” statements in my post?
This is what Jessica says about buyers & suitability:
She does show some horses at the farm. Not everything is sold sight unseen. If there is one that’s tricky, one that requires a very specific ride, one that has clear “behavioral” issues…how do you sell that one to someone sight unseen, unless it’s to someone you know? How do you not do a little more due diligence? If you state it needs a program, how do you not talk to the trainer? Learning that the trainer hadn’t worked with the potential purchaser here probably should’ve been a red flag.
There’s a big difference between saying “I don’t believe you, I need to see you come ride,” which is not at all what I’m suggesting, and saying “this horse is for sale to those who can come out and see him in person, because we know he’s got some quirks, and want to ensure–for the horse AND the owner–that it’s a good fit. And because we think he needs to be in a program, please plan on bringing your trainer.”
Jessica clearly doesn’t particularly like dealing with people–farm visits seem rare, and phone calls are apparently not a thing–but sometimes actual conversations or face to face meetings are clarifying and useful and worth it. Like when you’re selling a horse that you think requires something very, very specific.
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FWIW, I don’t believe the ignorance claim either and I believe we should hold sellers to high standards. I also disagree with selling difficult/problematic horses into situations that aren’t suitable. Someone was injured riding this horse and that could have been avoided. From what I understand, you are not a pro nor did you have a trainer working with you when purchasing and IMO, that should have been a red flag to the seller. It does the industry no good to loosen standards for sellers and place all blame on buyers. The vet also gave a poor recommendation in this situation which is unfortunate. Obviously rads should have been taken of the back prior to purchase but honestly, you weren’t given the best advice to guide you on that decision. Lesson learned. I’m sorry you are in this situation. The upside is that the horse is lovely and seems to have a tolerant and kind temperament. I hope the surgery is successful and that you have a nice horse to ride. Hopefully your story will help other potential buyers make informed decisions if they do some research before hand.
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Yes and no. Amos makes some good points (particularly where it pertains to the volume sold through this program and the eye that comes along with that, though I disagree that this case was “obviously” a veterinary issue of this scale, particularly given the improvement the horse showed video-to-video), but they are obviously emotional about this issue and angry at the seller. Would you pick up a phone call with someone who says
I could be wrong, but I don’t think there is anything this seller could say or do that would make this buyer feel better or materially improve the situation. As is normal human instinct when we are in a situation we wish we weren’t, we look for someone to blame. In this case, I think I’d be frustrated with the vet first, then myself (for not bringing a trainer or passing along findings to a vet who knows me), then with the seller, but I understand this buyer feels differently. That is all well and good, but it won’t be resolved with a phone call, and I don’t blame the seller for not picking up the phone so that she could be castigated at the buyer’s convenience.
I may be sensitive to the issue as someone with a customer-facing role, but nothing about that feels productive to me.
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