Benchmark Sporthorses?

[McGurk]

Somewhat rhetorical question:

If I were in the business of sourcing, restarting and selling OTTBs, and wanted to absolutely guarantee their soundness and be able to warrant them sound to a prospective buyer, how much more money would I have to put into the horse, and then get out of the horse when I resold?

I’m thinking it would move the price point by $5 - 10K, maybe more, because now I’m also going to have to keep the horse and work with it longer as well, to make sure any idiosyncrasies are behavioral/left over from race training, not underlying physical issues.

To quote my post way, way earlier in this thread “I think she knows exactly what her niche market it is … (people) who are capable of making a decision on horse quickly and can tolerate a certain amount of risk at the price point she’s selling.”

I think sometimes people’s budget doesn’t align with their risk tolerance.

[Against_All_Odds2]

Very curious if the current owner was working with a trainer while purchasing this horse and if that trainer earned a commission on the sale for assessing videos posted in this thread…

[Lunabear1988]

To be fair, I have not used the vet who did the PPE again because they missed another issue that I thought I also saw… My fault for sure, but it did led me to lose trust in that vet (I had only used them one other time so it wasn’t a long standing relationship.)

But I did not blame the seller. To be fair though, the interaction was about as different as you could get from the seller that this thread is about. She was extremely humble and seemed like she really wanted to learn from the experience. In horse training, figuring out the line of what’s behavioral/young horses or what’s pain is very tricky and we are always learning.

And yes big lesson on trying to listen to my gut. I’m human. So was the seller. And the vet. We all, unfortunately, make mistakes. What matters is how we handle them and what we learn.

[fivestrideline]

That’s essentially what I’m saying. Buyer beware and I don’t think the horse was egregiously misrepresented or anything.

I do think any person who sees the number of horses that go through a place like benchmark would be able to tell that the horse was EXTREMELY uncomfortable. Adding in that the horse didn’t come straight off the track and supposedly had some known history, and I think it was a bit disingenuous to make such a long, multi paragraph essay about how the horse’s issues are all behavioral. Not dishonest, just a bit of that “car salesman” vibe that I don’t love as a buyer.

I have learned over the years to demand things from vets in PPEs and even with my own horses. But I learned the hard way - we are generally taught to defer to the professionals in ANY field. I’m this way about human healthcare as well, FWIW, and that was also learned the hard way.

I’m a person who is willing to take on more risk than most, but the ad for this horse juxtaposed with the videos had me throwing red flags everywhere. Again I’m not saying the seller was dishonest or that the buyer was right in the way they handled it, I’m just saying that the buyer beware banner was waving in my head.

[Warmblood1]

I’m just catching up on this thread but for anyone questioning the horse’s soundness based on the free movement video, please watch this video - It should be abundantly clear to an experienced horse person that this horse is unsound, let alone being able to feel this under saddle.

Final Deception first ride here 11 20 23

I really hope the issues resolve with this horse because he seems like such a good egg.

[Lunabear1988]

Okay hypothetical question. Let’s say Amos DID X-ray the back at the PPE and found what they had found. Let’s say they didn’t buy the horse. I’m curious what the seller would have done with the horse since she’s talked a lot about how kissing spine is often not a big deal and or mostly from bad riding/management? Because I’m not sure how you can keep thinking that it’s behavioral after x-rays like that?

Just pondering. I know she discloses known issues but would her opinion have changed on the horse knowing what’s going on in his back?

[enjoytheride]

I the seller would have updated the add with that information as she has done in the past since it was now a known issue. Even a simple “horse was PPEd and buyer passed, PPE available” something like that.

[Lunabear1988]

Yes, not saying she would omit the information or hide it, I know she wouldn’t. But is the horse offered at a discount? Would she still say it’s no big deal, like she has with others?

Just pondering per the discussion. Not accusing anyone.

[enjoytheride]

I think that if she felt it was actually an issue it would have been a discount or open to negotiation since it would then be new information. I think that’s pretty standard for any seller that posts that the horse was passed on in a PPE

[fivestrideline]

Absolutely. I’ve seen a few ads from others of “reduced due to findings at vetting” or even “KS found on PPE, rads available”, usually with a paragraph about how it may or may not be an issue. KS is one of those things that may not bother a handful of buyers, especially at the right price for a big flashy horse. Like navicular changes or a chip or something of that nature.

I do not think Benchmark would hide the findings, they’ve certainly posted about findings before. Whether they think it’s a valid reason to pass or not is another matter

[barnesthenoble]

After sitting and watching through all of the videos, I will say there is substantial improvement over the course of the four videos. Do I think the horse still looks NQR? Sure. Can I say for certain that the remaining NQR is from needing to develop fitness and strength vs a physical issue? Nope. Would I have purchased the horse without extensive rads? No. But I do think the horse looks a lot better under saddle in the second jumping video than he does in the first ride video. Do I think a reasonable person could observe the improvement over the course of multiple rides and time, and think that the issues were primarily behavioral and that with the right program and development of fitness, the horse would continue to improve? Sure. I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong about Jessica’s team hanging on to the horse for a while, seeing significant improvement with their regimen, and concluding the issue was behavioral and not digging deep into imaging and vet work on a sales horse.

She has always been very clear that a buyer can image everything they want on a horse and should if that’s what makes them comfortable. I don’t particularly love how she sometimes complains about buyers passing on things, but it’s also her page and she’s allowed to be human and share her difference of opinion. YMMV as always and it doesn’t make her a bad person or seller that she vocalizes it IMO.

I’ve learned the hard way in horse ownership (completely separate from buying) that I need to trust my gut and push for the imaging I want even if the vet doesn’t think it’s necessary. And these are on horses I already own, not ones I’m trying to buy. I’ve had vets from top University hospitals, well-respected lameness vets, well-regarded local hospitals, the whole nine yards push back on imaging I wanted because “well I think it’s xyz and I don’t want you to waste your money.” I’ve gone along with that enough times and it ending up being the thing I was worried about, except now it’s been six months and $2k in injections and imaging other things before we’ve found the problem. Or cases where I wanted to image before injecting even though they were “sure there was OA in the stifle” (stifles were beautiful, btw, it was a suspensory issue, which they insisted wasn’t possible).

Plus has nobody ever had a vet tell them “yeah things are improving, I don’t see any need to go down a rabbit hole of imaging, keep going, call me if it gets worse”? Because I can also absolutely see a sporthorse vet to a high-volume and capable sales barn saying that and I wouldn’t think there was anything nefarious going on from the seller or the vet. For all we know Jessica did have her vet look at him and the vet gave him the all clear to keep going based on what the vet saw on that day.

For a PPE, I wouldn’t allow a vet other than possibly my own (and even then, I would push for them if I felt strongly about it) to dictate what I do or don’t image on a PPE. Vets are human, too, and at the end of the day they’re also not the ones taking on the responsibility of buying the horse. They can only speak from their personal experience and opinion. I personally find it a bit distasteful that folks are implying the vets are being more lackadaisical about backs because of their relationship with Jessica.

I’ve certainly seen horses Jessica has posted that set off my NQR bells, but my own experience has taught me to be pickier about some things than others. And I’ve seen several of those horses end up being just fine in the right program and end up running around making their owners happy. Those owners have more risk tolerance than I do, and that’s great! And others end up with stories like this, while I think a lot are just somewhere in the middle.

I’ll just reiterate what I said upthread: horses are heartbreakers. And it sucks. And I am truly sorry for the owner who bought Amos and that it’s turned out the way it has. I really hope he improves with surgery and can be a comfortable, safe riding horse for you or for someone. I’m really sorry you had to learn these lessons the hard and expensive way. It really sucks.

[hb]

I think she would have added something like that, horse PPEd and buyer passed, then gone and complained on Facebook about uneducated buyers passing on perfectly good horses for imaginary issues like kissing spine. That tracks with what I’ve seen on her FB in the past and is why I stopped following her and her business page and probably wouldn’t consider buying a horse from her. Too public for my taste.

She also does usually label most issues with horses as behaviorial. I don’t think she’s being nefarious, I think she does truly believe that.

Maybe seeing so many horses come off the track a little body sore has reset her eye and that riding video that many people on this thread think looks like a sore horse really does look like a normal horse being evasive to her. I don’t know.

I don’t think she intentionally misrepresents horses. I have heard of really nice horses coming from her barn and doing well in sport. I’ve heard of horses coming from her barn with issues that pop up later, like this one. I think with the volume that she does, it’s to be expected that there are some very nice, sucessful stories and some very sad stories such as this. If I were to ever consider buying from her program, I’d vet the horse and do every x-ray imaginable. For the price point, I could afford an expensive vetting. I’d do that with any horse I was buying off the track.

Honestly, even if I were buying a horse that looked perfectly sound and was performing at the level I plan to go, I’d still get, at a minimum, x-rays of feet, hocks, neck and back. There’s no reason not to. The action I would take based on any findings in the x-ray would vary based on whether the horse was currently sound doing what I plan to do or whether it was a prospect currently working at a lower level than I plan to get to. But I would still want to know up front.

I recently passed on a horse that had failed a vetting due to kissing spine. He was a very nice horse, under saddle about a year. His ad had a flat work video that was 6 months old and he looked pretty good. When I went to the seller’s youtube channel I found a more recent video that looked fantastic, he moved much better than the first video. In the time between the 2 videos, he had been vetted, found to have very minor kissing spine, and treated with shockwave and maybe injections (the owner fully disclosed, I just can’t remember now if she’d had the injections or if she told me it was something that may be needed). In discussion with my trainer, we both agreed he didn’t look too bad, but that he hadn’t done much yet and there was such an improvement after treatment that the mild kissing spine must have had some affect on him before. There are people who would think I was foolish to pass on a well-bred, sound looking, VERY affordable young horse for this, and someone did buy him a couple of months later. But for what I need and can afford at this point in time, he wasn’t worth the risk. And the seller was open, very understanding, and didn’t vague post on FB the next day about idiot tire-kickers.

[skydy]

I agree that it is very apparent that the horse in the videos is not sound. I most likely would not have guessed exactly what was wrong, because he’s doing so many odd things with his body, but it’s clear to me that there is something very wrong. I noticed first, the odd way he carries his head and neck at liberty. That was strange enough and of course it went downhill from there.

I am stunned that no one involved with the horse noticed that there was something very wrong with him. Trainers? Not very good or observant ones apparently.

[beowulf]

@barnesthenoble

I will say there is substantial improvement over the course of the four videos.

I agree with you, though the horse is still uncomfortable in all of them. He may be the type to benefit from a particular warm up. He moves better later on in the video[s] than in the beginning. That type of “tight backed” presentation is common with KS horses.

There is a section that is cut off which is him bolting around 0:38 - I think that should have stayed in the video. The rider lightly adjusts her feet and he gooses. I think with (symptomatic, undiagnosed/untreated) KS horses the most dangerous part of your ride is usually the first two minutes you get on. That’s a very common behavioral sign their back hurts and until the saddle “settles” they can be very goosey. He looks downright miserable in the water video to me.

It’s unfortunate, but I see a lot of horses with this level of discomfort. Yes, he is in pain and it’s obviously communicated – but this pretty common in working horses. My hope is that everyone - Benchmark, the working students, the riders, the owners, onlookers – can learn from this horse, and study where he said loud and clear “I hate this”, and learn to recognize those stress signals in other horses.

No one is born knowing these things and we all learn as we go. Best we can do is learn from the horses like this that are kind enough to teach us without hurting us – and do better for the next horse that comes along. I hope OP keeps us updated with her horse as he recovers.

No one should ever trust a seller’s definition of sound. Just like another poster said up thread about used car salesmen; horse sellers are friendly, but they’re not your friend. Caveat emptor.

I do not agree with Jessica’s definition of sound or her view points on Kissing Spine – and have openly disagreed with her on this forum over these topics. This is probably why Jessica did not realize this horse was symptomatic for KS. That being said, I do not believe she is a liar or deliberately hid anything about this horse. This was probably just as surprising to her as it was to the OP. I’m curious what OP expects Benchmark to do - what specifically would make her happy in this outcome? Taking the horse back? Paying for the surgery? Something else?

[Texarkana]

@Lunabear1988

Okay hypothetical question. Let’s say Amos DID X-ray the back at the PPE and found what they had found. Let’s say they didn’t buy the horse. I’m curious what the seller would have done with the horse since she’s talked a lot about how kissing spine is often not a big deal and or mostly from bad riding/management? Because I’m not sure how you can keep thinking that it’s behavioral after x-rays like that?

Just pondering. I know she discloses known issues but would her opinion have changed on the horse knowing what’s going on in his back?

Well the seller is right here on this thread.

To be fair, she fairly often rehomes horses with severe behavioral or physical issues with full disclosure of why to appropriately vetted homes.

I don’t have a dog in this fight (except when anyone implies my beloved vet might have been part of the problem ). I’m just stating public information.

[barnesthenoble]

@beowulf

He looks downright miserable in the water video to me.

I’d be curious to hear why you think he looks more miserable in the water video (I assume the second ride video?) than the first ride. I agree he looks NQR but his demeanor in general looks somewhat improved to my eye over the first video. He’s definitely not thrilled with the right lead canter in the latter half of the video, but does settle somewhat towards the end. He’s generally fussy in his canter departs which again, in hindsight we recognize as a symptom but it’s not uncommon for green horses coming into work. Overall he looks fairly keen. Not comfortable, but not worse than the first video. He’s very unhappy in the first video to my eye.

Admittedly I’m watching them on a phone so maybe I’m missing something. Overall though I see a fairly linear improvement in what is shown in the videos from Ride 1 to the last video available.

I agree that this presentation is seen all too often in horses of many disciplines and levels of experience. I’ve seen quite a few nice young warmbloods who present like these videos for their first rides. Some improve and some don’t. I see some very pissy horses when I scribe at dressage shows, too. It can be really hard to parse out what is pain, what is learned behavior, what is stress-induced, etc.

[steelerino]

Running him off his feet is an attempt to make him look less balky. I guarantee you if they were to try to ask for a canter from a walk or normal trot he would through his head up, hollow his back, and resist. All his canter transitions are done from that running trot for a reason. IMO

[barnesthenoble]

I mean, he’s pretty darn green in these videos so I think asking for a canter from a walk on the second ride they’ve done on him while trying to get him fit and figure out how he wants to be ridden would be…well, foolish. And a LOT of horses early on rush into the canter while they’re trying to figure out what the aids mean. He still looks pretty damn balky about the canter to me in the second video so I’m not sure what they’d be hiding, and he still throws his head up, hollows his back, and generally resists in the canter transitions. But they don’t get as much of the stuck in place up and down resistance that they had in the first video. They’re trying to troubleshoot what works for him. I don’t see anything inherently wrong with that.

They’re very open that they ride their horses very forward in the beginning and it does truly help a lot of horses. When they feel like they can go forward you do generally get less resistance than when they feel bottled up. I’ve seen a lot more horses explode from getting packaged up before they’re ready than I have from horses being ridden forward. And sometimes to install forward you need to go really forward, even to the point of rushing.

ETA: I’m not saying that I think the horse looks great or that I don’t see issues. Absolutely I do. But I can see the thought process behind why they rode him this way.

[blue_heron]

Obviously, disappointed for the buyer that her horse who she clearly cares about now didn’t turn out how she wanted that she feels he was falsely advertised. That really sucks. He does look like a sweet horse.

But agree that horse is lame in the videos. He’s uneven behind and holding himself in the hind end. If I hadn’t known after reading this thread what the issue is, I could blame it on a number of things-- ulcers, hocks/SI/stifle pain being exacerbated by the rider sitting on the back of the saddle, bridle lameness from tension, maybe back (probably would not have been my first thought, honestly). If the seller has only ridden the horse once or twice and thinks that the unevenness is a result of tension or purely behavioral, well, that’s their opinion. And it could be right in some cases.

[skydy]

He doesn’t look right in the video where he is not being ridden, so I wouldn’t blame it on the tack or the rider.