@omare I had my horse x ray’s and injected at my farm
2 Likes
You can X-ray in the field. It’s not the gold standard, and you can’t see far into the lower lumbar or the neck. Sometimes horses can have “close” processes due to posture or lack of fitness that go away when new views are taken. However, extensive kissing spines with remodeling or overlapping processes usually show up in the field, so it’s not a waste of money for someone doing a PPE.
As always, people have to decide their risk tolerance. I don’t care about narrowing or close processes as much, especially on a young or unfit horse. However, I’ll pass immediately on overlapping processes or rads that show demineralization or remodeling - that’s where my line in the sand is.
10 Likes
I am appreciative of this educational thread. I have learned so much.
10 Likes
I’ll assume we aren’t going to hear any more from fourlegs/Amos on this topic.
4 Likes
This would have made me go …hmmm…then why didn’t you?
5 Likes
If wishes were sound horses, beggars would ride and not have astronomical vet bills!
16 Likes
What a bizarre thing for a PPE vet to say. Even if it was the soundest horse he’d ever come across.
13 Likes
This entire thread is evidence to why selling horses in the US is such a nightmare.
I bought an OTTB in 2017 that the vet (former track vet, so I trusted him a lot more than I should have) advised to not to take rads and quite frankly made fun of me for even doing a PPE for “such a cheap horse”. That horse, of course, has cost me THOUSANDS of dollars in vet bills and I don’t really think he’ll ever truly be sound. But the term that so many Americans just don’t accept is “serviceably sound”. He can and willingly does what I ask of him and we constantly work on helping him to feel better.
There really isn’t a truly sound horse alive. Just like there isn’t really a sound human. We all have some kind of hitch in our gitalong somewhere that may or may not limit our mobility at some point. That is the gamble we take with every horse we buy. I was spoiled for 29 years with a QH that was never lame until he was 24. But he’s obviously the exception.
My lesson from buying my horse is that I would vet a future horse differently. My conversation with the PPE vet, whether it is my regular vet or a vet somewhere else, would be more specific. And, if I’m being honest, I’m pretty done with thoroughbreds. The way TBs have been bred for the past 30 years doesn’t lend the breed towards long term soundness.
OP, take the lesson learned and move on. I don’t blame you for never buying a horse from this seller again, but I don’t think this public blast is necessary. I, for one, never want to sell another horse bc of posts like this and unrealistic expectations and lack of personal accountability of buyers in the US combined with the absolutely absurd and unrealistic expectation of only selling sound horses.
36 Likes
I find this public blast to be very informative. Not necessarily about this seller as much about things in general.
I have learned:
- It is 100% on the buyer to confirm/deny all claims made by the seller and never believe a seller no matter how reputable they are, because in the end, it still all falls on the buyer. The good old buyer beware totally applies in horses. No seller is responsible for anything.
- Though we have been taught our whole lives to believe people like vets, do not do this on a PPE. Comment #1 applies here too. Know all of your options/possible issues/things that can be hidden and vet for everything and anything, because again, the whole buyer beware thing.
36 Likes
I do think the blast is informative, unfortunately. Buying a horse is a lot like buying a used car… very very few cars are determined to be lemons, but most break or have something wrong. Buyer should ALWAYS beware. I was never taught to implicitly trust vets, for that maybe I’m fortunate? I don’t mistrust vets, I just know that they are one person with an educated opinion but they don’t have a crystal ball. I mostly just assume every horse or car I buy has something wrong with it and it’ll only be a matter of time until I figure out what it is and how bad. The more time that goes by and experience I have, the more tools in my toolbox to have a method to figure out what is wrong.
15 Likes
Good memory!
So, Jessica sold the horse to Amos/fourlegs who was coming back from a riding break in Dec 2023? Amos says the horse is 7 mo post-op from KS surgery. If Amos has a great trainer who said they would be involved with the horse, maybe she thought it would work.
I still can’t place all of the blame on Jessica here. It’s buyer/buyer’s trainer’s responsibility to find an independent vet and get the vetting they want. Are they implying that the vet they used was in cahoots with Jessica? They said the vet said “don’t bother” with some of the rads. If you’re paying for the vetting, you tell the vet what you want, and if they don’t want to listen, you can either take their opinion at face value or if you think something is fishy, you tell the vet you’re done and pass on the horse.
Still doesn’t change the fact that the horse is lame in the video. Which neither buyer nor buyer’s trainer picked up on. Jessica’s ad makes it sound like she thought it was from tension. No one can know if this is what she really thought or just a good excuse.
17 Likes
He’s so so pretty.
3 Likes
I don’t think anyone is saying the seller isn’t responsible for anything or doesn’t have a duty to try to present the horse accurately, including disclosing soundness problems if known.
It’s just that the buyer also has responsibilities:
- Be honest about your riding abilities and look for something that’s within the scope of what you can handle. If you’re coming off a hiatus and haven’t ridden a horse in 10 years, a hot TB with some known issues under saddle is probably not where you should be looking, regardless of the cause of the issues.
- If you are buying a horse with the intent to have a trainer bring that horse along for you including doing most of the initial riding, it’s best to have the trainer weigh in on the horse as well
- Don’t let flashy front end action, a big trot, and a pretty neck outweigh basic soundness
If you’re a buyer who has neglected your own basic responsibilities, you’re likely to get less sympathy when you come out swinging at the seller claiming they neglected theirs.
The vet … that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms. If he truly did tell the buyer that back X-rays were definitely not needed and refuse to do them after she asked for them, and claim the horse was so sound he wished his wife would buy him … that’s crazy unprofessional. I can certainly imagine him saying something like, “back X-rays will be another $xxx and I usually don’t do them, are you sure you want to?” and that wouldn’t be overly damning. But if there was no exaggeration and it actually happened as the buyer is claiming, the vet is the one that should be having his name plastered across the internets because he certainly didn’t hold up his end of the deal to provide an impartial assessment of the horse.
31 Likes
Why?
Some people are naturally very good riders and 10 years off does not mean they have lost that. And, if they are willing to simply put the horse in training with a pro, why do you care what horse they buy?
I do not see where the complaint has ever been that this rider was over horsed.
If the seller cares that much about matching the horse to the rider, they should not be selling site unseen over the internet.
15 Likes
Just wanted to add that I have also had a PPE vet in that general area advise against back X-rays. The horse was a 10-year-old TB eventer with some reaction to palpation. I wanted to X-ray all the things because he was the most expensive horse I’d ever bought (though still hardly on the scale of expensive horses) and I’d had two bad experiences with other horses (unrelated to kissing spines). In retrospect I guess I should have pushed harder? No matter what people on the internet say and what your gut feeling is, it’s hard to insist on something to an FEI vet who is telling you you don’t need it, especially with the owner standing right there. His argument was that the horse was already in full work doing what I wanted to do (different than Amos’s case), the reaction to palpation was inconsistent, and there isn’t much correlation between back X-rays and functional soundness.
FWIW I did X-ray two years later and there’s some remodeling that probably started before my purchase. I would have bought the horse anyway though, and if I hadn’t I would have missed out on a really really super horse.
16 Likes
That’s where the “probably” comes in. If you’re one of the maybe 1% of riders who can take 10 years off from riding, have a kid or two, then come back and hop on a hot, very green OTTB without missing a beat, then by all means have at it. But for the overwhelming majority of re-riders, it’s better advised to at least find one that’s either quiet or well broke, if not both.
Why is it purely the seller’s responsibility to rule out any medical problems if the buyer likes the way the horse is currently going and wants to buy it as is, despite seeing the squirrely-ness in the canter and tendency toward bucking after jumps that were clearly visible in the videos? I guess part of my issue with this is, if you decide to buy a horse that is going like that in its sales videos (which presumably aren’t showing him on his worst ride ever, or on a windy day coming off a month of stall rest), you don’t really have reason to be shocked when explosive behavior shows up, regardless of the underlying cause and whether it’s “purely behavioral” or not.
26 Likes
Have you forgotten what the post you rebutted said? It said it is all the buyer’s responsibility.
2 Likes
Unless I’m mistaken, the post I responded to was was somewhat sarcastic, in that you didn’t think that’s the way it should be, and the buyer was deserving of a lot more sympathy for buying a horse that ended up having major problems. I thought you were expressing frustration that the seller wasn’t getting more of the blame for the situation.
I assumed the “no seller is responsible for anything” was tongue in cheek because would not only imply that it was the buyer’s responsibility to do their due diligence particularly when looking at a horse with clear issues under saddle, but that it’s also acceptable for sellers to, say, knock several years off a horse’s age, or Bute up/sedate a horse when showing it to prospective buyers, and I’m pretty sure nobody here has argued for that.
If you truly do believe that sellers are responsible for nothing and that’s the way it should be … I can’t say I agree, but I apologize for reading sarcasm where there was none.
6 Likes
I opened this can of worms and although I cannot address all the responses or even read through that many, I will elucidate on a few points.
I sent multiple texts and left multiple VMs for Ms. Redman. None of my messages to her were confrontational. Very straightforward. This is X, I purchased X from you, please give me a call back. No, I was not about to write her a text outlining his diagnosis and treatment options so that she could box her response. I was suspicious at the time, but not yet set on my opinion that she knew. I wanted to have a discussion and get more information before forming an opinion. Her actions and avoidance formed it for me. She doesn’t have reception at her barn is an excuse I was given as to why she couldn’t call me back. That is her place of business where she sells 300 horses per year. Her own vet laughed at this notion.
Next, 100% my horse in the other post. I was so excited to be back riding, to own him, and in need of gear. I had my dream horse and wanted to get him stuff! Yes, I was coming off a 10+ year hiatus. Ms. Redman knew this. Everything was disclosed. There was a plan in place we both felt comfortable with. My horse would be in training with a professional dressage trainer while I got back into shape on some well-schooled horses, which I am currently doing. The anticipated timeframe was as long as it takes for him to have some good dressage basics and for me to get my sea-legs. We were in no rush. Not looking to resell or show, just to enjoy the process.
I’ll say it and say it again for the folks in the back. This is a broker that likely eyeballs over 600 horses per year on the very low side, well over 10,000 throughout her career. So many of you looked at a few videos and saw NQR. An expert that watched this horse go in person, saw the explosiveness, could not reach the same conclusion? Or maybe she didn’t want to? Obvious at this point, I feel she put her head in the sand for a dollar. You don’t have to agree.
For those of you asking, I’m not happy with the vet either. Do I believe him, unclear. I see Ms. Redman and the PPE vet attempting to discretely point fingers at each other. She states, “I know that particular vet watches the ride videos as well” (implying he missed it, not my fault). He emphatically denies ever watching sales videos. Furthers to say that Ms. Redman denied the horse exhibiting any adverse behavior when he directly asked her (she didn’t disclose and the horse looked ok for a snippet in time, not my fault). Assume he is being honest, if she had disclosed the behavior she observed, the vet would not have dissuaded XRs. BUT FOR her nondisclosure, radiographs would have been performed and this sale doesn’t happen. Regardless of her interpretation of said behavior it happened in her presence, or it didn’t. He said, she said between Ms. Redman and the vet. Whole thing smells bad.
After all of this, what’s funny is that my horse isn’t even a tricky “professional’s ride.” That in and of itself was such a misrepresentation. He has a motor, not hot. He’s big, but he’s a straightforward green horse. My trainer felt he was super go-with-the-flow until you asked him to engage the right hind, particularly at the canter. He would consistently kick out or buck, sometimes all 4-feet off the ground bronco style. No professional was going to work this out of him. A professional’s horse? Nope. A painfully dangerous one. Yes.
For those of you that hold the seller to such a low bar, let’s play this out. Would it have been ok for me to flip my horse after seeing the full extent and level of explosiveness, but before XRs? I mean, to my knowledge at the time this was just a training issue. I’d already be losing money, so no need to call the vet out and incur more of a loss. Buyer beware right? Se la vie.
No. The answer is no. A seller never gets a pass to sell a dangerous horse. I’m an amateur and when I saw the extent of the behavior in person not the IMO watered down version that was represented, I knew this horse was in pain. I knew that attempting to sell him would be immoral. I suppose this scenario would have been a viable option for some of you because…sellers will be sellers. I struggle to wrap my head around this, but you have a right to your opinion.
48 Likes
I do think it’s not a good look if the seller refuses to at least text or email back after a nonconfrontational message from the buyer saying “FYI, this horse is very explosive on the right lead and he turned out to have severe KS and the vet thinks he needs surgery.” I don’t think she has an obligation to take the horse back or pay for KS surgery since it’s clear horses are being sold as is, but not even acknowledging the message was received is unprofessional.
Regarding whether or not the horse is hot or a type better suited to a professional than a rerider, it’s entirely possible, even likely that if not in pain he’s a quiet and straightforward sort. But the videos showed behavior that didn’t indicate a quiet and straightforward ride. If the horse is purchased under the assumption it’s purely behavioral with no underlying soundness issues causing pain based on the seller’s assessment, that means you’re knowingly buying a quirky and sensitive sort. And if a potential buyer watched the videos and didn’t see any potential issues, whether behavioral or physical, they’re probably someone that should enlist the help of a trainer or knowledgeable friend before buying a horse sight unseen over the internet.
26 Likes
