Benchmark Sporthorses?

[beowulf]

@Amos

An expert that watched this horse go in person, saw the explosiveness, could not reach the same conclusion?

I think what you are missing is that she is not an expert. She is just a seller of race horses. Her definition of sound is very different than a buyer’s.

I am not on her side but I think you are inflating how many horses she looks at and sells a year.

@Amos

After all of this, what’s funny is that my horse isn’t even a tricky “professional’s ride.”

“Tricky/professional’s ride” is not a personality trait. It is an avoidance/stress behavior from pain. Now you know why he was tricky.

Will you make a different thread, for those of us following and invested in your beautiful horse? I would love to hear more about his surgery, the processes involved, and his rehab. I have a KS horse and work peripherally with several.

[endlessclimb]

@beowulf

I am not on her side but I think you are inflating how many horses she looks at and sells a year.

She’s posted about how many she moves per year, and I actually think it’s pretty close to accurate. As to how many she looks at, that I don’t know.

[Djones]

@Warmblood1

I’m just catching up on this thread but for anyone questioning the horse’s soundness based on the free movement video, please watch this video - It should be abundantly clear to an experienced horse person that this horse is unsound, let alone being able to feel this under saddle.

Final Deception first ride here 11 20 23

I really hope the issues resolve with this horse because he seems like such a good egg.

Oh boy he’s uncomfortable. A big strapping young TB or any athletic horse should be happy to be allowed to go into a canter. He looks like an AQHA western pleasure horse at the canter. Up down up down no forward.

This horse hurt and no one cared.

[kt]

Amos/fourlegs, I truly feel for you. On a fairly regular basis I look to see the horses Jessica is posting, and I remember very clearly when she posted your gelding late last year. To whomever it was here saying that we all now have the benefit of hindsight: I can promise you from the very first few moments of watching the first ride, my impression was the horse was NQR. I didn’t know where it was coming from, but he was taking uneven steps behind, he was holding his head unnaturally, he was wringing his tail and he was popping into the canter uncomfortably. At the time, I can remember just myself feeling uncomfortable watching him being pushed through the ride and thinking well maybe I’M the one whose eye is off and I have no idea what I’m looking at here. When I saw a photo of him posted him here about your purchase, I instantly knew it was him. I cringed and hoped for the best. I am so sorry it has turned out this way and I really hope he recovers fully.

To those who haven’t scanned through Benchmark’s current and past horses, Jessica has and has had some lovely, lovely horses with exceptional movement and great pedigrees. That said, I think the page uses a lot of heavy marketing/showmanship to show everything in the best light possible-- which can be blinding. This is seen in the paragraph upon paragraph of descriptions for each horse, which are usually full of superlatives but also contain some “buyer beware” honesty about the horse’s weaknesses.

As others have mentioned, Jessica has made it no secret that their style is super forward on a solid contact. In my opinion, yes this helps installs a forward button and improves straightness, but many times these videos seem to show an unnaturally uphill frame on a tense horse that is flinging his legs and being run off his feet because he hasn’t actually built the muscles to properly carry himself. But because so many of these horses are beautiful movers and/or super athletic (combined with just being beautiful, period and Jessica’s convincing description), the viewer/prospective buyer/etc has a tendency to just be dazzled and see “fancy.”

I know this is getting super long, but I found it interesting that recently a very prominent and accomplished pro rider started documenting on social media the retraining of a OTTB she purchased. If you were to compare her riding videos to what you see on Jessica’s channel, you would be shocked at the lighter rein/contact she started him on and the difference in lower rhythm (NOT behind the leg) she allows him to go along at as he learns his balance. It has been been so refreshing and I think so much more a realistic and compassionate way to bring along an OTTB into a new career.

[Scribbler]

@kt

Your description of Jessica’s riders reminds me of what people say about the video sales rides on export European WB. Forward and on the bit with a confident rider can make a horse look more put together than he really is.

[foursocks]

I agree with everything you have said, but I guess the big difference between those two examples is that one is a reseller of some volume, and the other is a trainer. So, the question is what are their goals, and also their responsibilities? The second has the time and experience and education to bring a horse along and the first one is trying to sell horses efficiently and make a profit. So, buyers really do need to be somewhat aware of what they see (as you say: bent at the poll, being worked very forward, so the picture is a false frame but looks fancy), vs. what they will most likely get at home (some version of a coked-up giraffe with an upside down neck and other track gifts like weak stifles).

Anyone who thinks a horse right off the track is able to work properly over its back is…well, wrong. They simply do not have that form of muscle development, and some take more than a year to really develop it. That is where the education of the trainer you are talking about is so important, because all of the work that needs to be done to create true self-carriage and strength and eventually collection takes time and patience. But for a reseller the goal isn’t to have the horse long enough for those months and months of retraining, it is to get the horse going well enough to do some stuff with it, and show it to buyers, and then hopefully send it on the next home.

Unfortunately, it really comes down to the fact that buyers have to be more educated, work with a trainer who is, or be prepared to get something home that they may not be able to deal with the way they had imagined. My own trainer has had so, so many retraining projects and new students come in with OTTBs who didn’t get that good restarting foundation. Very often it’s all a big drama of buyer’s remorse and s/he’s crazy and OMG!1!!!1! until she helps them start over correctly. And then you get whatever is actually in the poor animal, waiting to be brought out with time and patience and knowledge.

ETA: thinking about my own new-ish guy (not an OTTB), he came to me with not much topline because he was a sales horse and teaching him more than base-level dressage wasn’t in the program. So he had all of the flatwork basics, had an auto change, and could jump and go to horse shows. This is what I expected, and this is what I got. Fast forward 4-5 months and ta da! He had a topline, he had bulked out particularly in that tricky area around the withers, and he could now begin to sit in the canter, work into the bridle confidently, and so on. It takes time! Again, anyone who thinks it doesn’t is fooling themselves.

[SuzieQNutter]

There is another thing that could have happened. Yes the horse is NQR, and looked like wanting to buck after jumping, but the horse did not buck and got stronger and better while at the sellers.

At the buyers place the horse could have done anything in the paddock to hurt itself more. We know horses are always trying to kill themselves.

I have seen a horse fall over, in his haste to get away, just because the bully in the paddock pulled a face at him. Anything could have happened the day/night before he was brought in for the trainer to ride when the trainer came off.

[Railbird]

Was this horse ridden for the vetting? If not, was it because no one is available to do so? That is striking to me, if a riding horse is being vetted without the vet seeing it ridden, particularly if that’s policy there from a scheduling perspective. Or was the suggestion the vet can watch the sale videos supposed to be in lieu of an under saddle portion of the prepurchase?

[barnesthenoble]

@kt

I found it interesting that recently a very prominent and accomplished pro rider started documenting on social media the retraining of a OTTB she purchased.

Would you be willing to share the name of this rider?

[McGurk]

I am reminded of the old saying regarding horses: you want sound, good looking and cheap; but you can only have two out of three.

If it’s sound and good looking, it’s not cheap.
If it’s sound and cheap, it’s not good looking.
If it’s cheap and good looking, it’s not sound.

I have some sympathy for the buyer, who thought she was getting a bargain and has ended up with an expensive rehab project.

I still think that it was wildly inappropriate to put the seller on blast on social media implying that she was dishonest and unethical. Her business is sourcing well bred, athletic youngsters from the track and finding them appropriate homes, in a short amount of time.

Pretty much everyone that looked at the sale videos saw a horse that was uncomfortable behind. The seller did not: 1.) bute the horse for the video 2.) pump it full of muscle relaxants 3.) sedate the horse or 4.) nerve block the horse to get the sale videos. She also didn’t sub in a different, sounder large black OTTB for the vetting. (All things that have been done by unscrupulous sellers IME.)

The seller presented the horse as is, with her own opinion about his issues. The trainer and the vet somehow both failed to pick up on the horse’s discomfort that’s pretty readily apparent in the videos. But yet, somehow, it’s the seller’s fault?

I would love to know the sale price of the horse. I think that would be an interesting data point to add to the discussion.

[sparkygrace]

@McGurk

I am reminded of the old saying regarding horses: you want sound, good looking and cheap; but you can only have two out of three.

If it’s sound and good looking, it’s not cheap.
If it’s sound and cheap, it’s not good looking.
If it’s cheap and good looking, it’s not sound.

I have always told my husband I look for soundness, temperament, and movement. I can only afford two of the three.

[Sister7]

@Scribbler

Your description of Jessica’s riders reminds me of what people say about the video sales rides on export European WB. Forward and on the bit with a confident rider can make a horse look more put together than he really is.

As someone who is currently shopping for a horse directly off the track, I really like her videos and wish there was a reseller like her closer to me. I see her videos as an excellent “preview” of what you are buying, and I think her program adds a lot of value vs shopping off track directly.

Anyone buying from her should be knowledgeable enough to know what they are actually getting. Some of these horses last raced a week or two ago! I would expect to basically restart them from the ground up, build back and core strength, etc. But she has some really really nice horses… I was so close to messaging her about American Lad and shipping him across the country, but ultimately decided 17h was too tall for me.

[AskMyAccountant.17]

@Railbird

ted without the vet seeing it ridden, particularly if that’s policy there from a scheduling perspective. Or was the suggestion the vet can watch the sale videos supposed to be in lieu of an under saddle portion of the prepurchase?

In my experience, in a different geographic area, as a seller (of not many horses) I never speak to the vet that is doing the vetting. If anything, it’s considered (here) in poor taste to communicate to the vet as the vet is the client of the buyer not me. So, I drop off horse at the vetting and know nothing until I get a call from the potential buyer. It’s considered “good taste” or “honorable” if the potential provides some insight to what was found, but not expected.

I’ve also never done a vetting myself, or had a horse I’m selling ridden for the vet. The vet may do jogs, on a lunge, or free in a round pen but have never presented a horse under saddle for a vetting. I’ve also never known a vet to review videos of under saddle work for horses I buy or sell, even higher priced ones.

[sassy]

FWIW I follow their page on Facebook and if I recall correctly, this was not one of their less expensive horses. I believe the horses are generally in the $4k - $8k range and this one was over 10k if memory serves. So not necessarily what I’d consider a bargain for an OTTB…

[CBoylen]

@AskMyAccountant.17

I’ve also never done a vetting myself, or had a horse I’m selling ridden for the vet. The vet may do jogs, on a lunge, or free in a round pen but have never presented a horse under saddle for a vetting

Please people, ride or have someone ride the horse for the vet, if the horse is rideable. As a seller to CYA or as a buyer. There are thousands of things that show up under tack that don’t otherwise. Plus it’s written record of “horse goes as expected for impartial witness”.

[Amos]

Horse was purchased 7 months ago and is now s/p KS surgery. I have clarified my original post after seeing where things were confusing.

[TWilson]

@Amos

I opened this can of worms and although I cannot address all the responses or even read through that many, I will elucidate on a few points.

I sent multiple texts and left multiple VMs for Ms. Redman. None of my messages to her were confrontational. Very straightforward. This is X, I purchased X from you, please give me a call back. No, I was not about to write her a text outlining his diagnosis and treatment options so that she could box her response. I was suspicious at the time, but not yet set on my opinion that she knew. I wanted to have a discussion and get more information before forming an opinion. Her actions and avoidance formed it for me. She doesn’t have reception at her barn is an excuse I was given as to why she couldn’t call me back. That is her place of business where she sells 300 horses per year. Her own vet laughed at this notion.

Next, 100% my horse in the other post. I was so excited to be back riding, to own him, and in need of gear. I had my dream horse and wanted to get him stuff! Yes, I was coming off a 10+ year hiatus. Ms. Redman knew this. Everything was disclosed. There was a plan in place we both felt comfortable with. My horse would be in training with a professional dressage trainer while I got back into shape on some well-schooled horses, which I am currently doing. The anticipated timeframe was as long as it takes for him to have some good dressage basics and for me to get my sea-legs. We were in no rush. Not looking to resell or show, just to enjoy the process.

I’ll say it and say it again for the folks in the back. This is a broker that likely eyeballs over 600 horses per year on the very low side, well over 10,000 throughout her career. So many of you looked at a few videos and saw NQR. An expert that watched this horse go in person, saw the explosiveness, could not reach the same conclusion? Or maybe she didn’t want to? Obvious at this point, I feel she put her head in the sand for a dollar. You don’t have to agree.

For those of you asking, I’m not happy with the vet either. Do I believe him, unclear. I see Ms. Redman and the PPE vet attempting to discretely point fingers at each other. She states, “I know that particular vet watches the ride videos as well” (implying he missed it, not my fault). He emphatically denies ever watching sales videos. Furthers to say that Ms. Redman denied the horse exhibiting any adverse behavior when he directly asked her (she didn’t disclose and the horse looked ok for a snippet in time, not my fault). Assume he is being honest, if she had disclosed the behavior she observed, the vet would not have dissuaded XRs. BUT FOR her nondisclosure, radiographs would have been performed and this sale doesn’t happen. Regardless of her interpretation of said behavior it happened in her presence, or it didn’t. He said, she said between Ms. Redman and the vet. Whole thing smells bad.

After all of this, what’s funny is that my horse isn’t even a tricky “professional’s ride.” That in and of itself was such a misrepresentation. He has a motor, not hot. He’s big, but he’s a straightforward green horse. My trainer felt he was super go-with-the-flow until you asked him to engage the right hind, particularly at the canter. He would consistently kick out or buck, sometimes all 4-feet off the ground bronco style. No professional was going to work this out of him. A professional’s horse? Nope. A painfully dangerous one. Yes.

For those of you that hold the seller to such a low bar, let’s play this out. Would it have been ok for me to flip my horse after seeing the full extent and level of explosiveness, but before XRs? I mean, to my knowledge at the time this was just a training issue. I’d already be losing money, so no need to call the vet out and incur more of a loss. Buyer beware right? Se la vie.
No. The answer is no. A seller never gets a pass to sell a dangerous horse. I’m an amateur and when I saw the extent of the behavior in person not the IMO watered down version that was represented, I knew this horse was in pain. I knew that attempting to sell him would be immoral. I suppose this scenario would have been a viable option for some of you because…sellers will be sellers. I struggle to wrap my head around this, but you have a right to your opinion.

There is a lot to unpack here, and all of it is super emotional, so it’s hard to know where to begin. The takeaway I get from reading this is that you just do not have the level of experience or the temperament to buy a green horse from a complete stranger off the internet without any help from a professional trainer or a vet that you know personally. And I don’t mean that as an insult; very, very few amateur horse buyers, especially those who have been completely absent from the sport for ten years, should buy a horse under those circumstances and expect a successful outcome.

It’s not clear whether or not this horse had “explosive” episodes that you knew of before you bought him. You saw the videos that every potential buyer was able to see; you had the opportunity to see the horse in person and ride it before you went through with the sale (did you do that? It seems that you didn’t, but why not?) You accuse the seller of witnessing explosiveness from this horse and blame her for putting “her head in the sand for a dollar” (and yet she disclosed that this was not a horse for the average ammy), and then you disagree with her assessment and say he was not a tricky, professional’s ride, but he was very straightforward and not hot. But he would buck in ways that no professional was going to succeed with him. Which is it?

Honestly, your situation sucks for sure but had you been honest with yourself and realized that this seller is not the one for an amateur who has been out of the saddle for ten years, or if you had gotten yourself established with a trainer and a vet BEFORE you went horse shopping, you probably wouldn’t be in this situation. The fact that you have taken absolutely no responsibility for the mess you are in speaks volumes. I hope the horse recovers to the point where you can enjoy him, but I just don’t see how the seller is at fault here knowing what was disclosed to you before the sale and that you couldn’t even stand up to the vet doing the PPE and insist on getting the films that you really wanted.

[KellyS]

@McGurk

I have some sympathy for the buyer, who thought she was getting a bargain and has ended up with an expensive rehab project.

I still think that it was wildly inappropriate to put the seller on blast on social media implying that she was dishonest and unethical. Her business is sourcing well bred, athletic youngsters from the track and finding them appropriate homes, in a short amount of time.

Pretty much everyone that looked at the sale videos saw a horse that was uncomfortable behind. The seller did not: 1.) bute the horse for the video 2.) pump it full of muscle relaxants 3.) sedate the horse or 4.) nerve block the horse to get the sale videos. She also didn’t sub in a different, sounder large black OTTB for the vetting. (All things that have been done by unscrupulous sellers IME.)

The seller presented the horse as is, with her own opinion about his issues. The trainer and the vet somehow both failed to pick up on the horse’s discomfort that’s pretty readily apparent in the videos. But yet, somehow, it’s the seller’s fault?

@TWilson

There is a lot to unpack here, and all of it is super emotional, so it’s hard to know where to begin. The takeaway I get from reading this is that you just do not have the level of experience or the temperament to buy a green horse from a complete stranger off the internet without any help from a professional trainer or a vet that you know personally. And I don’t mean that as an insult; very, very few amateur horse buyers, especially those who have been completely absent from the sport for ten years, should buy a horse under those circumstances and expect a successful outcome.

It’s not clear whether or not this horse had “explosive” episodes that you knew of before you bought him. You saw the videos that every potential buyer was able to see; you had the opportunity to see the horse in person and ride it before you went through with the sale (did you do that? It seems that you didn’t, but why not?) You accuse the seller of witnessing explosiveness from this horse and blame her for putting “her head in the sand for a dollar” (and yet she disclosed that this was not a horse for the average ammy), and then you disagree with her assessment and say he was not a tricky, professional’s ride, but he was very straightforward and not hot. But he would buck in ways that no professional was going to succeed with him. Which is it?

Honestly, your situation sucks for sure but had you been honest with yourself and realized that this seller is not the one for an amateur who has been out of the saddle for ten years, or if you had gotten yourself established with a trainer and a vet BEFORE you went horse shopping, you probably wouldn’t be in this situation. The fact that you have taken absolutely no responsibility for the mess you are in speaks volumes. I hope the horse recovers to the point where you can enjoy him, but I just don’t see how the seller is at fault here knowing what was disclosed to you before the sale and that you couldn’t even stand up to the vet doing the PPE and insist on getting the films that you really wanted.

Thank you both for saying everything that’s been going through my head while reading this thread.

[McGurk]

I have consulted on a lot of horse purchased for amateurs, many of them first time horse buyers. The sequence of the PPE was usually general physical exam, watch the horse move in hand, watch the horse loose or on a lunge, watch the horse ridden, sometimes by both me and the potential buyer, doing everything the potential buyer wanted to do with the horse (If it was supposed to be a 3’ hunter, it jumped a 3’ course in front of the PPE vet. How else can a vet reasonably certify “serviceably sound for purpose intended?”) flexions and then rads. There would be a discussion as to which rads to take and why. Navicular films were pretty standard back in the day, hocks if the horse had any dressage training, anything else that had even a slight positive to flexion or was a concern watching the under saddle.

I recently consulted on the purchase of a mid-5 figure horse out of state. The BNT seller gave us the names of all the vets they had a relationship with in the area; asking us not to use those vets as it would be a conflict of interest. My client had a different local practice vet the horse, and then sent the horse’s videos, the local vet’s report and the rads to her vet to review.

I have bought horses off the track for myself or for a project with no PPE. I bought my 3 yo with no PPE because I had known her since birth and knew everything she had done.

But advising a client on a purchase? I want them to have as much information as possible to make their decision and I want them to have comprehensive vet records for an eventual resale.

[Jealoushe]

I’m a bit shocked after watching the video that they even rode this horse. It’s not sound, not even close. Not good horsemanship. Period.