Those are not the posts I’m referring to. The posts were on FB and they were by Jessica (it was more than one post, it was some back and forth). I don’t know if it was on her page or in a group (but she and I are not FB friends so it was public in some regard and not just posted to friends of her page). I don’t go around screenshotting the things she says or tracking what she deletes, so possibly they’re taken down now. IIRC it was a reply to someone else’s post and not a post Jessica started, but that is based on memory and I could be wrong.
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But when you preference your opinion with some variation of “I am an expert” (like, “I sell hundreds of horses a year”) then people rely on your opinion to a different degree. And that can have legal consequences. As a professional horse seller, the representations she makes about her ability to spot veterinary issues and to know the likely outcome of conditions then influences how a buyer might read her assurances that “this horse’s issues are training-related.” She’s entitled to her opinion, but it might not be as well informed as she thinks and since she’s also a professional horse seller who offers specific opinions about the horses she sells that buyers then rely upon, she might be more conscientious about the opinions she offers.
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If you go to her facebook, and search her profile for kissing spine you will see a lot more posts than that. I wouldn’t describe it as being an expert on kissing spine, more just that her posts are overall very dismissive of kissing spine as a cause for any type of performance/lameness/behavioral issues.
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If you (g) have ever had it yourself, you will know. If you have not, you simply cannot be empathetic or sympathetic enough to understand. This is a subliminal reaction. Your human brain cannot control it. There is no possible way any animal could do so without an incredible amount of trust on the part of the animal and patience on the part of the person.
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@Amos COTH is an interesting place. Amazing amount of great information and an even more amazing amount of opinions. This post started regarding an inquiry about experience with Benchmark Sporthorse. Its very interesting to me that Jessica came on here and added fuel to a smoldering fire.
It was previously requested that you start a post regarding your horse and his rehabilitation. I agree that that would be hugely beneficial. People are genuinely interested in the health and well being of your handsome boy.
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This can’t be reiterated enough times. My horse had NPA that drove chronic suspensory strain, SI pain, and back soreness (I kick myself for not figuring any of it out sooner, but I didn’t know enough and didn’t have the support team prior to last January that we have now, and much like many people on this thread will look for KS everywhere because of their own horses, I’ll be looking for NPA forever). I spent a significant part of last year rehabbing him for those things, working with him as his body adapted to new biomechanics on the flat (he really didn’t know how to manage his hind end when he could actually sit and push), and just generally learn what his body could do without pain.
We brought him back to jumping this spring and I spent the first few weeks gritting my teeth and hanging on to my neck strap as he stabbed his hind feet into the ground and then bucked on the back side of fences (he had previously lawn-darted me twice doing this) because the only way out is through. He didn’t know it wouldn’t hurt anymore. He didn’t know until we did it again, and again, and again, until eventually he did know because he kept jumping and it kept not hurting and he put two and two together that he could land and keep going (he now puts his back into it so much over the fences that I have to work extra hard to not be jumped out of the tack, lol). He still has to reset his brain if we haven’t jumped in a month (although it thankfully doesn’t take a full ride at this point, just a few fences).
Fortunately I (usually) stick and have been able to ride him through this without punishing him for it. My trainer has encouraged us to take our time as he learns how his body works when it’s not in pain. She’s been around the block, knows OTTBs, and knew what to ask of him to start with and is always open to adapting our plan based on where he’s telling us he can go at the time . My saddles are checked by the fitter at least once and more likely twice per year. Our vet lays hands on him every six weeks so we can catch any changes early and our farrier is happy to work with her to get him the care he needs for his feet. It’s taken a lot to get him fat (he is. He really, really is, we need to do alllll the trot sets) and happy, and while it was theoretically “simple” compared to a significant KS finding (we fixed the feet, we fixed the horse), I don’t think it would’ve happened without the team we have around us. Findings of any kind are one thing but findings without a team vs. with one that knows how to deal with them are another thing entirely.
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Amos hasn’t said anything that would damage the seller’s reputation, in my opinion, but I suppose that depends on what you understand the seller’s reputation to be, right? I know that most of the PPE vets familiar to the seller have a reputation of openly HATING to perform back rads. If Amos had posted here that they were interested in that horse, I could have told them -based off of reputation- to push for back xrays.
Since I know some trainers who get great horses from this seller, I’d suspect, just by looking at that horse’s picture, that something was amiss. Otherwise, he should have been swept off of his feet by a trainer/reseller before he even made it to the website. He’s a supermodel. If he were sound and sensible and a seller wanted the horse to go to a professional, I cannot imagine that being tough to find.
I know that the seller maintains that resellers will not buy horses with KS. I know that they ascribe what I would consider pain expressions to bad behavior. Dots would be connecting for me. I don’t know what, if anything, the business’ reputation is in Texan dressage barns.
The seller doesn’t have to answer every email with “Do you know these ten facts that would make you not want to buy from me as a rusty yet optimistic re-rider who fell in love with a big eye-catching horse’s pictures?” It is buyer beware. Amos’ initial post said “buyer beware” and listed a bunch of things that most of us read and thought “duh”.
That’s not damaging to a seller. Yes, the buyer should have stuck to the rivers and lakes that they’re used to and shopped locally so that they could ride the horse a couple times before committing. They admit that. People have reminded Amos over and over and over and over again. Resolved.
We have heard testimony from both sides and it is likely that there’s some bad facts that each side did not share. They both feel they were transparent. One profited, the other took it up the pooper. Horse shopping is like that sometimes.
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If anyone can provide an example of where JR represents herself as an expert on KS, then please share. Otherwise, I think people are over reaching by saying she has and I also think it is an unfair representation of JR.
And FWIW, I’ve searched/read JR’s posts on FB (including her personal page) that discuss KS and all I see is someone sharing their experience with KS, not someone pretending to be an expert on the matter.
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Just search her COTH posts. She’s been vocal about KS over the years and has also popped into the various threads of other people who have Benchmark horses who are unhappy with XYZ. Amos is not an isolated incident.
The above attitude is what people on this thread and elsewhere are responding negatively to. This horse was so clearly in pain in her program. There’s a disconnect. She has rants on FB targeted towards buyers that walk away from horses, but she can’t see why they walk, because she doesn’t have the eye to see horses in pain.
I am not anti-Benchmark. But I do wish she would stop trash-talking the buyers that walk away from KS. She should prove us all wrong and take care of a KS horse its whole life, so she can have the full picture. She gets a tic-tac sized sample of what KS is like because she’s flipping horses, often only staying a few days to a week in her program. AFAIK she has not had a KS horse that she maintained, competed, and kept comfortable for 5-10+ years. I give those people more weight to their opinions about KS, than someone who sells young horses who never had the demand of real ridden/collection work put on their backs. To be clear, racing is real work - but it is short, intense, at speed, and with lightweight riders while the horse isn’t full grown. The wheels tend to come off on KS horses once real collection or jumping starts and/or they’ve fully matured and their spinal growth plates have closed (7-10+ yoa).
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And it’s not just her own FB posts, which are what is easily searchable. As someone that has followed her for years, she frequently chimes in comment sections of her own posts, other professionals and publications with her stark opinions on KS.
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I believer the buyer has said all of the below, with the explicit intent of damaging the seller’s reputation:
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I think what many of us struggle with is that nowhere does JR does explicitly state “I AM AN EXPERT ON KS AND THESE ARE MY VIEWS”.
However, she does represent her views as backed by the sheer volume of horses that she sees, the many vets that she works with, the many PPEs that she has had access to, and the number of horses (many in the hands of professionals) that have gone on to successful careers. And uses that knowledge to denigrate the concerns of buyers who are willing to walk away from a horse because of radiographic evidence of KS.
It sits wrong with people like @beowulf and myself, people that have personally owned and maintained horses with KS, who have lived through the limitations, the expense, heartache of owning one of that is symptomatic.
There are only very specific circumstances under which I would ever own one again (and maybe not even then). And I do feel like it is a disservice to disparage those who may be making a lifelong commitment to an expensive animal, to discredit their concerns about a condition that may end up being career-limiting or even in some cases career-ending.
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The thing that has stuck in my craw since Amos entered the thread is that this horse was not Jessica’s typical fresh of the track OTTB. He had been off the track in a private home owned by a friend -
Since I read that, I have wondered what more there might be to know about the horse and his time with his owner during that period. “No issues” just doesn’t completely pass the smell test for me… maybe he was only ridden on a loose rein down the trail, but that’s not why most people buy a horse that looks and moves like that.
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That was really well said, @floppyammy!
I agree, I would be very reluctant to buy a horse with either clinical signs or radiographic signs of KS, let alone both! I respect Redman’s view point, but do not agree with it, based on my own experience and my own, very different segment of the industry.
The problem that I have with the whole mess, other than the poor horse, is that the buyer is so determined to not only find the buyer at fault, but to attribute it to either malice or malfeasance.
The irony in all this, is that the unfortunate buyer is exactly the type of buyer Redman prefers to avoid, by her own statements. Her social media blast will likely only discourage other buyers like herself, which is a good thing. Pros and people experienced in rehabbing OTTBs, people with a better eye for looking at a horse under saddle and buyers with a higher risk tolerance will probably not be dissuaded and will understand the service Redman provides by sourcing these horses from the track and putting the post track rides on them.
The buyer has done a lot more damage to her own credibility than she has done to Redman’s.
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Yeah. The seller confirmed the first point. They’ve also said that they think the horse’s movement looks great. I couldn’t say if it’s negligent or just having strange opinions about how a healthy horse should move.
If Amos doesn’t get to have an opinion -clearly stated as opinion- then neither do you.
I agree with the vet’s approach. The seller’s frequent flyer vets HATE doing back X-rays. That’s not universal to all vets.
None of that tarnishes the seller’s reputation. The OP asked for insight about experience with the seller. Amos shared their’s.
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Amos said the seller had neither ethics or integrity. That’s an opinion, but it’s also a personal attack.
I think Amos is understandably upset, frustrated and concerned if she’s every going to have a sound horse to ride. If it stopped there, she’s have my sympathy and support.
But she’s determined to assign blame here, not to herself, not to her trainer and not to the vet. To the seller. And she put it on social media blast.
If her social media blast was just to warn people to get back xrays no matter what because of her bad experience, I’d be okay with that too. That’s a reasonable conclusion to draw from this experience. Or beware of buying a horse of the internet without trying it.
I’m not going to rehash the rest of the thread with you; reasonable people can look at the same circumstances and come to different conclusions. But ascribing motives to someone else crosses a line.
In the end, I think the buyer has done WAY more to damage her reputation than she has Redman’s.
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Yeah. I think the whole topic has been beaten to death. I somehow missed the part about a social media blast. In 200+ transactions a year, a seller is likely to have at least one dissatisfied buyer. Even if it was completely unavoidable, those experiences matter too.
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I respect your opinion of this and want to add that this is why most people who have a horse to sell dont want to sell to a person who doesnt have a professional representing them.
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Amen, sista!
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Not just great, but one of the best moving TBs she has seen. (or wording similar to that)
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