There are a number of those around here too, and I don’t feel like it’s the same at all. I believe Jessica works mostly with a few trainers and has some idea of their programs. The whaddayagotforsale types can be buying from anywhere.
Poppycock.
She has an OPINION on KS. Lots of people have them. Like elbows, opinions are rampant.
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I’m trying hard to be clear in my statements and not leave anything to implication in this thread, so please continue to ask wherever you’d like clarification. For clarification, my statement is that the lunging technique in that video would have made just about any horse I know very uncomfortable, both physically and mentally, regardless of whether or not they have pre-existing pathology.
There are some areas where we agree completely. For instance:
You are right about all of this. The radiographs are bad, the horse is not comfortable in the videos from Benchmark and we know now why, and two professionals came to different conclusions when witnessing this discomfort. There are no side reins in use in the video of your trainer.
However, we do disagree on some key points as well. Such as:
Having seen the radiographs as well as the Benchmark videos, I don’t believe this horse would present comfortably regardless of the lunging technique. However, I can tell you that 75% of the (currently comfortable in work) horses in my barn would respond similarly to that lunging technique. His presentation in the Benchmark videos, we now know, is due to his pathology. His presentation in the lunging video, to be frank, I believe would be more or less the same at his current stage of education and training regardless of the condition of his back.
She is not. That horse was running around with his chin nearly touching his chest with no slack in the lines. He is not educated enough at this stage in his career to understand that she (presumably) wanted him to push into the contact to stretch his neck. This is not an appropriate way to work that horse at this time - not for training, and certainly not for any form of lameness assessment. Using this style of lunging in this way would make any horse uncomfortable, both physically and mentally, and what we see in that video is not the execution of someone who is well versed in this training method.
He is. There is no slack in those lines. For proof, please refer to the many screenshots above. You do not need side reins to crank a horse up. The horse is trapped by the lines and has no idea how to move forward given his current position.
I suppose, but an educated trainer would never have put this horse, or herself, in the position where “17.3 hands of pure power” is “running from pain and leaping in the air and bucking”. I understand this video was shot to show you the lameness concerns. Frankly, those lameness concerns could have been pointed out to you based on existing Benchmark video alone. Once you saw the radiographs, I doubt you needed to see him bucking to believe they were a problem. Once this trainer had identified she was dealing with pain behaviors, management practices of this horse needed to change. Chief amongst those changes would be not taking him into a large, unrestricted area, compressing his already-painful spine into an unnatural shape, and chasing him until he was reactive enough to “prove” something.
You do have more control with this technique, but used incorrectly (as here) it comes at the expense of the horse. You could also have more control, without resorting to this technique, by choosing to work in a smaller area. You could also have more control by not asking a horse you know is in pain to do it at all.
My understanding is that this video was shot to prove to you that the horse could be explosive, but I could “prove” that using the same techniques with any number of sound horses. This technique takes a prey animal, restricts their movement considerably, and adds pressure. Many, many horses will explode, and it’s not because they have underlying pathology. (To be crystal clear: I am not disagreeing that this horse does have significant pathology. I don’t think anyone is disagreeing about that at this point.)
On a personal note, a friend of mine in another state lost her gelding because a trainer was long-lining him incorrectly. He was sensitive to pressure, reared, flipped, cracked his skull, and died. I’m not saying that long-lining is a sin, because I’ve seen it used to create some beautiful, relaxed work with several horses including my own, but used incorrectly the damage can be extreme. You are doing so much already to protect this lovely horse. This is another area where you are needed.
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“More control” for a fractious horse on the lunge is an overcheck with a bridle or a lunging cavesson. Not putting two lines on and nailing his chin on his chest.
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@Amos, I want to share with you that I, an adult ammy that has been riding every bit of 30 years, accidentally bought a TB, off videos, that was NOT the horse I thought I had bought. At the time, this was my 4th OTTB. When she arrived, my eyes basically got huge and I realized fairly quickly that I had made a mistake. I had an event trainer and a dressage trainer lined up to help me work with her. The event trainer I was working with at the time was right in her prime, and had run multiple horses to the 4* & 5* level - so one would think more than capable of handling a young OTTB mare.
The mare displayed some really dangerous and explosive behavior and frankly I am very lucky that myself, or barn workers, or the trainer, did not get hurt on or around her. I was frankly scared of her, and I knew it was a really bad spot to be in. I also do right by my horses and just felt totally cornered about what to do with her. The event trainer was not terribly helpful and did not seem to know what to do next.
I called on an old trainer I’d worked with who had moved away; who is known for his ability to produce young TBs. He’d competed in several of the OTTB re-training competitions, and had won one of them (can’t remember specific details but this was probably 10+ years ago) I called him and asked if I could send her there. He took her for many months, started for weeks with only ground work / lunging (and I can assure you the lunging did not include long lining- the only equipment he used at the beginning was a rope halter, a lunge line, a helmet and gloves.)
It took several months but he and I were able to ride her safely. I ultimately sold her to a young professional because she was always going to be too much horse and a bit too reactive for me to have fun with.
Obviously your horse has some severe physical issues that my horse thankfully did not. You are trying SO hard to do right by him, and that is beyond commendable- it makes you a literal saint in my book.
While obviously he displays high anxiety and explosive behavior probably primarily from his pain, I suspect he’s not going to be an easy horse to bring back from his surgery. He’ll probably buck and be all manner of a monster. I highly recommend that you find someone who is well-versed in OTTB retraining to continue on as he rehabs from his surgery. My experience taught me that OTTBs really are a breed of their own, and someone who doesn’t have explicit experience with young, high anxiety and explosive OTTBs is not going to do you or your horse any favors. Quite the opposite in fact. This horse doesn’t need straps attached to him at this point in his career, he needs someone that can communicate with him via body language and in a fair (in his mind) and consistent manner. Someone that can get him to relax on a long line; someone that is an expert in ground work.
I would reach out the The Retired Racehorse Project, they may be able to help find a resource near you that is capable of handling him safely.
ETA: I also want you to know that I closely follow Benchmark and I have considered purchasing several of the horses she’s listed over the years. I clearly remember when your horse was listed and drooling over him. I have held off on buying from her simply because her editing and marketing is so over the top I’m hesitant to really trust what I see. Your story has all but sealed the deal that I would not buy from her unless I am able to fly up and see the horse. Thank you for sharing - sorry you are being crucified by some that apparently are so much better at buying horses than others.
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THIS ALL DAY LONG! Hoping this boy gets better and in a good program.
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Pain memory is SUCH a factor. He may indeed be a chill, relaxed horse at his core, but he’s spent a lot of time being asked to work through pain and having to resort to SCREAMING for someone to hear him. Now that someone is finally listening, it’s going to take tact and ice in the veins of his rider to teach him that things aren’t going to hurt. Assuming, of course, that the surgery and rehab successfully rids him of pain (not always the case with KS and related issues).
Unfortunately, I’ve found that once a horse learns to buck/rear/explode, those tools are always in the toolbox. They may not be the first thing the horse goes to, but they will always be there. Especially at the beginning, especially with the sort of pain that spinal and nerve issues cause - sudden “zingers” for no discernible (to the horse) reason.
A good rehab program is going to be ESSENTIAL to this horse. He is large and athletic, which is actually going to work against him for a while, and the rider who could successfully rehab this kind of horse is rather rare.
Kudos to Amos for doing so much to try to get this guy comfortable! I hope it works out. I think the horse is a saint and deserves as much as can be done, the fact that he didn’t turn nasty and try to actively kill someone shows just how generous he is!
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Those are not the posts I’m referring to. The posts were on FB and they were by Jessica (it was more than one post, it was some back and forth). I don’t know if it was on her page or in a group (but she and I are not FB friends so it was public in some regard and not just posted to friends of her page). I don’t go around screenshotting the things she says or tracking what she deletes, so possibly they’re taken down now. IIRC it was a reply to someone else’s post and not a post Jessica started, but that is based on memory and I could be wrong.
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But when you preference your opinion with some variation of “I am an expert” (like, “I sell hundreds of horses a year”) then people rely on your opinion to a different degree. And that can have legal consequences. As a professional horse seller, the representations she makes about her ability to spot veterinary issues and to know the likely outcome of conditions then influences how a buyer might read her assurances that “this horse’s issues are training-related.” She’s entitled to her opinion, but it might not be as well informed as she thinks and since she’s also a professional horse seller who offers specific opinions about the horses she sells that buyers then rely upon, she might be more conscientious about the opinions she offers.
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If you go to her facebook, and search her profile for kissing spine you will see a lot more posts than that. I wouldn’t describe it as being an expert on kissing spine, more just that her posts are overall very dismissive of kissing spine as a cause for any type of performance/lameness/behavioral issues.
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If you (g) have ever had it yourself, you will know. If you have not, you simply cannot be empathetic or sympathetic enough to understand. This is a subliminal reaction. Your human brain cannot control it. There is no possible way any animal could do so without an incredible amount of trust on the part of the animal and patience on the part of the person.
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@Amos COTH is an interesting place. Amazing amount of great information and an even more amazing amount of opinions. This post started regarding an inquiry about experience with Benchmark Sporthorse. Its very interesting to me that Jessica came on here and added fuel to a smoldering fire.
It was previously requested that you start a post regarding your horse and his rehabilitation. I agree that that would be hugely beneficial. People are genuinely interested in the health and well being of your handsome boy.
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This can’t be reiterated enough times. My horse had NPA that drove chronic suspensory strain, SI pain, and back soreness (I kick myself for not figuring any of it out sooner, but I didn’t know enough and didn’t have the support team prior to last January that we have now, and much like many people on this thread will look for KS everywhere because of their own horses, I’ll be looking for NPA forever). I spent a significant part of last year rehabbing him for those things, working with him as his body adapted to new biomechanics on the flat (he really didn’t know how to manage his hind end when he could actually sit and push), and just generally learn what his body could do without pain.
We brought him back to jumping this spring and I spent the first few weeks gritting my teeth and hanging on to my neck strap as he stabbed his hind feet into the ground and then bucked on the back side of fences (he had previously lawn-darted me twice doing this) because the only way out is through. He didn’t know it wouldn’t hurt anymore. He didn’t know until we did it again, and again, and again, until eventually he did know because he kept jumping and it kept not hurting and he put two and two together that he could land and keep going (he now puts his back into it so much over the fences that I have to work extra hard to not be jumped out of the tack, lol). He still has to reset his brain if we haven’t jumped in a month (although it thankfully doesn’t take a full ride at this point, just a few fences).
Fortunately I (usually) stick and have been able to ride him through this without punishing him for it. My trainer has encouraged us to take our time as he learns how his body works when it’s not in pain. She’s been around the block, knows OTTBs, and knew what to ask of him to start with and is always open to adapting our plan based on where he’s telling us he can go at the time . My saddles are checked by the fitter at least once and more likely twice per year. Our vet lays hands on him every six weeks so we can catch any changes early and our farrier is happy to work with her to get him the care he needs for his feet. It’s taken a lot to get him fat (he is. He really, really is, we need to do alllll the trot sets) and happy, and while it was theoretically “simple” compared to a significant KS finding (we fixed the feet, we fixed the horse), I don’t think it would’ve happened without the team we have around us. Findings of any kind are one thing but findings without a team vs. with one that knows how to deal with them are another thing entirely.
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Amos hasn’t said anything that would damage the seller’s reputation, in my opinion, but I suppose that depends on what you understand the seller’s reputation to be, right? I know that most of the PPE vets familiar to the seller have a reputation of openly HATING to perform back rads. If Amos had posted here that they were interested in that horse, I could have told them -based off of reputation- to push for back xrays.
Since I know some trainers who get great horses from this seller, I’d suspect, just by looking at that horse’s picture, that something was amiss. Otherwise, he should have been swept off of his feet by a trainer/reseller before he even made it to the website. He’s a supermodel. If he were sound and sensible and a seller wanted the horse to go to a professional, I cannot imagine that being tough to find.
I know that the seller maintains that resellers will not buy horses with KS. I know that they ascribe what I would consider pain expressions to bad behavior. Dots would be connecting for me. I don’t know what, if anything, the business’ reputation is in Texan dressage barns.
The seller doesn’t have to answer every email with “Do you know these ten facts that would make you not want to buy from me as a rusty yet optimistic re-rider who fell in love with a big eye-catching horse’s pictures?” It is buyer beware. Amos’ initial post said “buyer beware” and listed a bunch of things that most of us read and thought “duh”.
That’s not damaging to a seller. Yes, the buyer should have stuck to the rivers and lakes that they’re used to and shopped locally so that they could ride the horse a couple times before committing. They admit that. People have reminded Amos over and over and over and over again. Resolved.
We have heard testimony from both sides and it is likely that there’s some bad facts that each side did not share. They both feel they were transparent. One profited, the other took it up the pooper. Horse shopping is like that sometimes.
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If anyone can provide an example of where JR represents herself as an expert on KS, then please share. Otherwise, I think people are over reaching by saying she has and I also think it is an unfair representation of JR.
And FWIW, I’ve searched/read JR’s posts on FB (including her personal page) that discuss KS and all I see is someone sharing their experience with KS, not someone pretending to be an expert on the matter.
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Just search her COTH posts. She’s been vocal about KS over the years and has also popped into the various threads of other people who have Benchmark horses who are unhappy with XYZ. Amos is not an isolated incident.
The above attitude is what people on this thread and elsewhere are responding negatively to. This horse was so clearly in pain in her program. There’s a disconnect. She has rants on FB targeted towards buyers that walk away from horses, but she can’t see why they walk, because she doesn’t have the eye to see horses in pain.
I am not anti-Benchmark. But I do wish she would stop trash-talking the buyers that walk away from KS. She should prove us all wrong and take care of a KS horse its whole life, so she can have the full picture. She gets a tic-tac sized sample of what KS is like because she’s flipping horses, often only staying a few days to a week in her program. AFAIK she has not had a KS horse that she maintained, competed, and kept comfortable for 5-10+ years. I give those people more weight to their opinions about KS, than someone who sells young horses who never had the demand of real ridden/collection work put on their backs. To be clear, racing is real work - but it is short, intense, at speed, and with lightweight riders while the horse isn’t full grown. The wheels tend to come off on KS horses once real collection or jumping starts and/or they’ve fully matured and their spinal growth plates have closed (7-10+ yoa).
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And it’s not just her own FB posts, which are what is easily searchable. As someone that has followed her for years, she frequently chimes in comment sections of her own posts, other professionals and publications with her stark opinions on KS.
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I believer the buyer has said all of the below, with the explicit intent of damaging the seller’s reputation:
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I think what many of us struggle with is that nowhere does JR does explicitly state “I AM AN EXPERT ON KS AND THESE ARE MY VIEWS”.
However, she does represent her views as backed by the sheer volume of horses that she sees, the many vets that she works with, the many PPEs that she has had access to, and the number of horses (many in the hands of professionals) that have gone on to successful careers. And uses that knowledge to denigrate the concerns of buyers who are willing to walk away from a horse because of radiographic evidence of KS.
It sits wrong with people like @beowulf and myself, people that have personally owned and maintained horses with KS, who have lived through the limitations, the expense, heartache of owning one of that is symptomatic.
There are only very specific circumstances under which I would ever own one again (and maybe not even then). And I do feel like it is a disservice to disparage those who may be making a lifelong commitment to an expensive animal, to discredit their concerns about a condition that may end up being career-limiting or even in some cases career-ending.
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The thing that has stuck in my craw since Amos entered the thread is that this horse was not Jessica’s typical fresh of the track OTTB. He had been off the track in a private home owned by a friend -
Since I read that, I have wondered what more there might be to know about the horse and his time with his owner during that period. “No issues” just doesn’t completely pass the smell test for me… maybe he was only ridden on a loose rein down the trail, but that’s not why most people buy a horse that looks and moves like that.
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