Benchmark Sporthorses?

[McGurk]

That was really well said, @floppyammy!

I agree, I would be very reluctant to buy a horse with either clinical signs or radiographic signs of KS, let alone both! I respect Redman’s view point, but do not agree with it, based on my own experience and my own, very different segment of the industry.

The problem that I have with the whole mess, other than the poor horse, is that the buyer is so determined to not only find the buyer at fault, but to attribute it to either malice or malfeasance.

The irony in all this, is that the unfortunate buyer is exactly the type of buyer Redman prefers to avoid, by her own statements. Her social media blast will likely only discourage other buyers like herself, which is a good thing. Pros and people experienced in rehabbing OTTBs, people with a better eye for looking at a horse under saddle and buyers with a higher risk tolerance will probably not be dissuaded and will understand the service Redman provides by sourcing these horses from the track and putting the post track rides on them.

The buyer has done a lot more damage to her own credibility than she has done to Redman’s.

[anonevent]

Yeah. The seller confirmed the first point. They’ve also said that they think the horse’s movement looks great. I couldn’t say if it’s negligent or just having strange opinions about how a healthy horse should move.

If Amos doesn’t get to have an opinion -clearly stated as opinion- then neither do you.

I agree with the vet’s approach. The seller’s frequent flyer vets HATE doing back X-rays. That’s not universal to all vets.

None of that tarnishes the seller’s reputation. The OP asked for insight about experience with the seller. Amos shared their’s.

[McGurk]

Amos said the seller had neither ethics or integrity. That’s an opinion, but it’s also a personal attack.

I think Amos is understandably upset, frustrated and concerned if she’s every going to have a sound horse to ride. If it stopped there, she’s have my sympathy and support.

But she’s determined to assign blame here, not to herself, not to her trainer and not to the vet. To the seller. And she put it on social media blast.

If her social media blast was just to warn people to get back xrays no matter what because of her bad experience, I’d be okay with that too. That’s a reasonable conclusion to draw from this experience. Or beware of buying a horse of the internet without trying it.

I’m not going to rehash the rest of the thread with you; reasonable people can look at the same circumstances and come to different conclusions. But ascribing motives to someone else crosses a line.

In the end, I think the buyer has done WAY more to damage her reputation than she has Redman’s.

[anonevent]

Yeah. I think the whole topic has been beaten to death. I somehow missed the part about a social media blast. In 200+ transactions a year, a seller is likely to have at least one dissatisfied buyer. Even if it was completely unavoidable, those experiences matter too.

[SpicyPRE]

@McGurk

In the end, I think the buyer has done WAY more to damage her reputation than she has Redman’s.

I respect your opinion of this and want to add that this is why most people who have a horse to sell dont want to sell to a person who doesnt have a professional representing them.

[McGurk]

Amen, sista!

[trubandloki]

@anonevent

Yeah. The seller confirmed the first point. They’ve also said that they think the horse’s movement looks great. I couldn’t say if it’s negligent or just having strange opinions about how a healthy horse should move.

Not just great, but one of the best moving TBs she has seen. (or wording similar to that)

[jvanrens]

@Groom_amp_Taxi

The thing that has stuck in my craw since Amos entered the thread is that this horse was not Jessica’s typical fresh of the track OTTB. He had been off the track in a private home owned by a friend -

@Jleegriffith

He absolutely was owned by a friend who had him since coming off the track and rode him regularly with no issues. She has an injury and sold me her two horses. Former owners don’t always want to be involved and I respect their privacy.

Since I read that, I have wondered what more there might be to know about the horse and his time with his owner during that period. “No issues” just doesn’t completely pass the smell test for me… maybe he was only ridden on a loose rein down the trail, but that’s not why most people buy a horse that looks and moves like that.

I keep on wondering how the former owner was injured.

[KellyS]

@trubandloki

Not just great, but one of the best moving TBs she has seen. (or wording similar to that)

I’m glad to know that COTH is full of perfect horse people who always say the right thing.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve made mistakes when evaluating horses, including their movement. I’ve also posted things on FB that I would not post now, several years down the road and wiser.

At least Jessica is out there doing it, learning along the way, finding these horses homes, and running a successful business.

I’d really like to know what credentials everyone else brings to the table to be so confident in their ability to judge someone else and seemingly take joy in it.

I don’t know anyone here, including Jessica, but the snarkiness and pettiness makes those of you engaging in it look bad, not her.

[vxf111]

@KellyS

I’d really like to know what credentials everyone else brings to the table to be so confident in their ability to judge someone else and seemingly take joy in it.

I think more than a few of us have horses with kissing spines. And we’re not snarking about Jessica as a person… just pointing out that this horse’s physical issues aren’t subtle so these are the realistic possibilities…

1. Jessica didn’t see it. In which case she’s not that great a judge of soundness.
2. Jessica did see it and didn’t care because she cared more about getting the horse sold.
3. Jessica did see it and intentionally didn’t investigate because she didn’t want to learn something she’d have to disclose that could hurt her sale prospects.
4. Jessica did see it and knew it was likely a soundness issue and engaged in something akin to lying by admission.

I’m not going to guess which of the four it is. I don’t know what was going through her mind. I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s the most innocuous explanation, #1. But, if so, maybe this will be a wake up call that despite selling hundreds of horses and widely sharing opinions on soundness, she’s not as good at spotting unsoundness as she thinks. And perhaps that might temper her opinions going forward.

[anonevent]

I can really see both buyer’s and seller’s perspectives for almost all of this if I think about it generously, but I don’t know what to make of that assertion about movement. I can’t attempt to Devil’s advocate that one.

[KellyS]

@vxf111

I think more than a few of us have horses with kissing spines.

And that makes you the expert and makes it okay to bash someone else with whom you disagree?

I’m sure if a bunch of sport horse vets got together, you’d get a wide variety of opinions on KS, ones that differ from yours.

I just don’t see what you all (group) are trying to accomplish with the continuing criticism and assumptions. ETA: Rubbing it in someone’s face is the worst way to convince them their opinion should change, so if you feel it’s a horse welfare issue, this would the worst approach to take. I think it’s more about ego and proving you’re right than doing what’s right for the horses.

I’ve always respected you so much based on your COTH posts. It’s been surprising to see your posts here because I never would have thought you’d be so unkind to someone else. Not that my opinion matters, I know.

[enjoytheride]

@jvanrens

I keep on wondering how the former owner was injured.

So now you’re suggesting the former owner was injured on this horse and there’s an even bigger cover up? LOL

[Jleegriffith]

Oh lord this thread becomes more ridiculous. I have two years of videos of him being ridden in a dressage saddle but I will not be sharing as my friend isnt even wearing a helmet She knew him on the track and has extensive tb knowledge.

Seeing the lunge video, I believe that says it all right there. Not debating the film’s but also know there was nothing like ever seen here. You bottle any horse up like that and see what happens! Shocked he didn’t flip over honestly.

Would like to know who Lauren is or beowolf who believes they know so much about our horses and my experience with kissing spine. We don’t operate in a vacuum. Of course I know which horses were vetted and purchased with kissing spine. Some don’t sell to the original buyer but all have sold. I’ve never euthanized one due to kissing spine but I absolutely do euthanize dangerous horse, horses that I don’t feel can have a bare minimum career and anything that I just don’t feel right about. I’ve euthanized two that I felt had edm and both did test positive on necropsy.

There are so many people who truly believe kissing spine means a horse should not have a career. Do I disagree? Absolutely I do. I see first hand horses I’ve sold with kissing spine (known to buyers) actively competing anywhere from a year to 15 years post purchase. I love keeping in touch with buyers so it’s not like I’m unaware.

I have a different viewpoint but so many people run to back films at any sign of behavior without looking at their riding, tack fit and a million other factors.

I took back an incredible horse someone wanted to euthanize because of very mild kissing spine and behavior issues. We never had an issue. He came back and again we had no issues. He sold and was top three at every event. Was it the horse or maybe just the riding? So many things can change when a horse goes from one program to another.

If research is correct and over 50%-80% of horses have kissing spine then do we just deem them all worthless? Those are the questions I ask. I talk to every vet I know about it because I want to know what they see and what do they think about the kissing spine hysteria. How many horses truly are behavioral?

For every person saying that you can spot kissing spine on a horse, I agree to disagree. I have sent probably 600 horses to ppes with a lot of different vets. I have not seen a clinical exam being an accurate predictor of what the radiographs will be. Horses with zero pain, lovely muscle, good shape on the flat and over fences and boom kissing spine. Your poorly muscled upside down weak backed horse and nope they don’t have it. I challenge you all to answer how many PPE’s are you attending? How much experience do you have? Fear mongering is a real thing in the past two years over backs.

I don’t know how other people who do sales are handling it but lots of us talk. It’s a tight community. Some people won’t even entertain buyers who want back films. I am not one of them. It’s not up to me what films people take.

I do hear all the vets talking to buyers about what kissing spines may mean for horses. They spend a lot of time trying to educate but as I see on this thread some simply are absolutely deal breaker and that’s OK!

There are many different degrees of findings in the back. I think there will be a lot more research coming on it. Did it always exist and we just now can xray it in the field? Position of the horse for the film’s matters a lot in how films should be taken. It’s something I think about daily.

When I read this thread, I also ponder mental health. I am sure some people literally give no shits what they write if they believe it to be true but does anyone stop to look at the qualifications of those writing these nasty things. Someone saying oh Jessica sells lots of horses with active kissing spine. How do know this? I bet anyone who sells horses in any sales capacity sells horses with kissing spine if 80% of horses have kissing spine. It feels very mean girl kind of behavior and not much like eventers. I see a lot of dressage people commenting and it’s like dressage hub blog. No wonders trainers are quitting, harming themselves, suicide, etc. Your words have impact. I challenge each of you to be better. Make a difference in the horse world. I’ve rehomed easily 1000s of thoroughbreds into new jobs. I love what I do. I’m not getting rich. There is no glory in it. If my business folds, then what? So many people are so exhausted from this sort of crap they have quit. You all go take your chances buying fresh off the track now at prices equal to mine. Let me how well you do

PPE’s are hours upon hours of time. I am not sending horses to a ppe that I don’t think can pass a ppe. That is just plain ridiculous and a waste of time for my staff, vets staff and quite frankly tarnishes any reputation. Horses right off the track aren’t going to look like a sport horse but they need to vet clean. If it doesn’t jog sound, I’m not buying it. Your business would fail if you didn’t have the ability to judge a sound horse.

I prefer a ppe because that takes my opinion out of the equation. You vet that horse however intensely you want. Some spend $4k on a ppe and that is their right.

[anonevent]

There’s no group conspiracy at work. They took the time to write you a very detailed, unimpassioned, unbiased response out of generosity -without any bashing of anyone or making egotistical maneuvers. Do you really think they deserve those accusations from you? (Rhetorical)

[jvanrens]

@enjoytheride

@jvanrens

I keep on wondering how the former owner was injured.

So now you’re suggesting the former owner was injured on this horse and there’s an even bigger cover up? LOL

No, just that I’m wondering how she was injured.

[BostonHJ]

I have a lot to say but most of it is about the past in this situation and probably not constructive.

OP you clearly want to do right by this horse - get it to another trainer, ASAP. One who has loads of experience in re-starting TBs. I know Amos has been off the track some time but his hard wiring is the same as one freshly off and these trainers will have much better tools to get you off to a good post-surgery fresh start. There are plenty of dressage (and other) trainers who were never taught how to bring along a big young thoroughbred.

I understand if your trainer was clutching the long lines because she was afraid - but she should admit she is out of her wheelhouse. As others have said, yes, the horse is in pain, but his behavior in that video could be easily replicated with most young thoroughbreds unfamiliar with lunging.

[KellyS]

@Jleegriffith

When I read this thread, I also ponder mental health. I am sure some people literally give no shits what they write if they believe it to be true but does anyone stop to look at the qualifications of those writing these nasty things. Someone saying oh Jessica sells lots of horses with active kissing spine. How do know this? I bet anyone who sells horses in any sales capacity sells horses with kissing spine if 80% of horses have kissing spine. It feels very mean girl kind of behavior and not much like eventers. I see a lot of dressage people commenting and it’s like dressage hub blog. No wonders trainers are quitting, harming themselves, suicide, etc. Your words have impact. I challenge each of you to be better. Make a difference in the horse world. I’ve rehomed easily 1000s of thoroughbreds into new jobs. I love what I do. I’m not getting rich. There is no glory in it. If my business folds, then what? So many people are so exhausted from this sort of crap they have quit.

[Marigold]

@vxf111

I’m not going to guess which of the four it is.

I know Jessica has responded since this post and her comments are much more relevant than mine, but I didn’t want to let this post stand without voicing the very likely but unmentioned option 5: Jessica did see some issues (this seems likely given that she referenced them in her sales ad) and thought based on the progressive improvement she was witnessing under her riders (which is documented on video) that it was behavioral and not veterinary.

I don’t think it’s a fair assessment of the situation to say all options lead to either uneducated, uncaring, or malicious. With xray vision it is easy to see the problem is veterinary, but she does not have that and I don’t expect her to pay for back xrays for multitudes of horses she is offering under $15k.

I agree with @KellyS completely.

[Simkie]

@Jleegriffith

Seeing the lunge video, I believe that says it all right there. Not debating the film’s but also know there was nothing like ever seen here. You bottle any horse up like that and see what happens! Shocked he didn’t flip over honestly.

Yo, so this is the pro ride that you sent this horse to. Amos offered to coordinate a convo between you and the trainer she lined up…did you take her up on that offer? Did you do any of this?

@Jleegriffith

Sometimes I do some research and won’t set an appointment because I don’t think someone is the right fit for my program, have heard something negative or myself had a bad experience.

For a horse that you billed as a “pro ride” with “behavioral issues,” the pro lined up for the horse seems important. Because, come on, let’s be real: saying the horse needs a “pro ride” doesn’t mean that anyone out there that takes money to work with horses will be a good fit. You’re saying he needs something specific. So did you do anything to confirm this particular pro could provide what you thought this horse needed?

@Jleegriffith

I love keeping in touch with buyers so it’s not like I’m unaware.

Unless it’s via phone, lol, amirite? (Did you ever call @Amos back?)