Maybe we are watching different videos because I see slack in the lines expect for the points where he’s off the ground.
Radiographs were performed after this video. If I recall correctly the vet had been called, but not made it out to the farm yet. We don’t have a ton of vets in the area, so waiting a couple of weeks before the vet comes out is not abnormal.
I don’t really see where he was chased either, I didn’t see a whip cracking or vocal cues that would be aggressive to a horse.
Maybe a smaller area would have benefitted, unclear. I’ve seen videos of her riding him as well, same deal, chin to the chest and there’s slack in the reins. From what I have learned about severe KS, this is a very characteristic posturing.
I asked you directly about your experience, since you stated you knew more than most about KS. If you never said that, I probably would have passed this thread by. I’m fairly neutral about your business. Instead of answering these questions you launched into a diatribe, going so far as to question people’s mental health for… questioning you?
Have you ever rehabbed a KS horse from bone shave or lig snip and owned it long term (3-5+ years?) Maybe you’ve competed a horse with KS? How did you manage its comfort and soundness over the years? What was the outcome?
I asked you these things because I am trying to understand the depth of knowledge you have about managing the disease. My impression is your experience is limited to diagnostics in young horses, not treatment and management long-term. The former does not prepare you for the latter.
I think just about everyone on this thread agrees you don’t have an eye for spotting it. That doesn’t mean other people can’t see the pain symptoms for what they are.
I have been more gracious about your person than many on this thread, so I’m not sure why it’s just me you’re coming for. Most of my observations were neutral, though I did express I disagreed with your version of sound and opinions of KS - or as you word it, “KS Hysteria”. Disagreement does not constitute as a personal attack.
It is objectively true the horse you sold was lame and symptomatic for kissing spine in his sale videos. My genuine hope is that this can inform your decisions and eye going forward. Maybe now it all makes sense why he was difficult for your rider. Maybe this helps helps you place them in a better fit such as a low level or trail home.
Some KS horses are very particular with how they are ridden, and improve with less constriction and more “forward and out” riding. They will improve for a few days, and then you have a string of bad days when you up the “ask” again. Rinse/repeat. That’s a pain symptom common with the disease.
I don’t believe all KS horses should not be ridden or have no future. I know many that have good careers including my own - with lots of management and maintenance. But in this day and age with horses being so cost prohibitive, and many of the management must-haves (like 24/7 turnout) unreachable for the average ammy, it’s not an advisable purchase for most sport-horse homes.
Been there done that. I volunteered for CANTER at Suffolk for decades and took home horses at the end of the each meet before your program existed. All my TBs have gone on to be competition and USPC horses. I have a guilty habit of keeping them though several were intended as resales. So far my eye hasn’t let me down, but I acknowledge I have also been extraordinarily lucky and had the luxury of several accomplished BNTs with OTTB experience teach me how to find and produce a nice horse.
I hope you see the irony in accusing some posters of being “mean girls” and having mental issues, but in that same breath also routinely post on social media putting other people on signal blast several times a year. It doesn’t feel very good when the roles are reversed.
And this is the reason that euthanasia was on the table. If he ever returns to soundness and can be in a program, when will he become painful again and explode. It’s a very real concern.
How on earth were they being unkind? I didn’t get that impression at all. I feel like you are seeing what you want to see based on your own emotions. Which, we all do that. But I don’t think unkindness is there from that poster.
So much of what you have said and inferred about me has been uncalled for and harassing. You accused me of being a liar multiple times, and were proved wrong. But heaven forbid someone disparage Ms Redman. You ride (hard for) for your girl and that’s fine. My ego isn’t that fragile or I never would have posted my original response.
Edited to clarify I do not think TWilson literally is a rider for Ms. Redman. Poor choice of words.
Why is it that the things you did wrong are mistakes, but the things the seller did wrong are malice/lack of ethics or integrity?
What’s the saying… don’t attribute to malice that which can equally be explained by ignorance?
Both of you thought the horse was sound and just quirky. You saw videos of how he went when the seller had him, and chose to buy him. She did not coerce you into buying him against your will.
Saying “buyer beware, I bought this horse from Benchmark and he became very explosive after I brought him home and ended up having bad kissing spine” is totally reasonable. The trashing of her character because she seemingly made the same mistake as you and got mesmerized by a tall, pretty horse with a nice neck and lots of toe flicking action? Not nearly as productive.
You ended up in an unfortunate situation and that sucks, but that doesn’t mean the seller is any more lacking in ethics than you are.
You’re right I did call you a liar and that was not nice. I apologize. I still wouldn’t have called you back though. And I don’t ride for the seller but I can see where you might think that, what with Wilson being such a hugely uncommon name. How many of us could there possibly be?
The difference is that she is a professional and self proclaimed KS expert. You can’t have it both ways, to proclaim your expertise on one hand, and then claim ignorance on the other. A professional is always held to a higher standard, in any situation.
She saw dangerous behavior, him almost unseating her professional rider (which wan’t shown on video), and allowed them to keep riding him, then sold him. Yet again I will propose the question no one wants to answer…Would it have been ok for me to resell him after seeing the behavior I saw, to my knowledge at the time it was a training issue?
According to her vet she failed to disclose the behaviors she clearly saw. If that is true, it is clear misrepresentation which is unethical.
Adults get on the phone and talk to people, they don’t reply “Text me anytime!” after being asked politely multiple times to return a phone call. That was essentially flipping me the bird. Smells bad.
I will offer a different perspective here just in an attempt to decrease your feelings of suspicion or offense on this point. There are good reasons someone might prefer a text or email exchange with someone over a phone call. I generally do and not just in situations that may become tense.
In this situation, you and seller had a history of written communication which you have cited to multiple times in this thread. That suggests to me that this is the way this seller prefers to communicate and you were previously fine with that and communicated back that way. This is how seller does business.
I also have a full-time job but significant other interests and commitments. I conduct those other things exclusively via email/whatsapp b/c I can engage with people in the pockets of downtime during my job. I cannot get on a non-work-related phone call at the office without colleagues overhearing me. I also don’t like to take phone calls when I’m out and about as I have a horror of people conducting their business in public like so many do, blathering on in restaurants, cafes, shops, trains, etc. I can only have calls at home or occasionally in a taxi or other rare private/public space for this reason, but I can text/email much more freely throughout the day.
The second big reason I prefer written communication is for the exact situation you present in this thread: I can refer back to that written record. You are doing exactly that here, sharing your exact words to Jess during the sales process in order to support your contentions. Jess can do the same. That’s very helpful for both sides when trying to resolve differences of opinion. If all of this had been by phone call, you could not produce proof of what you disclosed to Jess about your situation. Aren’t you glad you can?
I was the victim of fraud by someone I hired and trusted last year. When the fraud was discovered he tried to re-frame our arrangement to make it out as though there was no fraud. Luckily our entire exchange over the span of a year was captured on whatsapp (which I immediately downloaded in case he tried to go back and delete messages - another reason I favour email). I simply screenshot the pertinent communications and refuted him lie by lie. He’s now halfway through paying me back the money he stole.
Without that written record I would have had a much more difficult time prevailing.
I always preferred written communications in a professional setting and this experience only strengthened that.
Someone esp in a professional setting preferring text over a call is not ‘flipping the bird’ nor does it ‘smell bad’. It is a professional preference for some and for very good reasons. If you like the talking, phone call, face-to-face chat type seller, that’s fine. But someone preferring written comms is in no way indicative of their being shady or flipping the bird. That projection is unfair and unkind and the implication is likely untrue.
Neither voice OR text communication is morally better or more professional either. Both have their uses and in general, the professional in the interaction - not the customer - gets to decide which method is used. The professional sets the expectations from the first interaction, and Jess actually does a very good job of spelling out a lot of this on her website. From what I can tell, her business is run mainly over messaging.
Now, if all GENUINE attempts at communication are ignored, that’s different. But there has to be a genuine attempt.
“Dangerous horse” is a judgment call I’m not sure you’re qualified to make. You’re implying that she should not have sold the horse at all to anyone, and based on the information she had I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. Now, I don’t think she necessarily should have sold the horse into a situation like yours either, but that’s a different argument.
Sellers routinely hype the horses they have (“best mover I’ve ever seen!” ) and the number of horses I see advertised as a “10 mover” when the video reveals they are really just average is astounding. If you’re going to buy off video, then you really have to be objective about what you see and not what the seller says you should see.
I’m sorry you’re in this situation and I’m very sorry for the horse. For what it’s worth, I would have euthanized after getting those back rads and the poor prognosis.
Anyway, with the seller present to call posters “mean girls”, request their identities, accuse posters of hating her personally, threaten that comments on this forum are responsible for future and past horse seller suicides and the demise of businesses, the stakes are raising a bit too high for me. I’m running away from this thread.
Hopefully the aptly named Final Deception will sail through surgery and recovery, going on to GP and prove the seller right that KS is not a physical limitation. Or maybe he’ll go on to be a famous horsey model. I’d buy whatever that face is selling. Best of luck, Amos, seller, and everyone involved.
I’m sorry, what? Do none of you actually work in a professional setting with other humans? Do you not have clients?
This is not a $50 sweatshirt sale gone bad, it’s a 5-figure horse sale where the buyer is now faced with expensive surgery and a lifetime of care and/or putting the horse down. You absolutely pick up the phone here, and I say that as someone who would prefer not to talk to other humans but also likes to resolve issues quickly and amicably.
Tone and intent are incredibly hard to read via email or text. It is not a good medium for discussing nuanced and difficult things. Pick up the freaking phone. Have a conversation like humans and adults. After the conversation, send an email detailing what was agreed upon during the conversation and ask the other party to confirm it. This is not hard.
As a professional with literally hundreds of millions of dollars on the line when we do deals, I absolutely insist on written records of communications especially if/when things go pear shaped. Please read my post above about how the ability to go back to a written record is vital to resolution of conflict.
Amos themselves has benefitted from the fact that the pre-sale comms were via text/email and she can refer to them to make her points.
When we do do things via phone call/zoom, 100% of the time I circulate a written summary of the call with all discussions, decisions, and open questions/next steps memorialised and request all participants to confirm or correct the contents thereof. But it’s much easier to just have it happen via written record from go. Then there’s zero chance of ‘Oh, you forgot to summarise this and I forgot you forgot when you circulated the summary.’
Yeah, no one has time for that nonsense.
Insistence that a phone call is the only legitimate reaction is antiquated and, I say this not to be mean but just factually, fairly unsophisticated in today’s world of transactions being conducted across time zones and markets and among people with different language abilities.
If all you have is a phone call, all you have is he said-she said, unless that phone call was recorded. See, also, my example above. The minute I knew this man was shady you could not have paid me to have a phone call with him. Whatever he said, he would have denied later.
Written comms are vital in professional transactions, more so when a lot of money is involved. Good luck proving that you agreed/didn’t agree to or disclosed/didn’t disclose XYZ when all you have on your side is, ‘This is what I said/they said in our phone call!’
Tone and emotion are more unpredictable in verbal comms, too. From the way buyer is talking here (you have no ethics; adults make phone calls; etc. - echoed by you referring to people who prefer written comms as not ‘adult’ and ‘human’) I would suspect getting on the phone with them would quickly escalate into accusations and highly emotional expressions. Better in those cases to stick to something less immediate and emotional like written comms.
When we do phone calls/video calls, they invariably are followed with a written summary and almost always recorded and archived. Written communication skips these steps.
We do do ‘all hands’ calls when there are tons of moving parts in a big agreement - page turns of the document discussing all changes and who will concede what, but those are always followed by another redline of that document - very different from discussing who said what and what each party thinks of a horse’s way of going and behaviour, or a buyer’s experience, etc.
Stuff like that must be via written record or you are screwed, both sides. Buyer here must acknowledge the benefit to her of being able to reproduce comms between herself and seller as she has done so more than once in this thread alone. To simultaneously use those written records to support her claims and yet also insist that only a phone call is legit is disingenuous at best.
It’s also a red flag to me that she keeps saying she left only a very vague message for seller about wanting to discuss this horse, purposefully not giving any further info about what exactly she wanted to discuss. This suggests to me that she was setting up seller, sort of a gotcha situation, admitting she was being deliberately vague about what she wanted to discuss. That to me looks shadier than wanting to communicate via text.
) and the number of horses I see advertised as a “10 mover” when the video reveals they are really just average is astounding. If you’re going to buy off video, then you really have to be objective about what you see and not what the seller says you should see.