I agree with this. And Amos has STILL not once made it clear what she wants or if she’s ever actually communicated what that is to Jess. A refund? Vet bill paid? A trade? Just say what you want.
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I don’t work for a corporation. I do big deals. Little old you needs to think outside the corporate box.
20 years ago calls were more frequent but, again, when working across time zones/markets and with varying language abilities, email was king back then, too. Blackberries were all the rage and not for their generally crappy call capabilities.
As someone who conducts her practice in 3 languages routinely, I can tell you I’m way more comfortable reading the one I did not grow up speaking than being on a call with a native speaker who speaks fast, has a regional accent, and/or uses slang that I don’t know b/c I have visited but never lived immersed in that language.
Try not to be so insulting in your discussions. It makes me wonder what ‘multi-billion dollar global corporations’ would hire someone with such belittling communication skills. It also makes me seriously doubt you work across cultures and languages in your ‘global’ work or you would absolutely know that written is standard for multilingual comms.
Just be polite and professional here. No need to fake LOL and call people non-human and non-adult.
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Just for those of us who missed it, @wanderlust mocked me for my POV here making up a fake hashtag for what I was saying and belittling my experience while claiming she has spent 20 years working for multi-billion dollar global companies.
She didn’t want to stand by that written communication so she quickly dirty deleted it.
I could not have made my point about the importance of written comms and preserving them better than she has by being uncivil and then trying to hide any evidence of that behaviour.
ETA: for clarity, she referred to herself as ‘little old me’ in her mocking tone which is why I said ‘little old you’. Just want to make clear that was a reference to her language.
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No, I decided I was done with this thread and didn’t want to get into any more back and forth because it had taken a turn for the stupid.
But you just 100% illustrated my point that it is incredibly hard to read tone in written communication, so thank you for that and the personal insults.
In the end feel very sorry for the purchaser. I feel semi-sorry for Jess that this thread has gone nuts. I hope the horse continues to get the help he needs, which the purchaser seems very willing to give.
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Dang, I missed their post.
It’s me that works for a giant conglomerate corporation. I say that because it’s easier than saying I work for a smaller company that’s owned by Giant Corporation, and spend my days working with and coordinating between private and public customers, domestic and international vendors, customs officials on both sides, shipping and logistics companies (domestic and international), as well as engineers from all nationalities and everyone in between. And that’s just a tiny part of my job.
The world has not operated on a face-to-face or voice based system in decades, especially not when money is involved.
ETA: to be clear, this is all because Wanderlust claimed that text-based communication was unprofessional and not standard vs phone calls. The nuanced answer is: both are used. But written communication is preferred in business for a reason.
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QFP - calling people here who disagree with her ‘stupid’. Add that to not ‘human’ or ‘adult’. Not professional or civil at all. Badly done all around. I’d want to delete that stuff and run away, too.
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I promise her rider sits on plenty of horses who try to unseat her. 'Tis the nature of working with fit young horses and isn’t a red flag in and of itself.
Yes, it would have been ok for you to sell him if you believed it was a training issue and you disclosed it. People find themselves and even their trainers overhorsed all the time.
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Pretty sure I called the thread stupid, not the people. It’s gone way off the rails of the initial post of people asking for opinions on Benchmark, and I was/am done contributing to that.
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No, she claimed she was ‘little old me’ who has worked for 20 years running programmes of some sort for multi-million dollar global corps. She made up a mocking hashtag of my/your points. That’s what I was responding to. It was very belittling and I can see why she deleted it.
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Nope. You said the thread took a turn for the stupid which can only happen b/c of the people posting.
I only posted about the idea that failure to communicate by phone call = bad and wrong.
I feel very sorry for the buyer, for the seller for trying her hardest but not catching what was wrong with this horse in the context of her programme (i.e., not vetting the horses she takes on but evaluating them by eye, thinking improvement with more rides = behaviour issues being worked through, etc.), and mostly for the horse who must be in terrible pain most of his brief life.
No winners here but I think no villains either.
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Absolutely!
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I have been quietly reading along. IMO Amos created a new account from her previous one, searched for threads about benchmark and posted just to rake Jess over the coals.
The actual OP was from months prior. Amos, understandably, is really upset. However from a complete outsiders view they are way out of line. I don’t know if the definition of “pro ride” has changed but I always took that as the horse has major issues which require a big tool box and connections to excellent vets and farriers.
She convinced Jess that this horse was going to a good program. A program she didn’t have any hands on experience with. I don’t blame Jess for not wanting to have a phone conversation because paper trails have always been king. Even before texting and email.
I question Amos’ authenticity on “just wanting to talk” because it’s weird to me that her trainer had to SHOW her why she wouldn’t get back on. I’ve had horses that people didn’t feel comfortable riding and I took them at their word. I didn’t need a demonstration of the behavior. I also will side eye any horse professional that intentionally makes a horse act out the way her trainer did. I wonder if the trainer knows these videos have been posted here.
At the end of the day we have a buyer who convinced a seller that a “pro ride” horse should go to them. The seller definitely screwed up by thinking it was behavioral only but who among us hasn’t trusted our friends or made a bad call with regards to pain vs behavior? This is a learning point for Jess.
I don’t think Amos’ stated conversations with anyone including the vet can be trusted. I’ve had vets tell me what I’m asking for is over kill but they do it anyway. Especially for PPEs.
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I keep checking this thread hoping for updates on how the horse is doing, but am continually disappointed to see so much nasty pointless back-and-forth. Would be nice if those of you that have dug in your heels and continue to go on and on and on would give it a rest. But, well, this is COTH and I know threads will often take a life of their own and there’s nothing one can do but step away when it gets to a point where keeping up with a thread becomes downright frustrating. Shame… because I’d love to hear more about how this lovely horse is doing, if @Amos would provide an update (or better yet, start a new thread).
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Yes, thank you. I think the majority of us reading this would like to see this thread (and the unpleasantness) die a quiet death. And then separately have a thread in which Amos updates on her horse. Again, I think the majority of us - who may not be the most vocal - would like to hear how things are going and provide support and encouragement for what is going to be a long, difficult road.
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So you somehow found out that the horse had displayed “dangerous” behavior not shown on the video, and still decided to proceed with buying him sight unseen because you were told it was a training issue and not a pain issue?
Truly, what did you think was going to happen?
You seem quite determined to be the victim … for all the times you’ve admitted to having make “mistakes” in the buying process, you sure seem to believe it’s the seller’s responsibility to save you from yourself and make sure your mistakes have no ramifications for you.
Mostly I just feel sad for the horse.
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FWIW, I am in the camp. I meant to comment only to suggest not implying malice to a preference for written communications.
I feel very sorry for the buyer here and really hope her horse makes great improvement post-surgery and she ends up with a rideable, enjoyable horse for many many years. I know next to nothing about KS and would follow that journey closely to learn more, just as I’ve learned a lot in this thread.
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The irony of that post was her posting on Facebook how “ammies” are ruining horses and the horse sport because we can’t ride TBs the way they need to be ridden. Funny myself and the 50+ ammies I know that ride TBs and are kicking ass would say otherwise.
It’s ok for her to mean girl comment about things but not others to have valid concerns about her actions?
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Option #5, and the most likely in my opinion: Jessica did see tension and attributed it to a training issue given what she knew about the horse and that she felt it improved over the few rides she gave the horse.
I’m still having a hard time after 800 posts believing that Jessica was conniving to sell this horse to an uneducated buyer because she knew he was unfixable.
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She’s not wrong considering Amos. I think it’s crappy that ammy=clueless but let’s be honest. Jess’ opinions aren’t directed towards ammys as defined by the various governing bodies. It’s directed towards the weekend warriors who want a horse that can be sound doing random things. The person who acts like a horse is a bicycle for example.
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Maybe we are. To illustrate what I mean, I’ll copy some screenshots and explain.
In each of the images above, the part of the lunge line from where it is connected to the bit to where it runs through the ring on the surcingle is completely, 100% straight, which means it is taut. There is no loop, no wave, no slack in any of them. Because this is the part of the line that is connected to the horse’s mouth, this is the part of the line exerting pressure on the horse’s head.
In each of these screenshots, the horse’s head is severely behind the vertical (if you drew a vertical line from the ground to the sky that intersected with his forehead, you can see that the rest of his head is many degrees behind that line). This is a scary and uncomfortable position for a horse of any physical condition to be in (among other reasons, it is harder for them to breathe, see, and balance in this position - they feel very restricted).
In order for him to move his nose out to the vertical, he would have to move his mouth further away from the barrel of his body - that is, the amount of lunge line connecting his mouth to his body would have to increase in length. Without any slack in that part of the line, the only way he can lengthen that line is to push with his mouth into the existing pressure and drag the line forward. No OTTB at this stage in their training has the first idea of how to do that. Instead, they perceive the taut line as a brick wall of sorts, and do not comprehend any possibility of moving their head from the place it has been restricted to.
Again, being forcibly held in this position is mentally scary and physically uncomfortable for any horse (they are struggling to breathe, see, and balance). Many, many horses will react with understandable panic to this situation, even if they were 100% comfortable and sound before they were tacked up, because that is a lot of mental and physical pressure to withstand for any prey animal. When you look at the unnatural curvature this puts into his spine and then consider that this particular horse has significant pathology in his spine, you can logically see that the physical discomfort he must be experiencing is enormous.
I included the last screenshot (the beowulf one) because I’m wondering if this is what you are seeing when you say that there is slack in the lines. In this screenshot, the line between the trainer and the horse has some slack, but there is still no slack between the surcingle and his mouth. That line is still straight. The horse’s head is still significantly behind the vertical. He still cannot comfortably breathe, see, or balance. He still does not know how to escape or resolve the situation.
She is still holding a lunge whip. She is still asking him to move forward with these lines attached in this way (she wants him to move forward more slowly than he is, but she does want him to trot). That is forward pressure. Under normal circumstances it is not at all an unreasonable amount of forward pressure, but to a horse who’s head is tied to his chest he now has forward pressure but feels he has no way to move forward. So he goes up. I’d go up, too. Can’t go forward, can’t go backward, being told to move - at that point, he’s out of reasonable options. It is the same combination of pressures that created a panic response in my friend’s horse and resulted in him rearing, flipping, and losing his life. Your boy is incredibly reserved to be merely bucking.
His chin is not to his chest in the ridden videos from Benchmark. He does still tend to carry his head slightly behind the vertical, but he occasionally tosses it forward and up in the air without restriction from the rider (demonstrating that he feels he can move it where he wants to). He’s obviously still not wholly comfortable, but he feels there is somewhere he can go, and that makes a massive difference in how explosive a horse (any horse) will present. Energy that has somewhere to go will go there. Energy that doesn’t will build, and then explode. I encourage you to look closely at your ridden videos and truly ask yourself if there is anywhere that this horse feels he can go, because there certainly is not on the lunge.
Again, for extreme clarity: I am not saying this horse does not have pathology. I am not saying this horse is comfortable. I am not even saying he is safe (I’m not saying he’s unsafe either - I really have no way to comment on that). What I am saying is that I believe his explosiveness is, at least in part, driven by circumstance.
I was going to respond to this, but no need as I agree completely with Boston HJ’s response (bolding my own because that is extra important):
For all the reasons outlined in their post and more, FitzE is absolutely correct about this (as is @fivestrideline):
In my line of work, if it’s not in writing it may as well be fairytales. I still talk on the phone these days, but only to chat. The important stuff is all in writing, and that is all the more critical when strong feeling is involved from one or more parties.
Great post, Sticky.
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