Benchmark Sporthorses?

[Pico_Banana]

@firecracker

I keep checking this thread hoping for updates on how the horse is doing, but am continually disappointed to see so much nasty pointless back-and-forth. Would be nice if those of you that have dug in your heels and continue to go on and on and on would give it a rest. But, well, this is COTH and I know threads will often take a life of their own and there’s nothing one can do but step away when it gets to a point where keeping up with a thread becomes downright frustrating. Shame… because I’d love to hear more about how this lovely horse is doing, if @Amos would provide an update (or better yet, start a new thread).

Yes, thank you. I think the majority of us reading this would like to see this thread (and the unpleasantness) die a quiet death. And then separately have a thread in which Amos updates on her horse. Again, I think the majority of us - who may not be the most vocal - would like to hear how things are going and provide support and encouragement for what is going to be a long, difficult road.

[Sticky_Situation]

So you somehow found out that the horse had displayed “dangerous” behavior not shown on the video, and still decided to proceed with buying him sight unseen because you were told it was a training issue and not a pain issue?

Truly, what did you think was going to happen?

You seem quite determined to be the victim … for all the times you’ve admitted to having make “mistakes” in the buying process, you sure seem to believe it’s the seller’s responsibility to save you from yourself and make sure your mistakes have no ramifications for you.

Mostly I just feel sad for the horse.

[FitzE]

@Pico_Banana

Again, I think the majority of us - who may not be the most vocal - would like to hear how things are going and provide support and encouragement for what is going to be a long, difficult road.

FWIW, I am in the camp. I meant to comment only to suggest not implying malice to a preference for written communications.

I feel very sorry for the buyer here and really hope her horse makes great improvement post-surgery and she ends up with a rideable, enjoyable horse for many many years. I know next to nothing about KS and would follow that journey closely to learn more, just as I’ve learned a lot in this thread.

[Jealoushe]

The irony of that post was her posting on Facebook how “ammies” are ruining horses and the horse sport because we can’t ride TBs the way they need to be ridden. Funny myself and the 50+ ammies I know that ride TBs and are kicking ass would say otherwise.

It’s ok for her to mean girl comment about things but not others to have valid concerns about her actions?

[blue_heron]

Option #5, and the most likely in my opinion: Jessica did see tension and attributed it to a training issue given what she knew about the horse and that she felt it improved over the few rides she gave the horse.

I’m still having a hard time after 800 posts believing that Jessica was conniving to sell this horse to an uneducated buyer because she knew he was unfixable.

[Platoon]

She’s not wrong considering Amos. I think it’s crappy that ammy=clueless but let’s be honest. Jess’ opinions aren’t directed towards ammys as defined by the various governing bodies. It’s directed towards the weekend warriors who want a horse that can be sound doing random things. The person who acts like a horse is a bicycle for example.

[Marigold]

@Amos

Maybe we are watching different videos because I see slack in the lines expect for the points where he’s off the ground.

Maybe we are. To illustrate what I mean, I’ll copy some screenshots and explain.

@Djones

@kt

@kt

@beowulf

In each of the images above, the part of the lunge line from where it is connected to the bit to where it runs through the ring on the surcingle is completely, 100% straight, which means it is taut. There is no loop, no wave, no slack in any of them. Because this is the part of the line that is connected to the horse’s mouth, this is the part of the line exerting pressure on the horse’s head.

In each of these screenshots, the horse’s head is severely behind the vertical (if you drew a vertical line from the ground to the sky that intersected with his forehead, you can see that the rest of his head is many degrees behind that line). This is a scary and uncomfortable position for a horse of any physical condition to be in (among other reasons, it is harder for them to breathe, see, and balance in this position - they feel very restricted).

In order for him to move his nose out to the vertical, he would have to move his mouth further away from the barrel of his body - that is, the amount of lunge line connecting his mouth to his body would have to increase in length. Without any slack in that part of the line, the only way he can lengthen that line is to push with his mouth into the existing pressure and drag the line forward. No OTTB at this stage in their training has the first idea of how to do that. Instead, they perceive the taut line as a brick wall of sorts, and do not comprehend any possibility of moving their head from the place it has been restricted to.

Again, being forcibly held in this position is mentally scary and physically uncomfortable for any horse (they are struggling to breathe, see, and balance). Many, many horses will react with understandable panic to this situation, even if they were 100% comfortable and sound before they were tacked up, because that is a lot of mental and physical pressure to withstand for any prey animal. When you look at the unnatural curvature this puts into his spine and then consider that this particular horse has significant pathology in his spine, you can logically see that the physical discomfort he must be experiencing is enormous.

I included the last screenshot (the beowulf one) because I’m wondering if this is what you are seeing when you say that there is slack in the lines. In this screenshot, the line between the trainer and the horse has some slack, but there is still no slack between the surcingle and his mouth. That line is still straight. The horse’s head is still significantly behind the vertical. He still cannot comfortably breathe, see, or balance. He still does not know how to escape or resolve the situation.

@Amos

I don’t really see where he was chased either, I didn’t see a whip cracking or vocal cues that would be aggressive to a horse.

She is still holding a lunge whip. She is still asking him to move forward with these lines attached in this way (she wants him to move forward more slowly than he is, but she does want him to trot). That is forward pressure. Under normal circumstances it is not at all an unreasonable amount of forward pressure, but to a horse who’s head is tied to his chest he now has forward pressure but feels he has no way to move forward. So he goes up. I’d go up, too. Can’t go forward, can’t go backward, being told to move - at that point, he’s out of reasonable options. It is the same combination of pressures that created a panic response in my friend’s horse and resulted in him rearing, flipping, and losing his life. Your boy is incredibly reserved to be merely bucking.

@Amos

I’ve seen videos of her riding him as well, same deal, chin to the chest and there’s slack in the reins. From what I have learned about severe KS, this is a very characteristic posturing.

His chin is not to his chest in the ridden videos from Benchmark. He does still tend to carry his head slightly behind the vertical, but he occasionally tosses it forward and up in the air without restriction from the rider (demonstrating that he feels he can move it where he wants to). He’s obviously still not wholly comfortable, but he feels there is somewhere he can go, and that makes a massive difference in how explosive a horse (any horse) will present. Energy that has somewhere to go will go there. Energy that doesn’t will build, and then explode. I encourage you to look closely at your ridden videos and truly ask yourself if there is anywhere that this horse feels he can go, because there certainly is not on the lunge.

Again, for extreme clarity: I am not saying this horse does not have pathology. I am not saying this horse is comfortable. I am not even saying he is safe (I’m not saying he’s unsafe either - I really have no way to comment on that). What I am saying is that I believe his explosiveness is, at least in part, driven by circumstance.

@Amos

She saw dangerous behavior, him almost unseating her professional rider (which wan’t shown on video), and allowed them to keep riding him, then sold him. Yet again I will propose the question no one wants to answer…Would it have been ok for me to resell him after seeing the behavior I saw, to my knowledge at the time it was a training issue?

I was going to respond to this, but no need as I agree completely with Boston HJ’s response (bolding my own because that is extra important):

@BostonHJ

I promise her rider sits on plenty of horses who try to unseat her. 'Tis the nature of working with fit young horses and isn’t a red flag in and of itself.

Yes, it would have been ok for you to sell him if you believed it was a training issue and you disclosed it. People find themselves and even their trainers overhorsed all the time.

@Amos

Adults get on the phone and talk to people, they don’t reply “Text me anytime!” after being asked politely multiple times to return a phone call. That was essentially flipping me the bird. Smells bad.

For all the reasons outlined in their post and more, FitzE is absolutely correct about this (as is @fivestrideline):

@FitzE

Someone esp in a professional setting preferring text over a call is not ‘flipping the bird’ nor does it ‘smell bad’. It is a professional preference for some and for very good reasons. If you like the talking, phone call, face-to-face chat type seller, that’s fine. But someone preferring written comms is in no way indicative of their being shady or flipping the bird. That projection is unfair and unkind and the implication is likely untrue.

In my line of work, if it’s not in writing it may as well be fairytales. I still talk on the phone these days, but only to chat. The important stuff is all in writing, and that is all the more critical when strong feeling is involved from one or more parties.

@Sticky_Situation

Why is it that the things you did wrong are mistakes, but the things the seller did wrong are malice/lack of ethics or integrity?

What’s the saying… don’t attribute to malice that which can equally be explained by ignorance?

Both of you thought the horse was sound and just quirky. You saw videos of how he went when the seller had him, and chose to buy him. She did not coerce you into buying him against your will.

Saying “buyer beware, I bought this horse from Benchmark and he became very explosive after I brought him home and ended up having bad kissing spine” is totally reasonable. The trashing of her character because she seemingly made the same mistake as you and got mesmerized by a tall, pretty horse with a nice neck and lots of toe flicking action? Not nearly as productive.

You ended up in an unfortunate situation and that sucks, but that doesn’t mean the seller is any more lacking in ethics than you are.

Great post, Sticky.

[Platoon]

I’m sorry for being a new poster and belaboring this point, but why did Amos’ trainer need to demonstrate the behavior? I feel sad for the horse because I would never create an explosive situation at the expense of the horse to make an owner happy

[Marigold]

@Platoon

why did Amos’ trainer need to demonstrate the behavior?

My only information on this is per Amos, when she posted the video:

@Amos

For reference, this video was taken after my trainer was injured and for the sole purpose of showing me how bad the pain display was, basically like, hey this is why I won’t get back on your horse and we are waiting on the vet. She really wanted me to SEE it. This was not an attempt at training it out of him or trying to work through it.

[Jealoushe]

It wasn’t about soundness though it was about how we aren’t capable enough riders to get them to go the way they need to to succeed. Us ammies ruining her sales because we can’t ride good enough lol

editing to add more: she didn’t say TBs weren’t suitable for ammies, she was saying ammies are basically a problem in her sales program because ammies can’t ride the horses she sells properly so they aren’t a good market for her to make money from. She also said something about our lack of skill is ruining eventing and horse sport in general.

[Platoon]

That’s why I said ammy doesn’t equal incompetence. However Amos proved her point?

[fivestrideline]

@Marigold thank you for the thoughtful, educational, and detailed post. I wish I could like it 10 times

[Platoon]

And my point is, what is Amos like in person? Because I would never ever do that to a horse in pain. If you don’t believe me the door is open.

I would never create a situation and bottle a horse up like that for the owner. It’s not right. It’s why I side eye the professional. I’m not and never will be the one to purposely create pain so an owner believes me. And quite frankly I don’t want to do business with an owner who expects that.

There are red flags here but I don’t think @Amos realizes the biggest one is them.

[KellyS]

@fivestrideline

I work for a multi-billion dollar defense corporation.

My point stands.

Same, not in the defense sector, but for a global corporation.

Absolutely agree with what you and @FitzE have said about the importance of written communication in business and that it is best practice for situations in which any communication could be misrepresented or misconstrued.

[KellyS]

@FitzE

No winners here but I think no villains either.

Perfectly said. Thank you!

[blue_heron]

The CotH community does not represent the majority of amateurs. The average amateur has an understanding of connection congruent with first level dressage at best, probably more like training level. I actually have to agree with Jessica that MOST amateurs are not suited for sensitive horses, which could be TB.

[KellyS]

@beowulf

Just for comparison, this is what long lining (double lunging) can look like when the proper foundation is in place and the horse is not in pain. There are always moments that aren’t so pretty (there always are!), but the pony below had had 7 weeks off in December/January after I had surgery and this was the first day back. (Ideally we would be in an enclosed area; for reference, the snow was fluffy, not slick, and pony is barefoot.)

The outside line “bouncing” across the hocks as the horse moves is what creates the weight in the outside rein (rather than actively pulling on it). Soft contact should be maintained with the inside rein to control the size of the circle. If someone does it differently, please share your perspective.

[awaywego]

Several hundred posts ago in this thread I commented on my distaste for the general derision towards amateurs. Adult amateurs come with a whole range of experiences, and the same is true of professionals.

The professional lunging the horse seems to have made my point for me.

[Platoon]

At the end of the day the horse sucks back and doesn’t understand long lining.

I’m not sure why this is confusing to people. I don’t mean you @KellyS. The horse was put into a horrible spot to prove something to the owner. Why? I’m sorry but if a rider or me as the rider tells a horse owner no I won’t get on because xyz, I don’t need proof and they have never needed proof.

Why did Amos need proof? Never mind she’s happy with the proof despite the wtf.

ETA: I don’t think Amos is a client that is easy to please. I could be wrong but that is my impression based on the fact the trainer purposefully put the horse in pain.

[kt-rose]

Lovely pony! This is how Paul Maye taught me to long line years ago. Very correct and a useful comparison for Amos as she evaluates where her horse might do best. Also very reminiscent of the warmup I provided for my KS mare – a nice stretch before getting on and followed by a considerate warmup under saddle and she could do quite a bit happily. In fact, this kind of work will actively improve many KS horses as it stretches and correctly muscles the back.