Benchmark Sporthorses?

[beowulf]

@enjoytheride

I think KS on an X ray is similar to any PPE result. Some horses have bad X rays and never take a lame step, some are already lame, some are quickly lame. It’s up to the buyer to look at the PPE and make an assessment. If a seller doesn’t think it’s a big deal but finds that they get stuck with horses with those types of X rays, then they won’t take those horses in the future.

I mean really, how can any seller that turns over horses as fast as Jess make an assessment about the horse’s long term soundness as it progresses in training? I also think that KS is something that we’ve just started PPEing for and there’s some variation in belief in what the X rays mean for a horse’s long term soundness. Over time that might change.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you. My thinking has shifted as I’ve seen more KS cases. I’ve realized those I wrote off as asymptomatic were symptomatic, I was just looking for the wrong symptoms. They didn’t bolt or buck or misbehave - symptoms most people associate with symptomatic KS. There are other symptoms that are not necessarily behavioral, like discomfort being mounted, girthiness, prolonged ulcers, toe dragging, hock and/or SI issues, etc. The list is long.

I would stress that it’s important to get the right angles on rads… Use a trusted source to do additional diagnostic imaging if you[g] are looking at a horse with KS findings on PPE.

My comment above (and this one) was not directed at Benchmark Sport Horses - just more of a general observation. If anyone wants a glimpse into what owning a KS horse is like (and whether there are truly any asymptomatic KS horses), there is a large group on FB called “Horses With Kissing Spine” and the posts are sobering.

[FrittSkritt]

@beowulf - has anyone on there had success with the method that the vet at R&R uses? (Numbing the back and long lining to help build strength, in a nutshell.)

[beowulf]

@FrittSkritt

@beowulf - has anyone on there had success with the method that the vet at R&R uses? (Numbing the back and long lining to help build strength, in a nutshell.)

This is a direct link to the FB group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/101279456709105

There are a few posts of people who have taken their horses there for the (IIRC) sarapin treatment, which is a series of injections along the back similar but not identical to mesotherapy.

My takeaway is that by the time there are clinical symptoms the disease is so ‘systemic’ that it’s really more of a ‘how can we manage this’ versus ‘how can we cure it’, because it starts affecting other parts of the body too. Bilateral suspensory desmitis and proximal suspensory disease[s] are common secondary injuries with KS.

Honestly, I’ve seen very few horses in that group I’d say were genuinely comfortable in their bodies, including the success stories, and including my own KS case. It has challenged my whole line of thinking with ethics versus use in the modern sport horse.

[frugalannie]

Beowulf, the consideration of ethics in sport horse use probably needs a topic to itself. I, for one, would be interested in reading your take on it.

[Xctrygirl]

I know living with my first ‘affected/symptomatic’ KS horse, who I have only had 5 rides on (And 2 falls)
has also been sobering.

He’s a loving guy but I watch him move in the field and between his existing foot issue and what we know from his rads… he doesn’t move like he should. He’s happy and only a pasture puff, but when I start thinking about the vet work, meds etc that it would take to get him 100% comfy, and know that he cannot lunge (due to other issues in bone and soft tissue of his front legs, also a post purchase discovery) I am sad for what I just cannot afford to provide. But we do what we can and will until his body says it’s time to stop.

I don’t want to be the person who would rule out a horse on KS indicating films alone, but I would certainly do a lot more reconnaissance than I did. For sure I would watch the horse work and be ridden a ton more before doing a ppe and probably after as well.

Em

[vxf111]

I have a KS horse and I am in that FB group.

I tend to agree with you that there aren’t really “asymptomatic” horses, just horses stoic enough or being put to a specific enough use or managed in such a way that the KS doesn’t completely interfere. But that’s not the same as asymptomatic.

The one exception to the “can’t cure it” is for a mild case where the ligament snipping surgery is successful. Which, admittedly, is a narrow subset of the total number of cases. And the surgery isn’t always successful. But in a mild enough case where the surgery works, you can have the result of a horse whose processes no longer touch and has no issues. I am very very lucky to have one such horse who is now many years post surgery and is actually better and sounder than he ever was before. He is doing less because I am a wimp and he’s not a spring chicken anymore, but his x-rays no longer show KS and he is very very sound.

[alyssaequestrian]

This method is such a BAD take in the sense that it is unknown what is truly injected, it is really dangerous to basically give the horses a epidural, and know MANY of horses that have had HUGE issues from this. How that vet still has a license is beyond me.

[Pico_Banana]

@alyssaequestrian

This method is such a BAD take in the sense that it is unknown what is truly injected, it is really dangerous to basically give the horses a epidural, and know MANY of horses that have had HUGE issues from this. How that vet still has a license is beyond me.

Exactly. Someone recommended this vet to me. I asked what was in the back injections (especially important to me as my horse cannot have steroids) and he flat out refused to tell me. Hard no.

[alyssaequestrian]

Yes, I think the idea is not necessarily a bad one (eliminate pain to allow to build up topline) but the method of going about it with a long lasting epidural of unknown substances with unknown consequences? No thanks.

[knic]

Who is the vet?

[FrittSkritt]

This OTTB Went From Kissing Spines Diagnosis To Makeover With Physical...

[Lunabear1988]

I know nothing of the vet, and I’m not condoning the procedure, but for what it’s worth, the horse appears to still be competing and they went to the AECs this year.

Regardless of the vet, I am glad to hear he’s still doing good and hope he continues to do so. (I have a horse with kissing spine so I want to have some hope and inspiration.)

[Pico_Banana]

In the interest of sharing information to those interested, I also saw this vet perform the injection procedure on a couple of horses. It is multiple small injections along the spine. He used the same needle for all of the injections. I’m not a vet, but I always thought to reduce risk of infection, you were supposed to use a new needle for every injection site.

I’m glad it is helping some horses, but I remain leery of this vet.

[grzywinskia]

I haven’t read all these responses but I for one am so glad that this particular owner thought outside the box to do what was best for her individual horse. It seems to have worked, and what a happy productive career this horse looks to have after what was a potential disaster.

I know the vet who performed the procedure, I have heard mixed reviews, but again in this case KUDOS to him for helping this caring owner through this struggle.

For those talking about using new needles for this procedure, much like miso, they use a 4 or 5 pronged needle set on a scrubbed area of the back subcutaneously. It is not going into a joint space and along with the “numbing” or pain relief aspect they are looking for a response from the body that sends blood flow to the area.

[beowulf]

A few years ago Fullback (foaled 2012) was the poster child for a horse that had a comeback after KS procedure. It was widely shared all over social media. He is – and was – a sensational horse, and it made a good story.

Now he is retired. While his retirement was not directly related to the KS as we know it, one thing his owner reflects on publicly is that he was always difficult to keep sound in work. I often wonder with KS horses - is it chicken or egg?

What is more meaningful to me when reading about a KS diagnosis and a horse conquering the score card, isn’t their score or their year end awards. Its where they are 5 years from diagnosis.

[Xctrygirl]

I don’t know if I could find the thread, but the Dr. in that article that @FrittSkritt posted was behind another controversial rehab procedure a few years ago.

I barely recall the details, the bottom line was he was having people jump larger verticals in tight draw reins to rehab an issue.

It wasn’t pretty the first time around.

Em

[Jersey_Fresh]

He has also been very close to getting DR for beating the snot out of a horse in the dressage arena, being asked to leave for it and then screaming at the officials…I wish they had given him the DR but he walked away with an E. The saddest part these are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to “controversial” with him yet people think he walks on water.

[AmmyHunter]

@Pico_Banana

In the interest of sharing information to those interested, I also saw this vet perform the injection procedure on a couple of horses. It is multiple small injections along the spine. He used the same needle for all of the injections. I’m not a vet, but I always thought to reduce risk of infection, you were supposed to use a new needle for every injection site.

I’m glad it is helping some horses, but I remain leery of this vet.

I knew which vet it was based on these comments before I even opened the article. While there are certainly plenty of people who swear by him, my personal experience validates your gut feeling to remain leery. He at times fixates on the back to the exclusion of other, obvious injuries, for which any back soreness would obviously be secondary. As an experienced trainer once said to me “I feel like I have to remind him that horses have legs!”

[knic]

I’ve experienced this with a couple vets. My horse turns into a ball of anger with a sore back any time something is off because he compensates so much. Getting vets to ignore the back palpation to rule out something lower limb first has been an ordeal.

[alyssaequestrian]

In his treatment, they are (or should be) going into the nerves, not just subcutaneously.