Best American Thoroughbred Stallion for Holsteiner mare

[ponygirl]

I’ve got to chime in here as I did what some obviously wouldn’t do. I did it deliberately. I put a BIG, well-bred Holsteiner mare to a Thoroughbred to produce an upper level jumper. The result is an improvement on the dam. She’s a better mover, typier, better conformed, prettier with a fabulous brain and work ethic. With respect to size, she is smaller in height and mass than her mother, which is consistent with the numerous Coconut Grove offspring I’ve seen. I’m sure there are exception, but it is worth pointing out that size conclusions with the Coco’s should not be quickly reached based on their initial foal growth. The ones I’ve known have put on a lot of height in the first year and then slowed down considerably.

My mare is currently with my trainer who was an International Grand Prix rider and Nations Cup team member for many years. He has ridden some of the greats including Ramiro as he rode for Fritz Ligges during his career. He has compared her to one of his best Grand Prix horses. There has been no loss of scope with this cross, rather, I now have scope in an extremely athletic and adjustable package that most definitely will be extremely competitive on today’s more technically demanding courses.

Since I touched on scope, the mares by Coconut Grove that have done the jump chute during AHHA inspections have gotten stellar scores of 8s and 9s. I know Bent Hickory (wish he’d chime in) has a mare by him that was accepted in the Hanoverian JBP with extremely high conformation, movement and jumper scores. She too is an improvement on the dam including scope. In the less than 10 years that Coco has been available, he has been the choice for top breeders, top GP mares and top GP riders. His offspring have been exported to other countries and I know of one semen broker in Scotland that likes them so much he’s breeding his own mares to him for upper level jumpers.

I think there have been some good TBs named here as that was the request of the OP. I don’t think that putting a TB like Coconut Grove to a mare such as the OPs is the kiss of death for an upper level jumper. It’s not unheard of. Coco was never bred till late in life and he’s an grand old man now. Time will tell.

[GoingUp_POP]

A Fine Romance is always a solid choice, and there is one stallion in Oklahoma I’m fond of, his name is Double The Sauce, owner is great, stallion is a sweetheart, he has an ad somewhere online…

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5958581]
Coconut Grove is the only one approved, and he can make very big. [/QUOTE]

In my experience, CG does not “make very big.” In fact, of the dozen or so offspring I’ve laid hands on, NONE have been bigger than the mother. Of my personal offspring, two will not finish over 16h. He may not always provide the desired level of refinement on a heavy, coarse mare, but I surely would not expect him to “make big.”

@RyTimMick;5958581

Furthermore if you are breeding for upper level jumpers, breeding to a TB is going the wrong way.

Again, I cannot agree with Tim on this topic and other similar blanket statements he is wont to make. All of the CG’s I’ve handled through the jump chute have demonstrated better technique than their mothers, with more athleticism and cleverness. There are several CG’s in the hands of professsionals and time will tell which of us is correct.

I absolutely would not hesitate to use CG on a successful jumping mare that needs better technique, adjustability, sensitivity and all around “cattiness.”

[vineyridge]

Another one to look into if his semen can be imported is Roven who stands with VDL in Holland. He has the highest breeding value for jumping of any TB stallion they have ever licensed.

The great thing about Coconut Grove is that he did it himself; he’s show jumped at a very high level, and he’s American. That means you can talk to people who have his foals and see what he produces. Tom Reed thinks that is a huge plus.

Roven was also a GP jumper here before he was exported.

[RyTimMick]

@Bent Hickory;5959058

In my experience, CG does not “make very big.” In fact, of the dozen or so offspring I’ve laid hands on, NONE have been bigger than the mother. Of my personal offspring, two will not finish over 16h. He may not always provide the desired level of refinement on a heavy, coarse mare, but I surely would not expect him to “make big.”

Again, I cannot agree with Tim on this topic and other similar blanket statements he is wont to make. All of the CG’s I’ve handled through the jump chute have demonstrated better technique than their mothers, with more athleticism and cleverness. There are several CG’s in the hands of professsionals and time will tell which of us is correct.

I absolutely would not hesitate to use CG on a successful jumping mare that needs better technique, adjustability, sensitivity and all around “cattiness.”

I said big, I did not say tall. He didn’t refine any of the mares that I saw he was bred too. If you want taller and blood, breed to Salute the Truth.

When I say upper level jumper, I am speaking of 1.6m classes and up. Coco may improve some aspects of the jump such as quickness of the front end, but he will not add scope. Last I checked of the nearly 4000 sport horses ranked world wide, not 1 horse was sired or broodmare sired by Coconut Grove. How many ranked performers are by TB’s stallions? The fact is, the TB’s are best used in the creation of breeding horses and Eventers. If you need blood, you don’t need a TB, there are plenty of stallions that breed with blood that will not take away from the type. I can think of a couple fresh stallions that will do that better then a TB stallion. So I ask again, why are you searching out a TB stallion?

Tim

[ponygirl]

@RyTimMick;5959309

I said big, I did not say tall. He didn’t refine any of the mares that I saw he was bred too. If you want taller and blood, breed to Salute the Truth.

When I say upper level jumper, I am speaking of 1.6m classes and up. Coco may improve some aspects of the jump such as quickness of the front end, but he will not add scope. Last I checked of the nearly 4000 sport horses ranked world wide, not 1 horse was sired or broodmare sired by Coconut Grove. How many ranked performers are by TB’s stallions? The fact is, the TB’s are best used in the creation of breeding horses and Eventers. If you need blood, you don’t need a TB, there are plenty of stallions that breed with blood that will not take away from the type. I can think of a couple fresh stallions that will do that better then a TB stallion. So I ask again, why are you searching out a TB stallion?

Tim

He’s refined every single offspring I’ve seen. I’ve seen well over a dozen.

Bent Hickory’s Coco mare has more scope than her dam. I don’t understand why this is hard to accept.

The OP asked for TBs and has been given a nice list of them.

[TrueColours]

CHeck and see if there is any frozen available for Yavari. he jumped at the GP level very successfully

Guaranteed Gold also has some jumper offspring starting their show careers out of non TB mares. They’d be in their 1st and 2nd years of showing, so very much at the beginning of their careers but are doing very well

Good luck!

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5959309]
I said big, I did not say tall. He didn’t refine any of the mares that I saw he was bred too. [/QUOTE]

The mother made them “big” not CG – CG is not going to make a coarse mare MORE coarse. And many, many of the mares that he covered initially were COARSE – no stallion can work miracles. Saying that he didn’t refine as much as desired in all cases is not the same as saying he makes them big.

@RyTimMick;5959309

Last I checked of the nearly 4000 sport horses ranked world wide, not 1 horse was sired or broodmare sired by Coconut Grove.

Really, Tim? REALLY? Are you SERIOUSLY going to rely on that statement? Maybe you should rethink it and consider whether it’s really applicable …

[vineyridge]

Um, Tim. What is UP from 1.60 meter jumping? How many of the current leading FEI jumpers do puissance enough for it to matter?

[enavantstud]

Another vote for Innkeeper as I used to own him (he’s now at Virginia Tech). I have his 17.1h licenced son Innverness who received 8.5s at his stallion testing and has amazing scope. Also all his offspring are very smart!

[baywithchrome2]

@RyTimMick;5959309

I said big, I did not say tall. He didn’t refine any of the mares that I saw he was bred too.

Well, if putting Coco to a Holsteiner mare is a sin, I’ve committed grave sins for breeding not one, but two Thoroughbred mares to him. :lol: Tim, please hear this… even on a Thoroughbred mare, Coconut Grove refined both mares, and in both cases, improved on what were already high quality TB mares (based on European judges comments, not my own personal opinion).

And I know Ponygirl’s Coconut Grove as I owned her dam, raised the filly for the first year and have followed her development through Jen and through the mare’s trainer. Coco refined the dam significantly and improved her in every way. It’s a cross I would have done over and over and over again without a second thought. And after watching her jump, that would have been the right thing to do (her dam passed away hence no full siblings).

[baywithchrome2]

Here is a pic of Chagall, a Coconut Grove son out of a Cassini I-Lancer I mare.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/baywithchrome/6347180125/

And a recent video link (albeit poor) of the same youngster as a 5 year old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUti98Mxh_w

The proof is in the pudding

[EquineLVR]

Isnt putting a TB stallion on top over a holsteiner mare exactly what Holstein has done and been wildly successful? Isnt that what all the Holsteiner peeps tout is that you put the blood on top and NOT on the bottom?

Alll of the TB’s below were put on top of the holsteiner mares and it seemed to work out pretty good…

Ladykiller
Cottage Son
Rantzau
Furioso
Marlon
Anblick
Rittersporn
Sacramento Song
Vollkorn
Heraldik
Mytens
Lucky Boy

This list goes on and on…

So why wouldnt you do that here?

I also agree Roven would be a great match if you can do frozen.

[baywithchrome2]

Roven is a lovely stallion, but I’ve never heard anything good about his frozen semen.

[Dressagelvr]

I genuinely cannot believe that someone here is slamming Coconut Grove.

Coco is also approved Hanoverian. They are notorious for their stringent standards, and I would say are the toughest U.S. based European registry for both mare and stallion approvals.

They are also known for being especially tough on “non-warmbloods”.

The fact that he’s in the Hanoverian book speaks volumes about his quality…far more so than a few baseless keystrokes on a keyboard.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5959309]
When I say upper level jumper, I am speaking of 1.6m classes and up. Coco may improve some aspects of the jump such as quickness of the front end, but he will not add scope. Last I checked of the nearly 4000 sport horses ranked world wide, not 1 horse was sired or broodmare sired by Coconut Grove.
Tim[/QUOTE]

Didn’t CG’s first offspring land on the ground in 2004?

[ne1]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;5960043]
I genuinely cannot believe that someone here is slamming Coconut Grove.

Coco is also approved Hanoverian. They are notorious for their stringent standards, and I would say are the toughest U.S. based European registry for both mare and stallion approvals.

They are also known for being especially tough on “non-warmbloods”.

The fact that he’s in the Hanoverian book speaks volumes about his quality…far more so than a few baseless keystrokes on a keyboard.[/QUOTE]

i’ve seen a number of cg’s. with all respect to the multiple european books which have approved him - and with understanding that wendy is fixing, to her great credit, to ship his semen back to europe - i do understand why the holsteiner verband declined to approve him, and he would not be one i would use.

i think someone said it right earlier… this is nothing more than a social medium, and has relatively little bearing on the real world. it is borderline impossible to speak generally as the audience comes from such disparate backgrounds, have such varying degrees of understanding, and such different horses.

there are probably many mares on whom cg would do a good job, just not mine.

every studbook’s vision is unique. every breeder’s vision within each studbook is similarly unique. you go to two different farms in holstein and you will see two distinct microcosms of the holsteiner breed, each persuant to their breeders vision. a horse i might like, you may not, and vice versa. the breeding production and bonits, and ultimately the sport arena are where the pudding is proven. the rest of it on here is nothing more than a bunch of hot air, both for and against.

[omare]

I thought the Holsteiner Verband would need to see him in person on German soil to accept or decline him? (Are they accepting stallions without in person presentation now?) That sure would allow the book to open up a little if they did although I realize they have now approved some deceased ones (Darco?!) and I guess that was not channeled through a meduim

[ponygirl]

@omare;5960221

I thought the Holsteiner Verband would need to see him in person on German soil to accept or decline him? (Are they accepting stallions without in person presentation now?) That sure would allow the book to open up a little if they did although I realize they have now approved some deceased ones (Darco?!) and I guess that was not channeled through a meduim

They would and Tamara was not willing to do that.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=ponygirl;5960253]
They would and Tamara was not willing to do that.[/QUOTE]

a rep from the Holsteiner Verband has seen him here and didn’t seem to think he would work on the mare base in Holstein.