Best American Thoroughbred Stallion for Holsteiner mare

[Dressagelvr]

there are probably many mares on whom cg would do a good job, just not mine.

Let me be clear: there’s no such thing as a stallion who works for every mare.

I have no idea whether CG is right for the OPs mare. I do, however, think he is worth considering with the other top TB sporthorse stallions (AFR, Sea Accounts, Innkeeper, etc.).

But, there was another poster (Tim?), who was implying that CG was of no value as a stallion to any WB mare. That is the point that my post was meant to address.

a rep from the Holsteiner Verband has seen him here and didn’t seem to think he would work on the mare base in Holstein.

Did you speak directly to the rep from the Verband or is this simply hearsay?

[LPiper]

[QUOTE=baywithchrome2;5959941]
Here is a pic of Chagall, a Coconut Grove son out of a Cassini I-Lancer I mare.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/baywithchrome/6347180125/

And a recent video link (albeit poor) of the same youngster as a 5 year old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUti98Mxh_w

The proof is in the pudding ;)[/QUOTE]

This is my horse (and my poor video…taken on my phone!) I purchased Chagall in the spring from flightwithoutwings farm. I bought him off the videos she sent me. I knew I could do something with him from what I saw, and have harboured a crush on his pedigree for some time.

Chagall is Coconut Grove/Cassini I/Lancer I/Lord. I think due to his double ladykiller on the bottom, the TB really shines through. The mare was also quite modern. That video was taken the day he arrived, 2 hrs off the trailer. He was skinny and stressed from the trailer ride. I will try to post more recent video on here in the next couple days.

Chagall has his strengths and weaknesses like any horse. The things that are most impressive -and garner compliments from recognized coaches and complete strangers - are his scope and his honesty. He is well put together with a nice hind end connection and a super stifle placement. His neck is set a bit low out of the base of his neck, but not drastically and he still carries it well. He has average gaits but a spectacular jump - fancy infront and finishes well behind. He is tremendously careful, which leads to overjumping to the point of not being functional. Hopefully that will improve with miles.

I have not seen enough different CG’s to know if these charactersitics are typical. I do know there are many videos of Branscomb Farm’s CG on their website. He is a 7 yr old competing in the 1.30m. He has a good canter, scope and willingness. Both their’s and mine are modern and refined. Mine is very refined.

PM if you want more info. I’d be happy to chat.
L

[octoberhill]

Two sides to the story…

I will keep this response short and to the point, as I am very busy volunteering most of my time to the AHHA right now…

Last year when the Verband judge visited October Hill during the tour, he remarked that if the stallion had been younger at the time that he was retired for breeding, and if the buyer, Tamara, had been willing to sell him, that Coconut Grove could possibly be standing in Holstein today. So apparently, there was a serious conversation at the Verband about the merits of this stallion for the mare base there.

Tamara had several offers from Europe, and I cannot verify that one came from Holstein, but there were others.

And to set the record completely straight, I am not “fixing” to send semen to Europe. It has been there for many years thanks to Tamara’s efforts, and has been used in several areas, including Holstein.

Now, if the Verband judge was just trying to make me blush, then color me pink. But I would rather interpret his comments as professional courtesy and a relating of facts as they occurred.

Think about this…if Coconut Grove was 14 again, and Tamara wasn’t in the picture, would Coconut Grove be here for you today…

I say, Thank You, Tamara…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=octoberhill;5960583]
I will keep this response short and to the point, as I am very busy volunteering most of my time to the AHHA right now…

Last year when the Verband judge visited October Hill during the tour, he remarked that if the stallion had been younger at the time that he was retired for breeding, and if the buyer, Tamara, had been willing to sell him, that Coconut Grove could possibly be standing in Holstein today. So apparently, there was a serious conversation at the Verband about the merits of this stallion for the mare base there.

Tamara had several offers from Europe, and I cannot verify that one came from Holstein, but there were others.

And to set the record completely straight, I am not “fixing” to send semen to Europe. It has been there for many years thanks to Tamara’s efforts, and has been used in several areas, including Holstein.

Now, if the Verband judge was just trying to make me blush, then color me pink. But I would rather interpret his comments as professional courtesy and a relating of facts as they occurred.

Think about this…if Coconut Grove was 14 again, and Tamara wasn’t in the picture, would Coconut Grove be here for you today…

I say, Thank You, Tamara…[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t referring to a visit last year. I was referring to what I was told several years ago. The Verband official at the time didn’t think he would work on the Holstein mare base just as many, many other TB stallions haven’t as well.

As far as his semen being used in Holstein…has it been used on mares other than your own ?

[ne1]

wendy, i had been told more semen was headed to europe. i’m glad you took the trouble to clarify that is not the case. either way, it is certainly rare that any stallion state-side ships semen to, or has his semen used by breeders in europe!

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=octoberhill;5960583]
Think about this…if Coconut Grove was 14 again, and Tamara wasn’t in the picture, would Coconut Grove be here for you today…

I say, Thank You, Tamara…[/QUOTE]

And not just for keeping him here, but believing in the stallion enough to jump through all the registry hoops (at great expense and risk) so that he would be available to warmblood breeders in this country!

[rodawn]

Is the Coconut Grove being discussed on this thread the same one as was highlighted in the American Holsteiner Horse Association article in 2003?

Scroll to Page 8

http://www.holsteiner.com/ImpulsionIssues/2003SummerIssue.pdf

FWIW: I rode a young Hanoverian stallion who was sired by an American jumping TB stallion who was on the US Olympic Team. This was in the 80s and I cannot, for the life of me, remember the sire’s name, although I know it started with a W, because the stallion I rode was called Whispering Hope. That stallion had ENORMOUS scope and abilities - owner and I watched him, dumbfounded, as he backed up literally only 15 feet from the fence, stepped forward and cleared his 6.5 foot fence topped by voltage electric line. Easily. Why? So he could visit the girls in up yonder field - galloped across the middle ground field, and popped over the mares’ 5 foot enclosure, where all kinds of H$<< promptly broke loose. For the better part of the next week, the farm hands, owner and myself were busy ripping down Whisper’s enclosure and reconstructing a solid 8 foot enclosure. He gamely tried that fence too, but couldn’t clear it. I schooled that horse with one of Canada’s Olympic Jumping team members, before the owners sold him out of country - they said he went to Europe - and I lost track of him, I think he was gelded if memory serves. He was out of an imported state premium mare purchased from Celle, a dressage bred mare who could jump rather rightly herself. I currently own a half-sister to Whisper and the last foal the mare ever had, who was sired by one of Spruce Meadows’ stallions - a grand prix jumper who was sired by the TB stallion, Good Match xx who was owned by Celle. Granada also had a history of clearing 5+ foot paddock fences when the whimzies hit her, the very thing that actually ended her career before it even got started since she got injured on a neighbor’s property after getting out (before I was privileged to own her). His other half-sister was sired by Dezember (no TB or much TB in him) and she competed to 3* eventing before her rider got into trouble with drugs.

So, while it may not be “common”, there is the odd TB out there, or TB cross that can do extremely well. But people should keep in mind it is rare and it has to be the right horse with the right mare. What my previous bosses always told me, before I got into breeding myself, is if you are influxing AA or TB in a program, you are looking forward to generation 2 or 3 for the true results.

[fordtraktor]

Gemini (ducks for cover)

[ponygirl]

@rodawn;5960663

Is the Coconut Grove being discussed on this thread the same one as was highlighted in the American Holsteiner Horse Association article in 2003?

Scroll to Page 8

http://www.holsteiner.com/ImpulsionIssues/2003SummerIssue.pdf

Yes.

[ponygirl]

@Bent Hickory;5960659

And not just for keeping him here, but believing in the stallion enough to jump through all the registry hoops (at great expense and risk) so that he would be available to warmblood breeders in this country!

Exactly

[Elles]

Am I missing something? The Americans have so many thoroughbreds and still there hardly seems to be a really good one for breeding an outstanding sport horse crossed with a Holstein mare?!

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=Elles;5960720]
Am I missing something? The Americans have so many thoroughbreds and still there hardly seems to be a really good one for breeding an outstanding sport horse crossed with a Holstein mare?![/QUOTE]

Most thoroughbreds in America and Canada are bred strictly for racing which requires quite different conformation. There are very few thoroughbred breeders who aim for the sporthorse type.

[vineyridge]

Elles, you have to understand COTH and America.

Here TBs are common as dirt and treated as such by many breeders and buyers. There are very, very few sport proved TB sires. So many people think that WBs are sport royalty, and TBs are fieldhands. They are, in many people’s mind, inherently inferior with the wrong conformation, the wrong minds, and the wrong athletic ability.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Elles;5960720]
Am I missing something? The Americans have so many thoroughbreds and still there hardly seems to be a really good one for breeding an outstanding sport horse crossed with a Holstein mare?![/QUOTE]

Elles , Coconut Grove xx is making some really nice sporthorse types here. I think he’s probably one of the best TB stallions here.

He’s no different than any other stallion with the respect of selecting the right mares for him.

I was just commenting on what I was told regarding the mare base in Holstein. They weren’t convinced at the time that he would be “right” for them.

I am a fan of Coconut Grove xx…I have seen some interesting children of his.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Elles;5960720]
Am I missing something? The Americans have so many thoroughbreds and still there hardly seems to be a really good one for breeding an outstanding sport horse crossed with a Holstein mare?![/QUOTE]

Elles there are very good sport horses even from racing stock, but almost 100% of the time the males are gelded before their sport talent can be fully discovered.

[RyTimMick]

Since things can easily be misunderstood on this forum, I would like to Clarify. I maybe shoud have done this in the first place. I like Coconut Grove XX. I have seen many of his offspring, and they were all athletic. The mares of these offspring were also. I follow what is done in Holstein, because they are best in my opinion. They do not breed to TB stallions to increase scope, or movement, or type. They breed to them for refinement, quickness, sensitivity, legs, and overall bloodedness. And they do it to produce breeding stock not sport horses. Its not to say that a good sport horse might not come out of it, but that isn’t why they do it. They then take these well typed, athletic, refined, beautiful dams and breed with them. Some of the best breeding Holsteiners are half breds. Some times that is a Stallion.

So, I was not trying to make this about Coconut Grove xx, or TB over anything else. I asked why the ower of this Holsteiner mare was wanting to breed to a TB stallion, when this is not done frequently in Holstein. Almost everyone jumped in here without any knowledge of this mare, what her type is, what she needs, or how she breeds, yet a slew of TB names were thrown at her. I wanted to know why she wanted a TB stallion, because I wanted to know what she was aiming for. Again, as someone already stated, these halfbreds are traditionally bred for breeding stock in the future. If this wasn’t her goal, maybe a TB isn’t her best choice. I don’t know. I would suspect neither does anyone else. Either which way I still feel it was right to ask why to help improve the dialog, and until I feel like most people understand the difference between refinement and modern I will continue to ask why…

Tim

[NOMIOMI1]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5960764]
Elles, you have to understand COTH and America.

Here TBs are common as dirt and treated as such by many breeders and buyers. There are very, very few sport proved TB sires. So many people think that WBs are sport royalty, and TBs are fieldhands. They are, in many people’s mind, inherently inferior with the wrong conformation, the wrong minds, and the wrong athletic ability.[/QUOTE]

Many poorly bred TB’s bred in peoples backyards that want to “race” are common as dirt…

These guys are a different story!

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=6173372

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=1396750&origin=link

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=4297000&origin=link

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=4300692&origin=link (fantastic!)

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=4336121&origin=link ( lovely!)

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=6801271&origin=link (gorgeous!)

And I can find about 100 more However, we are not breeding sport horses at 100k stud fees

The TB and the tb are two different things here… Some of the racing sires have excellent conformation but not everyone is breeding to the top of the chain and it rolls downhill.

I have a TB right now and if I had the money I’d breed her to a racing sire, NO not to race, but because I’d have one killer TB! But alas no 75k check laying around so I’d do a Warmblood cross anyday

[grayarabpony]

There are high quality sports horses to be had both from small and large TB breeders. A high stud fee or yearling auction price does not matter if the horse doesn’t win at the track.

[NOMIOMI1]

Ive seen this TB stallion in person and he is HUGE with tons of bone and just well HUGE lol

http://www.nelsonfarmsinc.com/images/stallions/Ara_062607_2_600x.jpg

[selah]

Nice backpedaling guys!