I was wondering if one Arabian breed (Polish, Egyptian, Spanish, etc.) or type (Race, Halter, etc.) was better for producing dressage horses than another?
What type of Arabians can be found in the European breeding circles? And are there any farms in the US known for producing dressage horses here? (Or just exceptional quality Arabians?)
Thank you ahead of time!
FWIW: I was always told to look at Polish linesā¦Crabbet(sp) linesā¦
There are a few Arabians approved in the warmblood registries. I would start there though most will prove to be Crabbet/Polish lines there are a few Egyptians. The issue with the Egyptians is their size is just not that popular with the dressage groups and why all that snort and blow in a pony size when you can do better with a Welsh or sport pony. Iāve had most of my luck with the Khemosabi line specifically for Dressage as they really are striking in appearance and though halter bred are not as snort and blow as Padron. I will admit complete bias to the Khemo line as I am old enough to not only have seen him show but been beaten more than once by him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUJpbHaum-U&feature=related
Hereās a vid of a lovely stallion though I do not know enough to judge him.
Arabs in Dressage
I agree with the others, Polish and Crabbet lines are often nice sized and good movers with good bone. In many of the older Europeon warmblood horses there is often a dose of Polish and Russian Arabian blood, often through the use of Anglo-Arabians.
I would agree with starting with some of the approved lines by the warmblood associations and peruse the Sporthorse Nationals Payback program stallions, many of which are actively showing dressage.
I have tried desperately to find out the pedigree of my 3/4 Arab (Anglo) mare with no luck since she was born in 1976 and they have not inputted pedigrees from that era into their system yet. She was truly one of the best movers I have ever seen, and had nice substance with good bone and feet. I believe she was mostly Polish and most Arab people I have talked to like the Polish lines best for sporthorses.
Iāll second the vote for Khemosabi lines, older bask lines can be good as well, as the older ones tend to have more bone and substance. Both have some pretty solid work ethic and nice moves. Khemo more so the Bask ime.
Iām personally not super fond of Crabbets, I 've had a few - good horses but I find them to be a difficult ride at times.
Egyptians are talented, butā¦ as someone else said, they can be lighter butā¦ it depends on which strain as well - some are a fair amount larger than others. for example I have a 16.1hh nazeer grandson in training here atm.
Dont discount looking at a a reg 1/2 arab, - arabians cross wonderfully with a pretty broad spectrum of breeds plus you can still do breed classes to some extent.
My alltime favorite and very talented horse I ever owned was a reg 1/2 arab percheron gelding. I had the size and stride, and the arabian look, he was a khemosabi grandson. If I could have filled my entire barn with clones of him, I would have in a heartbeat!
Most tend to like the CMK lines or proven performance lines like Khemo. I personally love Bask-bred horses (Polish) and he is just as proven in performance as Khemo, but many of the Bask-bred horses DO tend to be hottish. However, they are hard workers (IME) and you want some āforwardā in a dressage horse. The fit with this type of horse would depend alot on your experience and ability.
And with the influx of the French lines (imported mostly for racing, but alot of them look just like TBs), there might be some talent there as well.
However I would not get hung up on bloodlines so much as just looking at the individualās conformation and gaits (plus disposition, of course). Just because they have Khen as a great-grandfather (or any other sire) wil not make them a good dressage horse.
Itās the individual that counts.
Looking at each horse as an individual will tell you far more about itās suitability for dressage then just a pedigree.
as a rule, NOT halter breds. Most have a weak back and flat croup. In general Polish breds are the most suited to sporthorses. By discipline, the endurance horses are bred to be ridden and hold up. By movementā¦Bey line horses. I did an extensive search for an Arab stallion for my petite/refined WB mare a few years back. My short list ended up with 1 Polish bred and 2 Bey line stallions.
I donāt know much about Arabs and have never been much of an Arab person.
But
check out Shark Sporthorses.
Quick Silver Bey is a real cutie w/a good bit of talent for dressage.
The other stallion on there is also nice looking.
If I ever were to look to an Arab stallion to put on a WB mare, it would probably be one of those 2.
Another vote for Khemosabi!!!
Khemosabi lines are sought after in Sport Horse breeding and itās pretty normal to see Khemo pop up where Arab is added to mostly Warmblood or TB breeding. Khemo lines are also known to bring some pretty wild color into the pot too! I have a 22 yr old Khemosabi Anglo-Arab son. Trained him though Prix. St. George, evented him, did western events and every thing else. Iād take another one in a heart beat! Khemosabis not only have the SUBSTINANCE but also the temperment to be competative sport horses. They are known for soundness, good bone and in my experience are a whole lot less āhotā than most fashionable modern Arabian lines 
Many families in the Arabian breed have been very successful in dressage. Crabbet, Polish, Russian, Egyptian, Spanish & Domestic bred Arabians have excelled in this sport to FEI levels. You need to look at each Arabian as an individual and go from there. My personal preference are the Polish & Crabbet bred horses and I have had good success with my Russian/Polish gelding. The current National Champion Arabian Grand Prix horse is Egyptian, KB Omega Fahim+++//, and he has produced FEI Level get. Taāez+, the 2008 NC Grand Prix Arabian, is mostly Crabbet.
My mare, Caraechstrodinair, is approved Hanoverian and was one of the high scoring mares in 2008 with a 7.33. Her bloodlines have produced National Champion Halter horses & National Champion English horses and she is very suited for dressage. Her sire, Echstrordinairy is sired by NC Stallion, Echo Magnifficoo and out of NC Mare, Bey Teyna (Bey Shah x TW Forteyna). Her dam, SA Portia is sired by the Russian import *Persten by Salon and out of MHR Elimara who is sired by the Polish import *Elimar and out of Raffonās full sister. As you can see, she is a blend of Polish, Spanish, Russian & Crabbet.
To the OP, are you looking for an Arabian dressage horse? Are you planning on breeding one? To answer your questions about the european breeding circles, the Polish program is very well respected, as is the Russian program. IS Orlow was approved Oldenburg & Hanoverian in Germany last year and is Polish. The Polish/Crabbet cross is also a very good one.
Hereās a link to some photos of Carli and her Hanoverian filly Excepchanel by Escudo II. http://photobucket.com/images/excepchanel/
IMO- look at what divisions that horse its parents and grandparents have shown and won in. If it is all halter steer clear. Many of the Arabs bred in Europe these days are halter horses. Look for horses who have won in Park/English Pleasure or Working Western events, those are your athletes, then look for an individual from those athletic lines that fits your conformation ideals for a dressahe horse.
[QUOTE=Renae;5498475]
IMO- look at what divisions that horse its parents and grandparents have shown and won in. If it is all halter steer clear. Many of the Arabs bred in Europe these days are halter horses. Look for horses who have won in Park/English Pleasure or Working Western events, those are your athletes, then look for an individual from those athletic lines that fits your conformation ideals for a dressahe horse.[/QUOTE]
Iām going to politely disagree with most of this. My mare was bred for the Halter arena and she is the highest scoring Arabian to be included in the Hanoverian Stud Book. And horses bred for the english and Park divisions are not always and many times not good for dressage. The english bred Arabians are notorious for dragging their hind ends and not having strong backs or good couplings. Each and every Arabian needs to be judged on their own, there are great dressage prospects in every family and every type. My friend had great success at the lower levels with her western bred Arabian, who was a direct son of Fame VF.
The best place to start looking for a dressage prospect are the breeders who are actually breeding for dressage, racing or endurance.
Crabbet and Polish for sure! I have been riding and showing Arabians for a while now, and they are definitely the more athletic of the bunch.
My mare is just a hair under 15.3 (which is very large for an Arabian) and quite stout. She is mistaken for a warmblood cross all the time when we go to shows.
Her bloodlines are quite old though(she is 20) and she is one of the last in her line. They donāt make them like her anymore!
My yearling is half-arabian, and I think the Arabian side is mostly Polish as well.
Here is a link so you can see them both.
The August/September issue of Modern Arabian Horse had an article of the top producing dressage sires from 1960 -2010. Unfortunately you cannot link to that article, but hereās the list:
And a 7-way tie for #25 between: Promotion, Barbary, El Kasaka, Oran Van Bandy, Muscat, Bey Oro, and Al-Marah Canadius.
Not a big surprise to see a lot of Polish, Russian, and Crabbet here.
Note also that Padron has 21 champions to his credit, and he is often considered a āhalterā sire, as was Ivanhoe Tsultan.
Not much (if any) Egyptian in the above list. That is not to say Egyptians canāt do it - just that they have not been heavily used or campaigned for dressage.
ETA: I tried to do columns, but itās a mess. Sorry! and I double numbered, so itās a 7 way tie for #26. Sigh. Canāt get good help these days!
[QUOTE=oldernewbie;5498771]
The August/September issue of Modern Arabian Horse had an article of the top producing dressage sires from 1960 -2010. Unfortunately you cannot link to that article, but hereās the list:
And a 7-way tie for #25 between: Promotion, Barbary, El Kasaka, Oran Van Bandy, Muscat, Bey Oro, and Al-Marah Canadius.
Not a big surprise to see a lot of Polish, Russian, and Crabbet here.
Note also that Padron has 21 champions to his credit, and he is often considered a āhalterā sire, as was Ivanhoe Tsultan.
Not much (if any) Egyptian in the above list. That is not to say Egyptians canāt do it - just that they have not been heavily used or campaigned for dressage.
ETA: I tried to do columns, but itās a mess. Sorry! and I double numbered, so itās a 7 way tie for #26. Sigh. Canāt get good help these days![/QUOTE]
remember these leading sires were taken from NUMBERS of horses winning/competing in dressage. So Training / First level horses would be weighted.
And these numbers are from Arabian shows. Not from ALL USDF /EC shows. So again, the lower level horses would be weighted since most AHA shows do not offer FEI classes.
There have been a number of Egyptian breds doing well for a great many years. Including my dainty 16 2 hand 1/2 Arabian (sired by an Egyptian) who competed I2 last year.
That being said, I would be more interested in the horseās attitude, way of moving, conformation a long time before I would be interested in its breeding.
[QUOTE=mjhco;5498827]
remember these leading sires were taken from NUMBERS of horses winning/competing in dressage. So Training / First level horses would be weighted.
And these numbers are from Arabian shows. Not from ALL USDF /EC shows. So again, the lower level horses would be weighted since most AHA shows do not offer FEI classes.
There have been a number of Egyptian breds doing well for a great many years. Including my dainty 16 2 hand 1/2 Arabian (sired by an Egyptian) who competed I2 last year.
That being said, I would be more interested in the horseās attitude, way of moving, conformation a long time before I would be interested in its breeding.[/QUOTE]
I believe the list is biased in another way as well. Itās very hard to tell what sires were used systematically as dressage horses. In the article they talk about the fact that a dressage trainer happened to be close by Ivanhoe Tsultanās residence and used him a lot, implying that he was close by and convenient (and very handsome). IT certainly didnāt have a dressage record. But he proved to be a good dressage sire.
I get the impression (having been away for a while) that dressage has kind of been the red headed stepchild of the Arab world until recently. So I do believe that people have selected horses for their individual merits rather than pedigrees to some extent. The list just shows how the pedigrees of those individuals happened to work out. In the article they say āSerendipity has likely played a role in how many offspring found the perhaps unintended consequence of a dressage career.ā But itās clear that serendipity or not, some lines are good performers in dressage. They donāt delve into why too much in the article.
Finally, I didnāt mean to slight Egyptians. Just stating that they donāt appear on the list, for whatever reason. That being said, KB Omega Fahim, the current GP Sport Horse Nationals champion, appears to be straight, or very high percentage Egyptian (sorry, my bloodline reading skills are a bit rusty). Iām sure others with Egyptian lines are just as capable.
This is excellent advice. Particularly if the OP is looking for a riding horse rather than for breeding. The individual is either going to exhibit the physical and interior qualities that make it suited as a dressage horse or not.
Even if the OP is investigating breeding, the individual is still of paramount importance. Names in a pedigree are only useful in the context of understanding where a horse may have gotten certain traits. Studying the pedigree of a particular horse may provide clues regarding how likely that horse is to breed certain qualities forward. Some Arabian pedigrees show a pattern of consistently selecting for good riding horse type with continual improvement and balancing of traits over generations. If you want to breed Arabians for dressage, then that kind of pattern is more desirable than one that is a hodge-podge of breeding directions.
If the OP is looking for for a stallion to breed to a particular mare then it might be helpful to know something about the mare. There are a number of good stallions out thereāQuick Silver Bey, KB Omega Fahim, BeyMoon Zela, and Lasodo are all rather nice with good performance credentials and there are others. There are also a number of promising younger stallions coming along.
[QUOTE=oldernewbie;5498867]
ā¦
I get the impression (having been away for a while) that dressage has kind of been the red headed stepchild of the Arab world until recently. So I do believe that people have selected horses for their individual merits rather than pedigrees to some extent. The list just shows how the pedigrees of those individuals happened to work out. In the article they say āSerendipity has likely played a role in how many offspring found the perhaps unintended consequence of a dressage career.ā But itās clear that serendipity or not, some lines are good performers in dressage. They donāt delve into why too much in the article.
Finally, I didnāt mean to slight Egyptians. Just stating that they donāt appear on the list, for whatever reason. That being said, KB Omega Fahim, the current GP Sport Horse Nationals champion, appears to be straight, or very high percentage Egyptian (sorry, my bloodline reading skills are a bit rusty). Iām sure others with Egyptian lines are just as capable.[/QUOTE]
We still are the red headed step children.
KB Omega Fahim is marvelous. But he is not 100% Egyptian. Quite a bit of Crabbet. A bunch of Babson. One line of āmodernā Egyptian.
I am no Arab expert, but I am putting a plug in for the CMK. I had a CMK/Davinport bred mare at one time that was really special.
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