I have an older tested Cushings/Ir horse. Vet says leave him on his current diet, TC Sr and alfalfa cubes. Maybe this diet is ok, but I fear Laminitus (horse has never had an episode). Vet says this is a high possibility for this condition no matter the diet. And After starting the Prascend med, he has stopped eating his alfalfa cubes. No equine nutritionists (or better vet) available in my rural area.
You can search articles on the internet for this subject and you gather scattered info regarding putting together a diet for this type horse. And please don’t recommend the ECIR group, I know about them and I don’t want to deal with them. I know it’s complicated but if I could just find one book, I really prefer ebook but hardcover if that’s the only format available. Hopefully not graduate level. My ultimate goal is to be able to understand enough to create my own spreadsheet in Numbers (I am very familiar with creating Numbers spreadsheets).
TC Senior is great, and probably switch to the TC Timothy Balance Cubes. If you DIY you are likely to get a much higher NSC. Don’t mess with this! The NSC of TC Senior is very low.
I am not aware of any credible books but “Feed XL”. Seems to be a huge help to many people:). It does cost money to use it.
Also, FWIW, my friend fed TC Timothy balance cubes to her Cushings/IR horse. Even if you don’t want to switch now, they may be something to keep in mind .
https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/timothy-balance-cubes/
from all I have read, it seems most horses do lose their appetite once they start on Prascend.
My IR horse is 21. It’s a constant worry that he might develop Cushings. Wishing you the very best:)
Thank you so much. First cubes I tried to get were the TC Timothy. I have a couple of TC dealers in my area but they only carry a couple of the TC feeds like Sr and Lite. They say Triple Crown is hard to become a dealer with and then is heard to deal with therefore neither will order for me. Teskey’s is about 50 miles away, will order but at a 10 bag minimum so glad I didn’t start out with that. I’m thinking since my horse just started the Prascend he may be in the veil and could start eating the alfalfa cubes in time. But if not, I am needin to find a hay substitute. Soooo, would like to learn more about proper ration balancing. Thanks again for your responses, this forum is a great responsive group!
Do you have access to hay pellets rather than cubes? Because it might be easier than finding the TC in your area. Standlee makes Timothy pellets, I believe.
Spend the money on the Nutrient Requirements for Horses 6th Edition. There’s also a free online version where you can plug in some numbers and get some basic info back.
But for spreadsheet-type balancing, you don’t need a physically local nutritionist. There are some excellent ones available in the US, and rarely is it necessary to see the horse in person. Claire Thunes at Summit Equine Nutrition is excellent, for example.
FeedXL is a good starting point if you want to get a general idea of where things stand for overage and deficiencies. It’s pitfalls are that it almost always tells you the horse is deficient in, say, B12, but in reality, barring digestive issues, horses make enough of that on their own.
It also won’t tell you where you’re off in ratios. For example, you will almost always see that you have an excess of iron, and usually “enough” copper and zinc relative to how much they are supposed to have. But it won’t tell you that there isn’t enough cu/zn relative to how much Fe there is. That’s the sort of thing a nutritionist can help you with, if you don’t want to learn about the various ratios and figure out how much of what to add to balance it all out.
But, those things are very easy to find, and a little math can tell you what you need to know.
You probably need an advanced degree in nutrition to accomplish what you want to accomplish. The easiest and cheapest way to do what you want to do is to test your hay and then call Triple Crown since you can get Lite and Sr. Both are possible options for your horse.
Feed XL is a waste of money. Most people don’t weigh AND test their forage, so they don’t know exactly how much/what the horse is consuming on a regular basis. So the great bulk of the diet is unknown, then they plug in a feed and supplements and decide they’ve been saved by the spreadsheet.
Any nutritional advice is only as good as the input given. Whether it’s FeedXL, or a nutritionist, or DIY with excellent knowledge of the subject, it is only a best guess if there is no analysis of the forage you are feeding.
IME FeedXL can be valuable for people feeding a bunch of supplements, and want to more conveniently see where they might be causing problems, so the $20/30/whatever it is, can be a cost-effective way to get a quick answer that someone doesn’t know how to, or doesn’t want to take the time to do.
It’s of less value in trying to balance a diet for the reasons above, since it does not tell you anything about ratios.
I have 2 horses, Only one eats hay, the older Cushings/Ir horse has teeth issues and doesn’t, I’m trying to convince him to eat cubes. I buy 10 bales at a time! Storage is an issue and the 10 works. But I get from different sources so testing is not an option. It’s the Cushings/Ir horse I am wanting to know more about what I might feed or supplement with, or I may decide I don’t need to, if I knew more. I have looked at the Nutritiin Requurements of Book to buy online several times, I may do that.
I like “feed your horse like a horse” by Juliet Getty
These are some of the questions I have and the reason I am seeking books or even courses to learn more. I am not looking for answered in this thread, my list of questions below is just FYI.
Again, I have a Cushings/Ir horse (that I want to live as long/comfortable) as I can make him, he has earned it. And I daily feed him 6 lbs of TC SR and as much alfalfa soaked cubes as I can get him to eat i.e. not much. He is a small QH, about 13.5 hh, currently a little underweight, wt tape shows 769 lbs. I read as many online articles as I can and in almost all I see recommendations of supplements to add for Cushings/Ir horses. BUT, do I need to when I am feeding TC SR, that’s what I don’t know. For average horses, no supplements would be necessary, I have never believed in that but again this is a Cushings/Ir horse.
- I am adding ½ c stabilized ground flax and 1 capsule 400 iu natural vit E (daily). Going to start using (cheaper) whole flax when my pail runs out. I think I am safe in adding these 2 items.
- All articles say these Cushings horses should have additional amino acids, Magnesium and Chromium added. But again, do I need to or is he getting enough in his TC SR? These are things I want to learn.
I have a Cushing’s/IR 22 year old that DID get laminitis. He foundered in his hinds and we believe the laminitis was triggered by a mechanical issue (nails/shoeing) but strongly supported and “encouraged” by his metabolic condition. It wasn’t fun - he rotated about 13% on one hind, and 11% on the other and was a few millimeters from his coffin bone breaking through the sole. But luckily he recovered and is doing remarkably well. He is a large pony and has a strong tendency to get fat on air.
I’ve been through all the nutrition stuff with nutrition people (at our feed store and vets as well - the top ones in our area). The problem with feeding a lot of grain - senior or not - is if you aren’t feeding the recommended amount, your horse is not getting the full nutrients you see on the bag. While TC Senior is a great feed, it does have higher NSC than I would want, and other ingredients as well as feeding a high “volume” to get those nutrients. The large meals can set you up for ulcers. In addition, Cushing’s horses will lose topline and muscle. Here’s what has worked well for mine since he foundered (almost 2 yrs now). He looks fabulous and no one can believe his age. His energy is great and he is on a high Prascend dose daily.
I feed the Legends CarbCare Balancer pellet - it’s a ration balancer but you only need to feed a pound 2x per day to get all the nutrients. I soak mine and it soaks to a nice soft mash. All of my horses are on it and have never looked better. They also get a handful of Alam by McCauley’s which is super low NSC. And then for the pony, he gets an orchard timothy mix in hay nets for slow feeding most of the day.
He is dry lotted 90% of the year - this is key for him. Since he actually foundered NO GRASS. This part kills me but not worth risking laminitis. Luckily he has a 10h shetland buddy that is dry lotted with him. The only exception is that in deep winter, he gets to go out to our large pasture when the grass is brown/dead mostly for about 3 hours a day. The exercise has been wonderful for him. He canters/gallops around and plays with our 2 larger horses. He is sound barefoot on softer ground. And when it dries up/is less muddy, he is turned out in trail boots on the hinds. (New Macs with cloud pads)
My vets have told me you really want their weight on the low side if anything. Rather have them a tad thinner than the other direction.
I also use 2 supplements - they are expensive but both have proven trials/science behind them. They are Heiro and Metaboral. Since the Heiro, my pony has been able to be turned out muzzled 3 hours a day during winter months only.
I know you only want book recommendations but thought you might find this helpful since I’ve been through it with Cushings/IR and unfortunately the founder part. We are very very lucky he recovered so well. Managing a horse like this is hard, but worth it as mine too is very special and still loves to be ridden lightly.
Thank you, tpup, that was helpful. I do feed him the minimum req of TC SR, 6 lbs split between 2 feedings. I do worry about that since it seems a large amt for him. I sure didn’t know large feed amounts caused ulcers, I thought things such as going for long time with nothing, among other issues, caused it. At this point, he has never had a laminitus attack, I have owned him since 1999.
No problem. Didn’t want to overwhelm w/too much information. One thing I have learned is that keeping their insulin levels consistent throughout the day is really important. a.e. slowwww feed hay net so they are nibbling all day on small amounts. Since I have made that change I have seen great results even in my 10 hh shetland…his weight and his feet as he used to get these mild laminitic “starts” or flares and get sore feet. Since on the Heiro and tightly managed, he is a new pony. Doesn’t even get sore after trims. His system is super sensitive and higher protein flares him, so he is the only one that doesn’t get the ration balancer. He gets a handful of the Alam soaked and his supplements. And small hole hay nets. Since yours can’t eat hay that’s a challenge.
The alfalfa is great for their stomachs/ulcers so you are already doing a great thing there. One idea is split his feedings into 3 per day if that can be managed…3 smaller meals vs 2 to keep insulin from spiking. I had my large pony do a fasting type in-clinic IR test. His system showed very high sensitivity to the sugar he was fed for the test…a.e. BIG spike. Which is why I think he is doing so well being slow-fed the hay. I also try to exercise him - either longeing or light rides a few times a week. That really helps too.
Another option for you might be hay stretcher pellets. Very low NSC I believe but I think they too need to be soaked.
Good luck - it’s frustrating but I know we go the extra mile for these special ponies!
Thank you again, tpup. Yes, I would love to feed him hay, that’s been his diet all the years I have owned him, he quids all of it just starting this past summer. That’s one of the reasons even the 3 lbs per feeding he gets concerns me, not used to giving him any grain. I do feed him in 4 feedings per day. He gets his TC SR in the early morning and gets his soaked Alf cubes a few hours later, repeat late afternoon. He is also on 1mg Prascend. He is turned out on our 8 acre pasture between 2nd & 3rd feedings and overnight. I have one more horse so he has a buddy. We have a native pasture (north tx) but there are some green plants in early spring so he will be limited to overnight turnout.
You need to be looking at reputable sites (possibly start with The Horse) for your specific situations. What you are looking for isn’t about balancing the diet. Yes, the diets should be more or less balanced to begin with, but when dealing with any anomalies, you need to know what the condition is, what special nutritional needs they have, and go from there.
For example, the IR horse (there is no “Cusing’s/IR horse” unless your horse has both, though IR often follows Cushing’s) needs a low NSC diet - preferably 10% or lower in total - and also may need one or more of the “IR supplements”, which might be as simple as more magnesium, or a supplement like Remission or Quiessence, or any of several other supplements that have helped the IR horse manage blood sugar.
The Cushing’s horse always benefits from being managed like an IR horse, in addition to his Prascend (pergolide).
If your QH is happy and sound on the current diet, I wouldn’t mess with it. If he needs improvement, that’s when you have to start looking at more “complicated” management of a horse like him
- I am adding ½ c stabilized ground flax and 1 capsule 400 iu natural vit E (daily). Going to start using (cheaper) whole flax when my pail runs out. I think I am safe in adding these 2 items.
- All articles say these Cushings horses should have additional amino acids, Magnesium and Chromium added. But again, do I need to or is he getting enough in his TC SR? These are things I want to learn.
All articles don’t say that, and there is no “must have” for Cushing’s horses’ diet. This tells me you might be looking at forums, or websites that post blogs and opinions as “facts”. Half the battle trying to learn things like this is learning how to recognize a site that’s based on facts and science, not simply opinions and personal experiences. There is little science behind the chromium, and while it was a promising nutrient several years ago, it has proven to not be the big deal it was thought to be. So be sure also to check dates on things you are reading.
Vitamin E should be given at, minimally IMHO, 2IU/lb, and the challenged horse (hard working, metabolic, injured, sick, etc) may need more
The reason additional AAs are often recommended for the Cushing’s horse is to increase his quality protein, since muscle quality is something they struggle with. With 6lb of TC Sr for your size horse, that may not be necessary. There’s no science to exact amounts of X ingredient to feed (not talking about drugs).
It’s very much an art to determine what works best for your horse and at this stage of the game. Next year it could change.
they keys are to research the diseases you are dealing with, look at what nutrients are suggested and why, and then be methodical about trying each at a time to see if you see changes or not.
At 13.2h, that is more than the minimum, BUT, since he cannot properly consume long-stem forage (I see he quids), and since TC Sr is a high quality, low NSC complete feed, it’s definitely not nearly as much as you could feed him. He could technically live on 14lb of the TC Sr, given his 700-ish lb weight.
I do worry about that since it seems a large amt for him.
It’s all good because you split the feedings up 
I sure didn’t know large feed amounts caused ulcers, I thought things such as going for long time with nothing, among other issues, caused it. At this point, he has never had a laminitus attack, I have owned him since 1999.
See above - in his case, you’re not feeding too much - in general, and especially of this feed. It’s 11.7% NSC, and it’s hard to find any other feed that’s this quality and this low NSC (sugar + starch).
If he’s happy and in good weight and good energy on this diet, I would not change a thing
Thank you, JB. And to clarify, I write Cushings/IR since he did test to have both.
If you are feeding TC, call TC. The posters on this bb are anonymous and have no credentials. The people are TC will tell you their real names and their credentials. There are people here who appear to have a good deal of knowledge about equine nutrition, but what they don’t know may work against what you are trying to accomplish. Nutrition is complex, there are still things no one knows, and both amounts and balance are very important. So if an anonymous person tells you to add something or subtract something, maybe it is correct, maybe not. You have no way of knowing.
TC Senior is not “grain.” It’s a forage based concentrate.
BTW, there is no such thing as a 13.5 hand horse.
