Best cross for a pony mare?

[GottaLuvSassyPonies]

I am seriously considering breeding my pony mare in the next couple of years. I hadn’t really thought about it until recently, because as far as I know she is grade and she is a little small for me (14h to my 5’9”- I know, but I looove ponies!) and I don’t really approve of breeding, registered or not, unless the mare truly has something to offer.

BUT I have had this mare since she was 5 months old. She was my very first project as a teenager, and has brought me nothing but ribbons and success, even with her limited amounts of showing. The judges love her, the competition tries to buy her, and I have had my trainers price her in the five figures, which boggles my mind because I could never afford much for a horse and she was a little plain Jane nobody. A dressage trainer asked when I would be breeding her, and that was the first time that it occurred to me that I could do that lol.

She means enough to me that when I had to sell my barn of ten horses for my move (military husband) I chose to keep her even over my big Eventing competition horse. I love this pony.

Sooo… what would I cross her with? She does mostly dressage (tried to make her the next Teddy O’Conner, but she decided that jumps outside the arena were too scary), but has great bascule and scope and is super fun to jump. I also like to ride and compete western sometimes (where I started my riding career) and she is more than willing to adapt to that as well. As an all-around rider, I like having an all around horse.

My favorites are Morgans, and while I want to breed and show them eventually I’m not super keen on crossing Pippa with one. I’m mostly wanting to add some height, blood, and bravery to her lol. 😂 I would love to enhance her movement and jumping scope as well. I was considering Connemara… but now I’m thinking PRE? I would also be interested in something that has some Tb or Arab blood in it, but I’m not sure how easy it will be to find a quality crossed stud? The foal will only be for me, and Pippa is already grade so I really don’t care if the stud is grade/crossed too, although if t were registerable that would be an awesome perk. Most of the best ponies I’ve come across have been mutts anyway. 😛

Sorry for the long winded post, but any ideas? Opinions?

[Scribbler]

PRE are great at dressage and working eq but not noted as big jumpers. They pop over low fences in WE but you don’t see them much in jumpers.

[JustTheTicket]

What’s your goal with the foal? Are you planning on keeping it and campaigning it yourself in dressage or jumpers or eventing or…? Are you planning on selling it? If it’s the latter, I suggest you really put serious thought into what your mare has to offer and research good stallions who will improve the foal for the specific discipline you plan on marketing it for.

while she sounds like a lovely partner for you, I don’t think “ I’ve had her since she was 5 months old” as a good enough reason to breed her.

[exvet]

Since she is a grade so possible a mix of breeds, I would lean towards a purebred for many reasons. The first is that you have a better chance of predicting what you’ll get. While it sounds like your mare is very nice, I would look for a stallion that suits her but still stamps his get, again for the predictability factor. By doing so you get a horse that likely can be registered. I would pick a stallion that compliments and yet is still breeding ‘like to like’ to minimize (though you can’t guarantee it won’t happen) the chances of getting a foal that was put together ‘by committee’. Hopefully that makes sense (and BTW my best mare was a Morgan x welsh cob mare; so, I’m all for Morgan crosses for the most part).

[Minxitbabe]

Do the Morgan. If you like them and are crossing to a grade that you have no clue how the baby will come out it may as well be to a breed you like. There are some nice ones out there that would add what you are looking for. Depending on how much you are willing to spend on this breeding will be a factor as well. Are you trying to stay cheap as possible ie local live cover or are you willing to go all out shipping for this grade foal?

[JB]

Do you have a picture? What type is she - TB type, stock horse type, Arab type, cob type?

The nice thing about a well-bred Morgan - older style at least, think Lippitt-bred, not sure about the more modern lines - is that their phenotype is pretty strong, and they just tend to make very nice crosses on even breeds that don’t tend to cross well. For example, if I were forced to outcross a Friesian, it would be to a Morgan.

Swap out Morgan for Arabian and the same thing - think Crabbett lines.

Shagyas are also another that tend to be pretty prepotent in phenotype.

I definitely agree with the purebred of a similar type, but also I wouldn’t be opposed to the likes of a well-bred Anglo, which is an old enough cross of similar types.

You do need to care about the breed of the stallion. You need to know what his pedigree is like and is known for, and you need to know what sort of offspring he produces out of mares similar to yours. Grade stallions should not be breeding animals to start with, much less bred to grade mares. There are some exceptions, but this isn’t one of them

If by “grade” you simply mean unregistered, but with a well-documented pedigree, that’s different, and potentially fine.

QH with lots of TB is also possible, but you’d want the sporthorse type, not the HUS type.

I would not do a PRE or any of the Baroque breeds.

And, there are quite a lot of WB stallions who are possibilities, but it depends on what type she is.

[MsM]

I love my Morgan, but finding a Morgan stallion that will reliably add height might be difficult. Pix of the mare?

[JB]

I would imagine any Morgan in the typical 15-16h range would add at least a good 2-3" to a 14h mare. Probably not a whole hand, but if the mare is also a more slender build, then I would also expect a foundation style Morgan to add substance, and that might make a 14.2/3 mare ride more like 15/15.1 or so.

The problem is - is the mare’s pedigree full of 13.2 ponies and she’s the giant? :lol: Is her pedigree full of 15h+ horses and she’s the runt of the family?

[GottaLuvSassyPonies]

MsM- there are many tall Morgans! I personally have a 16h morgan, and know of one that is 17h. Both are old style and very typey.

I think much in my post has been misunderstood- the foal would ONLY be for me. The length of time I have had her has no impact on whether or not I breed her. I make that decision purely on her abilities, personality, and the fact that she is so popular with many professionals. I would never breed a horse that isn’t worth breeding, and certainly wouldn’t do it for profit.

I am am NOT looking to breed to to a backyard stud- purebred is preferred, obviously, but there are many successful studs out there that are crossed with blood. By this I’m talking like when we use Tbs and Arabs to put more blood back in event horses. Or how some crosses are their own breeds, like the appendix or the Azteca. Both are well-known, proven crosses with traceable bloodlines, even if they aren’t registered. If I COULD register the foal inspire of its dam, that would be the best, both for showing and for security if I ever did need to sell it. whileni would love to add some blood to my pony, I am not looking to make a full cross to a Tb or to an Arab, which is why I brought up crossed studs. I would be interested in a warm blood stallion, but I’m not sure how many nice short ones there are? She is only 14h, after all.

I’m not hugely particular in what discipline the foal will be oriented towards. I like versitality and adaptability, which my pony is, and I would like to continue that. If I had to choose, I would pick dressage, but I’d prefer something that could jump as well, since I love to event and my pony already has nice form and scope.

She turns into a mini-warmblood under saddle and gets all the oohs and aahs, but nobody has any idea what she is. Even the vets just shrug and through out a few guesses. She looks kind of Cobb-like, but has a slim face. Lot of people think Connemara, or maybe a welsh cross of some sort. Somebody was breeding something- they brought six mare and foal pairs to the feedlot. The mares all got shipped but someone came and got all six of the unweaned, starving foals. For several years now I have actually been keeping my eye out for another one of those foals to pop up, just because I like my pony so much.

I will get some confirmation pics. She is a lil chunky and fuzzy right now though!

[Dawn_JL]

Pics of the mare could be helpful in recommending potentially suitable options.

Also, how old is she? Breeding can get more challenging with maiden mares 14 years or older.

Since your mare’s breeding is unknown using a cross-bred sire is going to be more unpredictable than using a purebred.

For registration purposes, using an Arabian sire would give you the option of Half-Arab registration. Connemaras also offer part-bred registration. A Welsh or Welsh Cob cross can get registration papers too. The AMHA does not register part-bred Morgans.

Most other sire options would only be eligible to register with something like AWS (American Warmblood Society).

[findeight]

It’s really tough to gamble on getting more height when you don’t have any idea what she is and what her parents were. Not sure you’d want to risk breeding her with so much uncertainty about her genetic make up. It is more complicated with older maiden mares and not without risk for any mare. Can be expensive too if she doesn’t take right away or at all or does but with complications.

Some stallion owners are picky about what mares get their services as well. Might not want a Pony mare of unknown breeding for their sud

Thknk the best thing you can do is learn more about the breeding process, associated costs and risks keeping in mind she may never conceive and carry to term. Ask any breeding farm, it’s not a given. Don’t pin all your hopes and dreams on this.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@GottaLuvSassyPonies

She means enough to me that when I had to sell my barn of ten horses for my move (military husband) I chose to keep her even over my big Eventing competition horse. I love this pony.

Along with her age and possible difficulties in getting her in foal, if you love her this much, sure you want to risk loosing her to a problem carrying or foaling out?

[exvet]

@GottaLuvSassyPonies

I think much in my post has been misunderstood- the foal would ONLY be for me. The length of time I have had her has no impact on whether or not I breed her. I make that decision purely on her abilities, personality, and the fact that she is so popular with many professionals. I would never breed a horse that isn’t worth breeding, and certainly wouldn’t do it for profit.

I am am NOT looking to breed to to a backyard stud- purebred is preferred, obviously, but there are many successful studs out there that are crossed with blood.

While many of us start out with strong aspirations and convictions that the resultant foal will be retained, no matter what…including myself…many of us cannot predict the future. Life and sh!t happens and sometimes not only it’s unexpected you simply aren’t prepared for the sacrifices or changes that must be made as a result. Producing an animal that is registered or could be registered only adds value to the beast the papers would be attached to so that a ‘better’ outcome, should the future change, be more likely - not a guarantee - but I’m sure you know what I mean.

[Nootka]

Do you like color? A Knabstrupper could fit the bill. Some will add bone and height and keep the athleticism. Might give you color depending on stallion you choose. There are registration options for your foal too

Mine is here www.draumrhestaknabstruppers.com but there are others too

[melula]

Maybe look at some of the German Riding Pony stallions. Belefonte de Avalon is a little eventer stallion.

I have a Lotus T honey. I would not have bred a pony to Lotus T given the size difference, but I’m sure glad Andras did. My little gelding just rolled around a BN course at the end of October without batting an eye. He is 14.3 and 4 yrs old.

[4horses]

If i was breeding, this is what I would look for:

l like Welsh section Ds. Very nice looking! If a bit more chunky.

Knabstruppers- probably not for me. I am concerned about uveitis in appaloosa coat patterns.

My main interest would be performance, with temperament second to that, good feet that don’t need shoes… Sound legs, good conformation.

Many Morgans are very nice in both temperament and build. My friend bought a 2 yr old, that was barely saddle broke. Just got on and started trail riding. The horse didn’t even know how to turn, or do anything. He was calm enough to just follow along, even though he was just a baby and had only been started a couple rides in the roundpen. I wouldn’t dream of trail riding a horse that green… Some have a really nice, easy going temperament and take new experiences in stride. That is the temperament i want in a horse.

I don’t care for Arabian horses so that is not a cross i would consider, just because I’ve met too many high strung, spooky, anxious ones. If you want brave, then I would look for a calm/confident relaxed horse. A horse that has shown under saddle.

This stallion is nice, as an example.
http://www.horseofcorff.com/platinum_vom_rappenhof.htm

I’m sure you could find better. I was trying to find my favorite welsh stallion but can’t find the link.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[Kaspercat]

I find it interesting that someone can like Welshies but not Arabs. They are very similar in the way they need to be sensitively trained and handled to avoid having a horse that can overreact. With C’s and D’s it’s the Welsh dragon fire in their belly that some people love and some people hate. IME someone who gets on with one, gets on fine with the other.

Here in the UK breeding from performance proven crossbred ponies isn’t unusual. Show cobs, show horses, show ponies and competition horses can have a real mixture of breeds in them. You really need to study your mare and to identify any weak areas she has both temperament and conformation wise. Then you need to start looking for stallions that are strong in all of those areas.

[exvet]

@Kaspercat

I find it interesting that someone can like Welshies but not Arabs. They are very similar in the way they need to be sensitively trained and handled to avoid having a horse that can overreact. With C’s and D’s it’s the Welsh dragon fire in their belly that some people love and some people hate. IME someone who gets on with one, gets on fine with the other.

Here in the UK breeding from performance proven crossbred ponies isn’t unusual. Show cobs, show horses, show ponies and competition horses can have a real mixture of breeds in them. You really need to study your mare and to identify any weak areas she has both temperament and conformation wise. Then you need to start looking for stallions that are strong in all of those areas.

LOL Kaspercat what you say is so true. Because the welsh cob isn’t a ‘norm’ here, though thanks to a few who made it up to FEI and hit the media, one of the first being Kentchurch Chime providing a stellar introduction, there are many who really aren’t all that familiar with the breed. I have always described them to others who inquire that riding a Welsh Cob is like riding an Arab on steroids…needless to say it was my Bey Shah (Arabian) gelding that helped me earn my bronze all the while I had my section C and D(s) coming up through the ranks and then a section D who helped me earn my silver with a couple of other C & Ds who also made it to FEI. We’ll see if my current cheeky welsh cob will be able to help earn my gold - so far the talent seems to be there as is the typical Welsh Cob sense of humor (which also accompanies that fire in the belly )

[Kaspercat]

Please don’t think that I believe that Arab horses (or Welshies) are high strung wing-nuts, they aren’t. They don’t suffer fools or rough handling though IME, so no ‘trainer’ that acts like a rough thug is ever going to successfully get the best out of either breed. Sensitive handling doesn’t mean treating them like glass, it’s treating them fairly and with calmness. They want to understand what you are asking and to feel that it is reasonable. They can be the most willing partners that you could ever wish for.

Both breeds are on the hotter side temperament wise. By this I mean that it takes less to stimulate them, this doesn’t mean that their brains fall out when they are on their toes, but I always know when the flowers in the hedgerow have come into bloom because my mare certainly notices everything new however tiny and unthreatening. Yet even when on her toes she can cope with meeting huge farm traffic on a single track lane. She’s a complete star, but some people really don’t get on with her and frankly she can’t be arsed with them either. A personality clash maybe?

I also have a little high percentage Crabbet. Get her on side and she’ll give you her all. If it’s not working, it’s because the human asked wrong.

I greatly enjoyed looking at your photos Dawn. What a beautiful and talented horse.

[Dawn_JL]

Kaspercat, it wasn’t your comments that prompted my post. It was another poster’s statement. (quoted below)

FWIW, I pretty much agree with your general description of the sensitivity/responsiveness of Arabians (and Welsh). They are attentive --even the quiet ones that are seemingly unflappable are paying attention to all the details.

I don’t care for Arabian horses so that is not a cross i would consider, just because I’ve met too many high strung, spooky, anxious ones.”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

Since I’ve been exposed to many Arabians that were “babysitter” types for their amateur or youth riders, my experience of the breed is quite different than the poster who made that comment. (Though I am well aware that there are plenty of Arabians that are high strung, spooky ones.)

Not all of mine are totally laid back, but I’ve sold several “steady Eddy” types as school horses or for amateurs that needed a quiet forgiving mount. Others of mine require a more confident rider. As with any horse, the individual needs to be considered.