Best dog training books?

[Houndhill]

I just dug out and re-read my dog-eared Koehler, copyright 1966. That is what we did back in the day. I have to say, our local dog training club used these methods, and so did I, with several dogs at that time.

I am the first to complain that dogs today are not as well trained as dogs trained by these methods back in the day. I especially notice it on the stays at obedience trials.

However, it came at a cost. The force and violence of these methods, and the compulsion, were not something that all dogs could tolerate. The wolfhounds tended to assume a “captive lion made to do tricks” demeanor, humiliated, unhappy, not a good thing.

Dogs are incredible, in that so many of them will become trained no matter what methods are used.

But, just think if you tried to apply the Koehler methods to cats, chickens, dolphins, etc…you would not get very far.

It is very militaristic…which works better for some people, and some animals, than others. Some thrive on this, others do not.

When I started doing the more positive/clicker training for the wolfhounds, they responded so well, and it was so much more enjoyable for them, and for for me.

It was very much more a partnership, where we worked together, and have had great results. But, you must follow through with these methods, and proof, in order to get the reliabilibity. This is a step which is all too often neglected.

Most of the books I have focus more on training for competition obedience, or puppies, so I am not good on books for adult training with an emphasis on agility training, other than the Sue Ailsby books which are good for anything. The Chris Zink books are great for agility, though they focus more on physical conditioning than actual training.

[Kyzteke]

Some of what you say is true, however it IS a lifesaver for many dogs that simply don’t have either 1) a deep desire to please their human as opposed to pleasing themselves and 2) a deep food motivation.

People need to understand that in this world there is NEVER just one “right” way to do something. When I was in nursing school, we learned that every human has a different way of learning, so I don’t see why dogs should be much different.

“Military” style actually works great for some people…they LIKE the discipline, the order, the respect.

And remember, it’s just part of the process. You do reward the dog with tons of praise and, in the end, the dog can be trusted with far more freedom than a dog who is simply responding to food.

Sorry, but to me, the human MUST be in charge for the animal’s safety. And I never had to worry about cars, squirrels, cats, bikes, balls etc. etc. tempting my dogs to bolt. A simple command IMMEDIATELY turned their attention back to me, even when they were closer physically to “the object of their desire” than they were to me.

Like I said, the truest test was living right in the heart of Hollyweird and walking around for 3 yrs, crossing Sunset Blvd and such, and knowing my dogs didn’t have to be on a leash and yet they were still safe.

Now, this didn’t happen over night, and it takes work and practice, but it was worth it.

And why would anyone want to obedience train either a cat OR a chicken?

[threedogpack]

@Kyzteke;7264556

Some of what you say is true, however it IS a lifesaver for many dogs that simply don’t have either 1) a deep desire to please their human as opposed to pleasing themselves and 2) a deep food motivation.

I am not challenging you, but there is always motivation, it’s the trainers job to figure out what it is, or develop it. Koehler developed motivation to avoid the pop on the collar, no matter if from hitting the end of a line or delivered by the hand holding the leash. Denise Fenzi knows how to develop motivation in a whole host of ways. She makes toys valuable, but you can’t take them into the ring, so she also makes herself valuable and interactions with her valuable. Her second youngest dog didn’t care for food, but Denise developed an interest in food so she had one more reason for the dog to want to work with her.

People need to understand that in this world there is NEVER just one “right” way to do something.

I don’t believe anyone here said there was only one way.

“Military” style actually works great for some people…they LIKE the discipline, the order, the respect.

but it isn’t about the people, it’s about how the dog responds.

And remember, it’s just part of the process. You do reward the dog with tons of praise and, in the end, the dog can be trusted with far more freedom than a dog who is simply responding to food.

I disagree and will again turn you to Denise Fenzi. The level of reliability for her dogs is quite high. And if she isn’t your cup of tea, check out Michael Ellis. One of the most staunch punishment based trainers in the US today, Ed Frawley of Leerburg Kennels, has come to view +R as the way to go.

[

And why would anyone want to obedience train either a cat OR a chicken?

to quote another very famous and experienced trainer, Bob Bailey.

3. You use chickens in your famous camps. Why?

The Brelands used chickens as teaching models in 1947. I have never found a better model for teaching the fundamental principles of animal training. Chickens are hardy, readily available, closely related genetically, and large enough to be seen from a distance. Chickens are behaviorally simple, they learn quickly, and lack most of the complicated social interactions of most mammals and other birds. They appear to have on their minds only: eating; not being eaten; making more chickens. All of this simplicity aids the teaching of the mechanics of changing behavior. Chickens move very fast, testing and developing the reactions of the trainer. Chickens live long enough (9 to 15 years) to teach many classes of students."

http://www.clickersolutions.com/interviews/bailey.htm

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7264556]
Some of what you say is true, however it IS a lifesaver for many dogs that simply don’t have either 1) a deep desire to please their human as opposed to pleasing themselves and 2) a deep food motivation.

People need to understand that in this world there is NEVER just one “right” way to do something. When I was in nursing school, we learned that every human has a different way of learning, so I don’t see why dogs should be much different.

“Military” style actually works great for some people…they LIKE the discipline, the order, the respect.

And remember, it’s just part of the process. You do reward the dog with tons of praise and, in the end, the dog can be trusted with far more freedom than a dog who is simply responding to food.

Sorry, but to me, the human MUST be in charge for the animal’s safety. And I never had to worry about cars, squirrels, cats, bikes, balls etc. etc. tempting my dogs to bolt. A simple command IMMEDIATELY turned their attention back to me, even when they were closer physically to “the object of their desire” than they were to me.

Like I said, the truest test was living right in the heart of Hollyweird and walking around for 3 yrs, crossing Sunset Blvd and such, and knowing my dogs didn’t have to be on a leash and yet they were still safe.

Now, this didn’t happen over night, and it takes work and practice, but it was worth it.

And why would anyone want to obedience train either a cat OR a chicken?[/QUOTE]

Yes! Some animals, and some people, work very well in the military mode, I agree.

Why train a cat, chicken, or dolphin?..for commercials, of course! The Famcy Feast beautiful grey Persian is clicker trained, as are most animals now who “act”, in commercials or for entertainment, including those at Sea World…but that is another, darker story.

Yes, that is wonderful, the control you had over these two dogs!!

But, there are many other dogs, with very different genetic make ups, histories, goals, etc.

I sense that you are cognizant of these other dogs, other training methods that may work even better than those you used.

However,food motivation is not the only thing you can use for a reward. You can use play, or tug of war, or whatever that organism finds reinforcing. With the wolfhounds, though, it is generally food, as it is for dolphins and cats.

Most animals will work for food. Some have to be a be a bit hungry, as in they missed the previous meal, but many will work for particularly delicious treats.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7264589]
including those at Sea World…but that is another, darker story.[/QUOTE]

a bit of a spinoff, but Houndhill, did you watch Blackfish?

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;7264600]
a bit of a spinoff, but Houndhill, did you watch Blackfish?[/QUOTE]

OMG, so was fascinated by Blackfish!!!

We may need to do a spinoff thread!

[Blinkers_On]

Ian Dunbar, and Michael Ellis. Different, but great

[vacation1]

For general dog-behavior/training theory, Patricia McConnell is extremely readable.

Re: the Koehlers. There are now a lot of dog training books geared to the owner of a dog who is not a food/tennis ball/love-motivated Golden Retriever. You can likely find something that incorporates a positive ethic with an understanding of the more challenging breeds. I’m not anti-Koehler, but their method is quite old at this point - William was training in the 1950s for Disney - and there have been a lot of advances in what we know about dog and human behavior. And there have been relevant changes in society. The Koehler method places huge emphasis on having a dog that’s 110% reliable off-leash. That made much more sense in 1960 than it does today, given the spread of leash laws and dog waste laws.

[littlebaypony]

I like “Beyond Basic Obedience” by Diane Bauman. I think she also put out some videos.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7264589]
Yes! Some animals, and some people, work very well in the military mode, I agree.

Why train a cat, chicken, or dolphin?..for commercials, of course! The Famcy Feast beautiful grey Persian is clicker trained, as are most animals now who “act”, in commercials or for entertainment, including those at Sea World…but that is another, darker story.

Yes, that is wonderful, the control you had over these two dogs!!

But, there are many other dogs, with very different genetic make ups, histories, goals, etc.

I sense that you are cognizant of these other dogs, other training methods that may work even better than those you used.

However,food motivation is not the only thing you can use for a reward. You can use play, or tug of war, or whatever that organism finds reinforcing. With the wolfhounds, though, it is generally food, as it is for dolphins and cats.

Most animals will work for food. Some have to be a be a bit hungry, as in they missed the previous meal, but many will work for particularly delicious treats.[/QUOTE]

Koehler also trained for the movies & tv. He never wrote a book on how he did that, so I don’t know his methods, but if you watch the first Incredible Journey he actually has a cat stand off a bear…and this was before CGI!

I guess I have to ask…what happens when your dog bolts across the street after a (fill in the blank) and a car is coming…and you don’t happen to have your clicker/treat/tug toy or the dog just ate and isn’t hungry? Because most dogs with a high prey drive are going to be totally distracted by something like this…maybe just for afew moments, but it’s still enough to kill.

Now, I confess these days I don’t bother with much training…I live far out in the country, so most often I train the last few groups of dogs by the “I scream at you till you figure it out or I get tired and give up,” Method of Dog Training. Not near the response I had from my dogs of yesteryear, but then I worked much harder at it then.

And what a bunch of rowdy pooches I have!

Anyone who goes to obedience shows on a regular basis will notice that some breeds just don’t really give a rat’s patootie about either your food OR your approval…some of us crazy folk sort of like those types of dogs, BUT you still need to be able to control them.

And maybe I’m wrong, but if food & clickers are so effective, why the popularity of e-collars? The basis for K. is just the same…a UNCOMFORTABLE (not painful) reminder that there are consequences. Sometimes (I think) that is a very good thing to remember, both with dogs AND humans…

Like I said, dogs who are highly motivated to please can be trained almost without doing anything at all, but to get a Bull Terrier (which was one of my 2 dogs at that time) to be that responsive…that’s not easy. In fact, I’m pretty sure Koehler trained a Bullie up to CDX or even UD. THAT is not easy.

When the dog (in the Koehler method) gets corrected when he gets in front of you, and he repositions himself, you DO praise him (at least I did), so it’s not like you are beating him up.

Like I said, it’s not the ticket for all dogs everywhere, but it definitely has a place in any smart dog trainer’s vocabulary.

And when someone has trained a chicken to track, search, or do a full obedience course, let me know…

[Houndhill]

This is a great DVD, I’ve included some reviews as they address some of the questions raised.

Dogwise is a great place to order DVDs and books.

REALLY RELIABLE RECALL - TRAIN YOUR DOG TO COME WHEN CALLED… NO MATTER WHAT! DVD
by Leslie Nelson (See other books by author)

 Publisher: Healthy Dog Productions

Edition: 2004 DVD
Run Time: 90 Min.
ISBN: 897059001108
Item: DTB810P
Ships the next business day.
Summary: Leslie Nelson’s Really Reliable Recall DVD shows easy to follow steps to train your dog to come when called, especially when it really counts - in an emergency! This dog training DVD also contains chapters focusing on difficult to train breeds as well as chapters that can be used by dog trainers during class instruction.

Video Clip:
Click here to preview! (Video opens in a new window)

Price: $29.95
Expanded Description:
From well-known trainer Leslie Nelson! Easy to follow steps to train your dog to come when it really counts, in an emergency. Learn how to build trust and ensure safety. Once trained, the recall works immediately in any situation, no matter what your dog is doing. He doesn’t think, he doesn’t decide, he just comes to you. Contains chapters for difficult to train breeds and for trainers to use in class.

What reviewers are saying…

DOG FANCY
“Offers easy-to-follow steps to teach your dog to come when called. This DVD teaches dog owners and trainers surefire ways to train a dog to come in a any situation, removing the fear of your dog running into the street and traffic. Includes tips on building a trusting relationship with your dog, how to apply the principles of positive dog training, and techniques to reinforce what you’ve taught.”

DOG WORLD
“To successfully have a dog come when called in the face of distraction is one of the most important skills any dog owner can have. Professional dog trainers around the country use Leslie Nelson’s DVD. Nelson’s personal challenge was training her sighthounds to come when called from great distances with great distractions. This program works.” Terry Long

DOGS IN CANADA
“Leslie Nelson, a well-known trainer and instructor throughout North America, trains Whippets and Afghan Hounds. Her DVD… takes you through the steps of teaching your dog to come to you under any circumstances, using operant conditioning. One of my favorite things about the DVD is that she doesn’t bog you down with scientific jargon. She tells you what the skill is called, why it works, and how to do it… Nelson introduces each step and does a brief demo with a variety of dogs, reminding you of what the step is called and of your goal… Throughout the DVD, Nelson offers sound advice on what to do if training isn’t progressing as planned. She has some sound suggestions about how to fix problems – whether you have a puppy or an older dog.” Marie Sawford

[Houndhill]

Here’s another good one. The author has Bull Terriers, there is a very cute picture of one jumping on the cover, looks just like, er, what the title says! I believe she is giving a seminar in SC sometime soon, too.

WHEN PIGS FLY - TRAINING SUCCESS WITH IMPOSSIBLE DOGS
by Jane Killion (See other books by author)

 Publisher: Dogwise Publishing

Edition: 2007 Paperback, 198 pages

ISBN: 9781929242443
Item: DTB919
Ships the next business day.
Click here to get the Ebook version

Summary: Some breeds of dogs and mixes have a reputation as impossible to train. Hounds, terriers, and other breeds are often called pig-headed and even untrainable. Learn these When Pigs Fly methods and take advantage of the natural strengths of these independent and intelligent dogs. Help your dog become a wonderful companion or a formidable canine athlete. Clicker and reward-based training that is fun to use.

[threedogpack]

@Houndhill;7264912

Dogwise is a great place to order DVDs and books.

yes it is. Wonderful people, met them several times at the Crown Classic in Cleveland.

REALLY RELIABLE RECALL - TRAIN YOUR DOG TO COME WHEN CALLED… NO MATTER WHAT! DVD
by Leslie Nelson (See other books by author)

I went to a seminar with her once, very nice and she does her stuff with very non traditional dogs too…I believe it was either Afghans or Greyhounds.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7264912]
This is a great DVD, I’ve included some reviews as they address some of the questions raised.

Dogwise is a great place to order DVDs and books.

REALLY RELIABLE RECALL - TRAIN YOUR DOG TO COME WHEN CALLED… NO MATTER WHAT! DVD
by Leslie Nelson (See other books by author)

 Publisher: Healthy Dog Productions

Edition: 2004 DVD
Run Time: 90 Min.
ISBN: 897059001108
Item: DTB810P
Ships the next business day.
Summary: Leslie Nelson’s Really Reliable Recall DVD shows easy to follow steps to train your dog to come when called, especially when it really counts - in an emergency! This dog training DVD also contains chapters focusing on difficult to train breeds as well as chapters that can be used by dog trainers during class instruction.

Video Clip:
Click here to preview! (Video opens in a new window)

Price: $29.95
Expanded Description:
From well-known trainer Leslie Nelson! Easy to follow steps to train your dog to come when it really counts, in an emergency. Learn how to build trust and ensure safety. Once trained, the recall works immediately in any situation, no matter what your dog is doing. He doesn’t think, he doesn’t decide, he just comes to you. Contains chapters for difficult to train breeds and for trainers to use in class.

What reviewers are saying…

DOG FANCY
“Offers easy-to-follow steps to teach your dog to come when called. This DVD teaches dog owners and trainers surefire ways to train a dog to come in a any situation, removing the fear of your dog running into the street and traffic. Includes tips on building a trusting relationship with your dog, how to apply the principles of positive dog training, and techniques to reinforce what you’ve taught.”

DOG WORLD
“To successfully have a dog come when called in the face of distraction is one of the most important skills any dog owner can have. Professional dog trainers around the country use Leslie Nelson’s DVD. Nelson’s personal challenge was training her sighthounds to come when called from great distances with great distractions. This program works.” Terry Long

DOGS IN CANADA
“Leslie Nelson, a well-known trainer and instructor throughout North America, trains Whippets and Afghan Hounds. Her DVD… takes you through the steps of teaching your dog to come to you under any circumstances, using operant conditioning. One of my favorite things about the DVD is that she doesn’t bog you down with scientific jargon. She tells you what the skill is called, why it works, and how to do it… Nelson introduces each step and does a brief demo with a variety of dogs, reminding you of what the step is called and of your goal… Throughout the DVD, Nelson offers sound advice on what to do if training isn’t progressing as planned. She has some sound suggestions about how to fix problems – whether you have a puppy or an older dog.” Marie Sawford[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Has anyone actually watched it? What are her methods?

I’m not too interested in reviews from dog publications…interested more in actual people who have used these methods w/good success.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=vacation1;7264652]

Re: the Koehlers. There are now a lot of dog training books geared to the owner of a dog who is not a food/tennis ball/love-motivated Golden Retriever. You can likely find something that incorporates a positive ethic with an understanding of the more challenging breeds. I’m not anti-Koehler, but their method is quite old at this point - William was training in the 1950s for Disney - and there have been a lot of advances in what we know about dog and human behavior. And there have been relevant changes in society. The Koehler method places huge emphasis on having a dog that’s 110% reliable off-leash. That made much more sense in 1960 than it does today, given the spread of leash laws and dog waste laws.[/QUOTE]

I’m thinking if more folks had trained their dogs to be “110% reliable off leash”, we wouldn’t have ended up with all these leash laws. They came into play because people let their dogs get o/o control so very often.

Again, “new” is not always better… if you look at the way “classical” dressage is taught, you are using a training scale & methods that are often 100 yrs old or more. I agree it’s always interesting to explore newer options, but that doesn’t always mean they are better OR than the old ones should be cast out.

I tried clicker training w/one of my horses and I got far more success and results from 20 mins in a round pen than 3 days of clicker training. Maybe that’s because when a horse is troubled, they aren’t generally food-motivated.

And when I pulled this mare o/o the pasture (away from her herd) she was more concerned about THAT than food. In the round pen I insisted she concentrate on me…and she did.

“Tough love” is certainly not a bad idea in many cases…I sure see alot of spoiled dogs/horses/children these days and I wonder if it’s because we don’t think anything bad should EVER happen to them…NEVER any consequences for harmful actions.

Successful people say over and over again they learned more from their mistakes than they did their successes…I suspect many animals are the same way.

[Arrows_Endure]

For our Koehler loving friend,

Why use old, punishment based methods when there are better ways to teach that don’t use force and discomfort? They take longer to teach, yes, but honestly they make reliable, well trained dogs.

I have boxers and cattle dogs. Both breeds are not particularly well known for being “easy”. Both have minds of their own, are independent, confident dogs who will tell you where to go if they feel the need. None of my dogs have been trained with forced based methods, just clicker/positive reinforcement.

My youngest cattle dog is training for search and rescue. He has a rock solid recall in the face of distractions. We are training a drop on recall right now. We go out in the woods (with deer, pigs, and other things that he’d LOVE to chase), and we search for human remains (yes, he’s training as an HRD dog). He stays on task and if he gets distracted, will call back into work with one word from me. He’s 14 months old right now. In addition to this, he’s learning competitive obedience, directional, and some service dog work to help out with my 96 year old grandfather who lives with us. I have NOT ONCE corrected this dog for doing things wrong, all training is reward based. I’ll add that this is a rescue dog with a huge amount of baggage that we’ve worked around. He resource guards, and is fiercely protective of me. I have taught him that he doesn’t need to do that without once correcting him for doing it. You do not need force with a hard dog.

Izzy is my 3 year old cattle dog/border collie mix. She was feral until she was 12 weeks old. She’s now happy, confident, and very well trained. She does competitive obedience and can work with distractions. She has never been corrected for doing something wrong. When she went through a “I’m going to chase that deer and I don’t care what you say” phase, I went back and trained her recall, gradually adding distractions, until she would call off the deer (or squirrels, or groundhogs) reliably. With no force or corrections.

My boxer is 9 years old and is one of the best dogs as far as obedience and doing what I ask. He also went through a phase where he ran off, and I went back and re-trained his recall using positive methods. Now, he comes when he is called (providing he can hear or see me, he’s going deaf).

You don’t need force. Really. All dogs, even those that aren’t food motivated, have something that motivates them. You (as supposedly the most intelligent member of the team) just need to find out what it is. My young cattle dog will reinforce with food, but honestly prefers to tug or chase a ball. He is ball crazy, and most of his training is done with a toy in plain sight on the ground. When he does what I ask, I release him to play with the toy. It’s called Premack’s principle, and it’s highly successful in training in reliable behavior in the face of distraction. Izzy is food motivated, she doesn’t care about praise or toys. The boxer is the easiest, he’ll take food, or praise, or touching, or a toy. He’s always been fun to train because a rousing “GOOD DOG!” makes him happier than anything in the world. Not all dogs are like that though.

With proper training, I don’t have to have a reward on me to get the dogs to do what I ask. I teach them that the reward will come, we might just have to go get it. With proper training, the “click” or marker because just as rewarding as the reward. It’s a neat little trick, and it’s how you run an agility course without food on you, or how we go searching for 30 minutes to an hour in the woods with distractions and the dog keeps working until he finds what we are looking for. You don’t need force, even for a hard dog. There are better ways to train…

[Kyzteke]

That’s funny…I have 3 heelers myself now and I haven’t found them particularly problematic in terms of recall. Other things…yes…but not recall. They tend to want to stay right near me, in fact. They are actually very easy to train (I’ve found).

I never considered Koehler “cruel”. Maybe it’s a generational thing…you know, back when we weren’t all so touchy-feelie and PC. Discipline is an outdated value, I know (gawd, I’m sounding like my parents now!), but I think it still has it’s place.

None of my dogs were cowed (almost impossible to scare a Bull Terrier) and she would often express herself if she was displeased with me ( if she felt she was not getting the attention she deserved she would pee in my bed!), but in public and with other animals/people they were both 110% reliable.

Different strokes, my friends…different strokes…

[Houndhill]

You know, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about dog training methods. You know what they say, “The only thing any two dog trainers agree on, is what the third is doing wrong”.

Rather than debate the merits of various approaches, let’s give OP some more suggestions about books/other resources that we have found helpful or would recommend, especially those applicable to adult dogs and/or Agility foundations.

So, the Koehler book has been mentioned, has been helpful to some, others have commented, let’s move on.

[Houndhill]

Another good book:

http://www.controlunleashed.net/

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7264771]
I guess I have to ask…what happens when your dog bolts across the street after a (fill in the blank) and a car is coming…and you don’t happen to have your clicker/treat/tug toy or the dog just ate and isn’t hungry? Because most dogs with a high prey drive are going to be totally distracted by something like this…maybe just for afew moments, but it’s still enough to kill.[/QUOTE]

I meant to click Reply/w Quote and I accidentally clicked “like this post.”

What I quoted is the argument I always hear raised between punishment-based and positive-based. In response, I ask, “what happens when your dog bolts across the street after a (fill in the blank) and a car is coming…and you don’t happen to have your leash/e-collar?”

The dog has been trained, prior to this highly distracting moment, to respond. It has been trained in systematically and increasingly difficult scenarios to respond to the same command with the same response regardless of environment or distance. Your Koehler-trained dog does a drop. My clicker-trained dog does a drop.

I prefer the way I went about teaching that drop.

In the Koehler-method and such yank-n-crank, the dog learns by default where NOT to be. Fido is told, “Don’t forge. Don’t lag. Don’t turn. Don’t go wide. Don’t crowd me.” In the clicker-method, Fido is told, “Do walk with your head next to my knee.” Science show teaching “do” is more effective than teaching “don’t”.

Like the OP, I enjoy reading about all kinds of methods. Then I select what I can morally live with and see results from. I hope Kyzteke can also be open to a variety of methods.