Oh, and I love Fenzi. She started as yank-n-crank. Unless you are a youth today, yanking is all we knew. She has transitioned to ONLY positive methods.
THank you for your suggestion to “move on” Houndhill, but I think I’ll ask afew more questions.
One, for example. Virtually NO ONE has a problem w/e-collars. I mean, even devoted dog trainers (clicker folk) say they have their place. So how is shocking a dog better than Koehler? How is that kinder and gentler?
You folks DO realize this makes no sense, right?
not really; ecollars when used properly fall neatly into the clicker paradigm- yes, really. If you have ever studied behavioral modification, or just have read Karen Pyror’s don’t shoot the dog, you understand that there are four ways to modify behavior.
Negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment.
Punishment is the least effective method of modifying behavior, and it has adverse consequences- it tends to “shut down” the dog, which traditional obedience trainers liked, and unfortunately many pet dog owners like it to- the dog doesn’t do much until ordered to do something. Koehler and other traditional training methods (yank n spank) rely ENTIRELY on punishment. The least effective method of modifying behavior.
Reinforcement is the most effective method of modifying behavior.
Clicker training uses positive reinforcement- the dog gets something good in exchange for good behavior.
Ecollars, when used properly (some people do use them to deliver punishment) are using negative reinforcement- the irritating tickle goes away in exchange for good behavior. Prong collars ditto (yes, some people do use them to deliver punishment) the dog stops pulling and the pinch goes away.
The big difference between punishment vs. reinforcement is that reinforcement is empowering- the DOG gets to control what happens to him. He changes his behavior, and what is happening to him immediately changes. He is in control. Negative reinforcement doesn’t “shut down” dogs. It does decreased motivation/drive in comparison to positive reinforcement, but it’s not inhumane and it’s very effective for teaching certain behaviors.
Punishment comes AFTER the dog’s behavior, and there is nothing the dog can do to stop it at that point in time. dog breaks the stay, you punish him. Punishment dis-empowers the dog. The dog has no control over what just happened to him- yes, in FUTURE he might have some control, but not right now. Dogs who are punished a lot tend to stop behaving much at all because it’s safer.
When you’re using an ecollar to deliver negative reinforcement the “shock” isn’t painful at all. It feels like an irritating tickle. Dogs actually have to be taught what it means- how to turn it off-otherwise they tend to start ignoring it. Whereas a hard collar pop is quite painful and can cause physical damage. And is not very effective in comparison to reinforcement for training just about anything.
Another way in which clickers and ecollars are similar is that they both improve timing of feedback and consistency of feedback. Perfect timing and consistency are the most important things in training- The dog gets clicked at the precise moment and the click is always the same, so it’s easy for the dog to figure out what he is supposed to do. Same with the ecollar- dog starts to break stay (butt starts to lift), dog immediately feels tickle until the butt goes back down, the timing is precise and the tickle is always the same. Vs. punishment- you’re usually late in your feedback, and it’s hard to be consistent in your intensity of collar pops or shrieks of NO. Dogs have more trouble figuring out what they are supposed to be doing as a consequence.
If all you want is a dog that briskly obeys a few commands, punishment will achieve the goal; but such dogs shut down and are difficult to teach new things to. If you want a dog to be highly motivated, drivey, and able and willing to learn new things throughout life, you avoid punishment like the plague. If you want to do agility with your dog, I’d strongly suggest not using punishment in your training program.
When pigs fly by Jane Killon is an awesome training book- it’s mostly about agility, but applies to any kind of training.
Let me add some human-centric analogies:
negative reinforcement- that annoying noise that comes on until you fasten your seatbelt.
positive reinforcement- you do good work and you get a bonus.
punishment- the cop stops you and gives you a ticket for speeding. How many of you have continued to speed after being punished for it? most everyone. Now, if cops were out there handing out cash to randomly selected people who aren’t speeding (positive reinforcement) I bet you’d be much more likely to not speed. Or, negative reinforcement- my old car would start to shake violently if we went over 65, so I would quickly decrease my speed in response.
I’m just a spectator in this disagreement but I guarantee a LOT of people have a problem with an e-collar.
And an e-collar isn’t all about SHOCKING the dog. I use it entirely as a tone now… as was mentioned, a lot of people use it as a slight buzz, like a fly caught under the collar. I don’t know anyone that advocated just shocking the crap out of a dog with the collar.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7265499]
THank you for your suggestion to “move on” Houndhill, but I think I’ll ask afew more questions.
One, for example. Virtually NO ONE has a problem w/e-collars. I mean, even devoted dog trainers (clicker folk) say they have their place. So how is shocking a dog better than Koehler? How is that kinder and gentler?
You folks DO realize this makes no sense, right?[/QUOTE]
I don’t know who you have been hanging out with, but virtually all of the resources I posted do not include shock collars in their repoirtaire.
wendy that was a really good post-that cleared up a lot just for me, if nobody else! 
Yikes! I meant “repertoire”! As in, shock collars not a part of their!
Heck, I started as a yank-n-crank trainer. My first dog, a dachshund/jack Russell/beagle mix, was trained through utility, and was one of the first dogs in our area to get a UKC CD when they first allowed mixed breeds to compete. She was 14 at that time, and we got the U-CD and officially retired her. She was trained using a lot of Koehler methods. I learned better ways to train, and if I had trained her using better methods, she would have been a lot better off. I am ashamed to say I taught her to retrieve using an ear pinch, I jerked her for getting out of position on a heel, and every other harsh method I don’t like now. My current dogs are much better off…
I don’t use e-collars. Don’t like 'em, don’t see a need to use them. My ONLY exception to this might be if I need to snake train a dog. I don’t like the method, but if I need a quick way to keep a dog away from poisonous snakes, I would use an e-collar. You see a snake, you get shocked. That’s it. Thankfully, my dogs seem to naturally avoid snakes, so it’s not a decision I’ve had to make.
I love Sue Ailsby Training Levels, and have used them a lot. Karen Overalls relaxation protocol is a great practice for all dogs. Control Unleashed is a good book, but I like the puppy program better than the main book. Any of Susan Garretts books are great. I LOVE Crate Games, it’s great for teaching great crate manners and giving the crate a very high value for the dog. My main goal with new and young dogs is teaching self control, then I add in skills, and the books I mentioned teach a lot of self control to the dog, and give the dogs a choice about how to behave.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;7263974]
Unfortunately, I know of far too many dogs who don’t make the connection and repeatedly make the same error, of moving forward into the collar over and over. According to the author, you then move in the opposite direction, allowing the collar to self correct. What if your dog doesn’t figure that out? You just keep doing it, till the dog does? What is that saying about the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing expecting different results?[/QUOTE]
I’d guess the people in these cases did not do the first 4 days of ground work simply walking on a long line Koehler recommends. No commands, no running, just walking along and stopping periodically, ignoring the dog. After a few days, the dog, relieved of heel, heel, heel, commands, relieved of yanking on a leash, relieved of chatter, has learned without realizing it that he has to go where you quietly go and the only way he knows you’re going is to keep an eye on you.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7265499]
THank you for your suggestion to “move on” Houndhill, but I think I’ll ask afew more questions.
One, for example. Virtually NO ONE has a problem w/e-collars. I mean, even devoted dog trainers (clicker folk) say they have their place. So how is shocking a dog better than Koehler? How is that kinder and gentler?
You folks DO realize this makes no sense, right?[/QUOTE]
All the resources I posted do not advocate the use of shock collars.
What other books since Koehler, published in 1966, would you suggest for OP for her adult dogs, one of which needs Agiligty fundamentals?
Of course, oldies can be goldies…But given the Koehler book, what else that you have read would you recommend?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7264556]
Some of what you say is true, however it IS a lifesaver for many dogs that simply don’t have either 1) a deep desire to please their human as opposed to pleasing themselves and 2) a deep food motivation.[/QUOTE]
You’re right. That was one of Koehler’s points, and you certainly see that today: “Don’t feed your dog before training class so he’s hungry for the treats.”
And yes, Virginia, there are a ton of dogs who don’t particularly care to “always please.”
[QUOTE=Anne FS;7265691]
You’re right. That was one of Koehler’s points, and you certainly see that today: “Don’t feed your dog before training class so he’s hungry for the treats.”
And yes, Virginia, there are a ton of dogs who don’t particularly care to “always please.”[/QUOTE]
I think the clicker training is particularly useful for dogs that don’t want to “always please” (what would that be like?!)
Rewards can be other things than food…play, tug, getting to do whatever they want.
[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7265450]
In the Koehler-method and such yank-n-crank, the dog learns by default where NOT to be.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Arrows Endure;7265318]For our Koehler loving friend,
Why use old, punishment based methods when there are better ways to teach that don’t use force and discomfort?[/QUOTE]
Oh, for god’s sake. Read the damn books. Yank & crank? Punishment based?
The difference between Koehler and other trainers is that Koehler is so freaking patient with making sure dogs understand the concept prior to ANY correction (force) being used.
EVERY person I have ever spoken to who said they tried Koehler and it didn’t work upon questioning turns out they didn’t do it his way at all.
For instance, teaching Sit. Koehler has you gently place the dog in the Sit position a minimum of 10 times - so 20 if 2 training sessions a day - for I think it’s ONE SOLID WEEK.
One week of you saying SIT and gently placing the dog. He says that soon even the most stubborn dog will be “melting out from under your hands,” but guess what? You keep on placing the dog until the word SIT and the action are so much a part of him. Then, AND ONLY THEN, can you say SIT without placing, and if the dog Sits, you praise. If he doesn’t, you correct.
When I’ve asked people about this they say, “Oh, my dog was sitting the first day. I didn’t need to do any of that one week stuff.”
Same with the Down (that was only a few days - as the dogs learn to learn things go quicker for some exercises), the Stay, Retrieving, Jumping…The broad jump, if I recall, is one MONTH over one board.
Patience, patience, patience, is the hallmark of Koehler. He insists that until the dog is absolutely solidly confident of WHAT you want, it is cruel to correct any disobedience.
Most people never have had, and do not have now, the quiet Patience needed to correctly teach the Koehler method, and I mean Bill Koehler, not his son and not somebody with a website saying he’s doing the same thing.
[QUOTE=Anne FS;7265718]
Oh, for god’s sake. Read the damn books. Yank & crank? Punishment based?
The difference between Koehler and other trainers is that Koehler is so freaking patient with making sure dogs understand the concept prior to ANY correction (force) being used.
EVERY person I have ever spoken to who said they tried Koehler and it didn’t work upon questioning turns out they didn’t do it his way at all.
For instance, teaching Sit. Koehler has you gently place the dog in the Sit position a minimum of 10 times - so 20 if 2 training sessions a day - for I think it’s ONE SOLID WEEK.
One week of you saying SIT and gently placing the dog. He says that soon even the most stubborn dog will be “melting out from under your hands,” but guess what? You keep on placing the dog until the word SIT and the action are so much a part of him. Then, AND ONLY THEN, can you say SIT without placing, and if the dog Sits, you praise. If he doesn’t, you correct.
When I’ve asked people about this they say, “Oh, my dog was sitting the first day. I didn’t need to do any of that one week stuff.”
Same with the Down (that was only a few days - as the dogs learn to learn things go quicker for some exercises), the Stay, Retrieving, Jumping…The broad jump, if I recall, is one MONTH over one board.
Patience, patience, patience, is the hallmark of Koehler. He insists that until the dog is absolutely solidly confident of WHAT you want, it is cruel to correct any disobedience.
Most people never have had, and do not have now, the quiet Patience needed to correctly teach the Koehler method, and I mean Bill Koehler, not his son and not somebody with a website saying he’s doing the same thing.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!
I was beginning to think my memory was failing, because all these comments on how “cruel and rough” Koehler was amazed me. I certainly don’t remember it that way at all.
It is always nice if some has actually READ THE BOOK COMPLETELY before deciding how horrid it is. I’m willing to bet that MOST posters are just repeating what their PC dog friends have told them.
[QUOTE=Houndhill;7265589]
I don’t know who you have been hanging out with, but virtually all of the resources I posted do not include shock collars in their repoirtaire.[/QUOTE]
Well, Wendy recommends them, as did 3 other people on that post. And they sell a ZILLION of them, so who the heck is buying them all?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7265833]
Well, Wendy recommends them, as did 3 other people on that post. And they sell a ZILLION of them, so who the heck is buying them all?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know. I know many people use them in the US… They are illegal in the UK, and I believe some other countries.
To each his (and her!) own!
[QUOTE=Houndhill;7265698]
I think the clicker training is particularly useful for dogs that don’t want to “always please” (what would that be like?!)
Rewards can be other things than food…play, tug, getting to do whatever they want.[/QUOTE]
I have to confess I’ve never tried clicker on my current dogs…as I mentioned, in general they are well-behaved enough for my current situation. They don’t chew, get in fights, tear up the house when I’m gone, disappear or not come when they are called. Yes, their recall is not as good as my earlier dogs, but it doesn’t have to be. I’m lucky now that I live on a farm with no cars anywhere even close so the dogs are pretty safe.
However I will the very first to admit that if I tried living with ANY of my current pooches in Los Angeles and had them off leash, they would be dead in less than 1 hr.
BUt, as I mentioned, I HAVE tried clicker training on my horse(s)…following the instructions of one of the first clicker trainers (can’t recall her name, but she started as a dolphin trainer, then moved to dogs & horses). Imean, this was at least 5 years ago, so contrary to those who have said otherwise, I AM always interested in what is new out there in the fields I find appealing.
Now, I never crucify the method, because ANY method is only going to be as good as the person is who is using it, and I know from watching beginner horse people that timing is all, and most people’s timing pretty much sucks. This isn’t something you develop overnight…especially with horses (I think it’s abit easier with dogs). So it could be the fault was with me, but after years of training horses AND dogs, my timing is pretty good…but again, I was working alone, without instruction, so maybe I missed something.
I am not so arrogant that I refuse to believe I could have been the weak link.
But, all that being said, from my (admittedly brief) experiment with clicker training, I found it interesting, but not that effective for horse training. Other do disagree, but that’s what makes the world go 'round, as you said yourself.
However, when it comes to actual, impressive professional horse trainers, clicker training is not widely used, so I lost interest.
Again, as I’ve said repeatedly, Koehler may not be PC these days, but it is NOT cruel and it DOES work…so I guess folks need to decide which they want…something that WORKS (and Anne FS is correct…if you are going to use ANY method, use it precisely the way the instructor says) or something that is the latest trend.
Clicker training has been popular for what? 10 years? Report back in another 50 and lets see how it going…
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7265811]
I’m willing to bet that MOST posters are just repeating what their PC dog friends have told them.[/QUOTE]
Nope, I was not repeating what anyone else said. If you look back through my posts, what I promote is what I know, what I’ve experienced. My experience with Koehler, was this. I was in a class with prongs and a very punishment based trainer who (probably) didn’t read the book. What happened for me, was that my dog totally shut down and quit working for me. Period. With the second dog, we quit at the ear pinch retrieve for her classes and I’ve never gone back.
using food with a clicker has limited scope for horses I think and I’m pretty experienced with c/t. It does work, but I don’t recommend it for anyone except the most experienced trainers who completely understand the 4 quads of behavior and are fluent at fading the clicker & treats quickly.
Again, as I’ve said repeatedly, Koehler may not be PC these days, but it is NOT cruel and it DOES work…so I guess folks need to decide which they want…something that WORKS (and Anne FS is correct…if you are going to use ANY method, use it precisely the way the instructor says) or something that is the latest trend.
for me it is not about being PC. For me, it is the most kind way to get behavior and it’s the most useful. It is also not about being the trendiest, it is about being able to GET THE BEHAVIOR, with the least damage to the dog/human. I’ve dealt with dogs that if you gave them a pop with a prong or a slip collar they’d come up at you.
Clicker training has been popular for what? 10 years? Report back in another 50 and lets see how it going…
once again, I refer you to the trainers at the Fenzi Academy, Michael Ellis and even Ed Frawley. It won’t take 50 years, it’s here and it’s being done, at high levels with high scores.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7265833]
Well, Wendy recommends them, as did 3 other people on that post. And they sell a ZILLION of them, so who the heck is buying them all?[/QUOTE]
My guess would be field trainers who intend to trial at national levels and at distance, and pet dog people who fry their dogs.
