Best dog training books?

if it took a week to train a sit, it’s like thinking a model A can compare to a Ferrari. +R takes far less time.

One week of you saying SIT and gently placing the dog. He says that soon even the most stubborn dog will be “melting out from under your hands,”

unless their oppositional reflex kicks in, then they don’t melt but instead brace.

You keep on placing the dog until the word SIT and the action are so much a part of him. Then, AND ONLY THEN, can you say SIT without placing, and if the dog Sits, you praise. If he doesn’t, you correct.

wait…what was that? Correct? but no yank and praise? So how do you correct it?

[QUOTE=threedogpack;7265851]
Nope, I was not repeating what anyone else said. If you look back through my posts, what I promote is what I know, what I’ve experienced. My experience with Koehler, was this. I was in a class with prongs and a very punishment based trainer who (probably) didn’t read the book. What happened for me, was that my dog totally shut down and quit working for me. Period. With the second dog, we quit at the ear pinch retrieve for her classes and I’ve never gone back.[/QUOTE]

So have you read his books cover to cover? Yes or no? If the answer is “No” (and I can tell it probably is, by your questions) then do yourself a favor and buy a used copy on Amazon.

As you can probably tell, my focus is more on horses than dogs these days…my dogs just get trained by following the older dog’s lead. OTOH, my horses are probably better trained than my dogs these days.

And I can tell you I’ve watched TONS of folks say “Parelli doesn’t work!” or “Natural HOrsemanship doesn’t work” or “Whatever” (pick one) doesn’t work…then, upon carefully questioning, it turns out that either 1) they are using some half-assed version of their own or 2) they are doing it wrong.

So read the book…before you make up your mind completely.

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7265881]
So have you read his books cover to cover? Yes or no?[/QUOTE]

read carefully, my experience was in a class setting. She said she used Koehler. After 2 dogs not “getting it” I quit

why would I do that? I don’t want to read it. And I don’t want to use the method.

I have Koehler’s book right in my hand here, the 1966 edition. As I said, at that time I trained several dogs by this method, very closely followed these methods, did not skip steps.

Stand by my posts, since then, I have found other methods to be better.

…for me. If these methods still work for you, great!

But, OP wants other suggestions! Can we move on?

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7265842]
Yes, I know. I know many people use them in the US… They are illegal in the UK, and I believe some other countries.

To each his (and her!) own![/QUOTE]

I know they’re illegal in Germany yet Germans buy them here all the time and use them.

What if all they did was beep or vibrate? would they lose their stigma? Why not make dialed down versions? The “punishment” aspect would fall out but the “hey you” aspect would be there…

Why not reinvent the remote trainer?

It’s been a long time since I cracked open Koehler’s book, so correct me if I have the wrong person.

Isn’t Koehler the one whose method of teaching a dog not to chew something consists of taping the dog’s jaws shut around whatever object he was inappropriately chewing and making him carry it around for a few hours?

[QUOTE=threedogpack;7265880]
if it took a week to train a sit, it’s like thinking a model A can compare to a Ferrari. +R takes far less time. [/QUOTE]

That’s what I said. Koehler is absolutely reliable, patient training over a period of time. People today want “far less time.” They don’t have the patience for Koehler.

LOL. :smiley: :smiley: You mean all doggy-woggies don’t always want to please? I wonder what that’s like? :wink:

He points out that the preliminary long line work has by this time - about one week in to training - relaxed the dog enough that very few resist though of course some do. Yes, you heard right. You’ve been training your dog about a week on a loose long line before you start teaching Sit. And you first have to pass a distraction test before commencing: You bring your dog “Without making any preliminary turns or corrections…directly to a new temptation, such as a different gate, an open car door, or a cat in a cage. When you reach the point of temptation, stop. If your dog stops and stands as though wondering what you are going to do next, you’ve got the foundation for the next exercise. And what is more, you are getting the authentic kind of obedience where the dog responds reliably without any prelminary warm-up or steadying.”

For the rare resistor, you just keep at it. You may have to position him between you and a wall so he can’t squiggle away, and you may have to hold the leash up and short, but you’ll get there. He does say this: “It is always disagreeable to make a dog uncomfortable when introducing him to a new command, but it is sometimes necessary. Certainly, less harm will result from getting squared away than from trying to pussyfoot around the reality that a dog must eventually face.”

It’s sentences like those that people don’t like. IME it’s mainly because people aren’t patient and quiet in training and they quickly - usually because their dogs have actually trained them - resort to force instead of the long - and slow - patient method.

He also talks a lot - probably from the military background - about how training builds confidence, and that the most confident dogs are not the ones who were trained with “Sit Sit Sit…I said, Sit. SIT! SIT!” and he has the dog’s methods of dissing their owners spot on: the sitting in heel position leaning against your leg, or looking all around with one foot draped over your foot so they don’t have to pay attention to you at all, they’ll feel if you move, etc.

Too long of a post…succinctly - most dogs after the first week of foundation work have quietly learned so much that you’d be amazed how much resistance has been overcome already. But again, you have to do the foundation work.

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7266278]

Too long of a post…succinctly - most dogs after the first week of foundation work have quietly learned so much that you’d be amazed how much resistance has been overcome already. But again, you have to do the foundation work.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

shrug whatever, moving on.

[QUOTE=Mara;7266275]
Isn’t Koehler the one whose method of teaching a dog not to chew something consists of taping the dog’s jaws shut around whatever object he was inappropriately chewing and making him carry it around for a few hours?[/QUOTE]

I looked that one up. Yes, he does. But for an hour, not “a few hours” and again, this is in a specific “problem dog” section - we’re not talking about puppy chewing, but the specific destructive chewer who’s only alternative is “exile.” Before he gets to the - ugh, and I don’t think I could ever tape anything to a dog for a minute let alone an hour - he spends THREE PAGES on before you get to that point, you absolutely must try to determine if the dog has an issue like a mineral deficiency, which people rarely believe is possible but he says is entirely possible, or some issue, something that’s driving him to chew.

He stresses the importance - for 3 pages - about “our obligation” to make absolutely certain there isn’t some reason for the dog chewing, to not “smile pityingly, explaining that your dog gets everything he needs, and read the analysis [of what they get]”, that we must use “humaneness and common sense” to make sure we’re dealing with a destructive chewer who has no possible physical need to chew.

And before even getting to THAT, he spends four paragraphs, including one IN ALL CAPS, saying that before applying any of the specific strong measures in the Problem Dog section, you must first complete the training of your dog, since many behavior problems, including things like chewing, lessen or eliminate with training. But it seems people don’t have the patience any more. They want results NOW.

So Koehler makes all these explanations and caveats and warnings and instructions, but people ignore them entirely to get to the “good parts” to quote, meaning the “bad parts.”

I don’t excuse him for methods I myself think are not acceptable, but in all fairness he is probably the most misquoted and misapplied trainer ever.

What if all they did was beep or vibrate? would they lose their stigma? Why not make dialed down versions? The “punishment” aspect would fall out but the “hey you” aspect would be there…

Why not reinvent the remote trainer?

they have remote collars that only vibrate with no shock already available on the market. I pretty much only use the vibration mode on my collar system, and it works just as well as the low-level electrical stimulation. Trained two dogs to 99% recall without ever touching the estim button.

Who has ever said the Koehler didn’t work? it does, for some breeds of dogs anyway. But most people have abandoned it, and other punishment-based training methods, in favor of reinforcement based methods because they WORK BETTER for ALL breeds of dogs. I don’t know why anyone would bother with it nowadays since we have better training methods available.
And I can assure you there are many dogs who simply crumble or quit when people try to train them using Koehler- why do you think some breeds of dogs have been labeled “stubborn”, or “difficult to train”? because in the past people tried to train them using Koehler methods, and it didn’t work very well. But these same breeds are readily trainable using reinforcement-based methods. I myself, way back when, had a dog completely shut down, lose her natural joyous retrieve, and basically refuse to do anything, as in lie motionless on the ground and refuse to move, when subjected to a Koehler-style class. We walked out, and that was that. Never got the retrieve back- the dog would have a meltdown if you so much as showed her a dumbbell.

One more comment, then I will move on. I find it so typical of COTH that of all the folks on this thread decrying Koehler, only ONE poster (Houndhill) has actually read the book. ONE PERSON, yet you are calling ME close-minded.

Threedogpack tells us how horrid it was, when (again) she not only hasn’t read the book, but doesn’t want to. Close your mind much? Instead, she had a bad experience with some idiot trainer who apparently SAID he used K., but obviously did not.

You know, I took a clinic from a guy who said he worked for Buck Brannaman for 6 years…well, maybe he did, but he sure has heck wasn’t BB.

Houndhill felt that (even though it was extremely effective) it was too rough for his/her dog. Fair enough. I personally was delighted with the results and never felt it was cruel or unfair. So, on this thread we have 3 people who actually read the book and used the method…and 2 of us were happy w/the results.

As the art of critical thinking been totally lost? Seriously guys.

You know, I was never putting down clicker training, I just offered an alternative THAT WORKS, especially for establishing a consistent, reliable recall/stay.

So next time actually do the research and read the book(s) before deciding how horrid something is.

Sheeze…now I remember why I moved so far away from people…

PS Wendy – have YOU read the book?

you also said you didn’t try hard with clicker. Get over yourself and come out of the dark ages. People on this thread have gone over and over why it’s inappropriate and you just can’t let it go. Bill Koehler is dead, therefore we cannot talk to the author. Just because it was the best method at the time, does not mean it should be held as the pinnacle of dog training today.

I know we are really off topic. Maybe this will clear up some of the miscommunication. Some of the posters compete in dog sports so they are seeking a certain picture or style.

The flashy, head-up, driving forward heeling is most readily achieved with reward-based methods.

Punishment-based methods usually create a flatter heel.

In OB, the top players are often Retrievers who tend to me more tolerant of correction. In Agility, the top players are often BCs, Shelties, and sometimes Paps who tend to be less tolerant of correction.

The protection folks are big buyers of the ecollar and still use reward-based methods (balls, tugs, & food) to get incredibly flashy heeling.

[QUOTE=threedogpack;7266776]
you also said you didn’t try hard with clicker. Get over yourself and come out of the dark ages. People on this thread have gone over and over why it’s inappropriate and you just can’t let it go. Bill Koehler is dead, therefore we cannot talk to the author. Just because it was the best method at the time, does not mean it should be held as the pinnacle of dog training today.[/QUOTE]

People who never read the book think it’s inappropriate, including you.

2 o/o 3 people who actually read the book think it worked just great.

To be clear, I’ve read tons of articles on clicker training, but have never tried it on my dogs because I haven’t needed to. So far, the only “training issue” I’ve encountered w/them is their over-active “help” when I’m working w/horses and the desire to follow me everywhere, even when I don’t want them to.

The ODG (Old Dead Guys) of dressage have mostly been dead for 100 yrs or more, yet modern riders STILL use them as a valued resource.

Just because something is older, doesn’t mean it’s worthless.

Just because something is older, doesn’t mean it’s worthless.

true enough, but frankly, in today’s world, Koehler is pretty much worthless. If you do any kind of dog sports today, you’ll get nowhere if you start off teaching basic obedience using Koehler’s methods- his methods shut the dog down, so you won’t have the flash, drive, and motivation to be able to do well in anything (except possibly old-fashioned AKC obedience, and even there, they tend to prefer the flashy dog over the dull plodding dog). There are good solid reasons why most people have moved to clickers, reward-based training, and ecollars.

They work better, and give better results. End of story.

If you just have a pet, and don’t care if the dog is drivey or not, I guess you could get away with using Koehler; but few pet owners are going to want to. Most are quite turned off by the brutality of it, and most don’t want to spend any time training. They want something that can be used to train a young pup in 2 minutes a day, and so they tend to prefer clicker-training, where you CAN actually put a bit of manners and obedience on a pup in only 2 minutes a day.

^^^^ well, it sure wasn’t “worthless” to me, since I was able to live in a major city w/my well-trained, INSTANT recall dogs off leash for 3 years. I really don’t consider that “worthless”.

I can’t imagine anything that would have worked “better” in terms of the results I wanted…end of story.

And, with the popularity of e-collars, I consider Koehler the better, kinder, smarter, CHEAPER course.

Is he as quick? No…but in training, if quickness is one’s goal, you shouldn’t be a trainer…

Oh — Wendy – have you read the book? Or you are just dismissing it because…?

So, how bout them…Redskins/Patriots/Bears?

Sorry, OP. What a mess we’ve made of your thread.