Best dog training books?

Oh — Wendy – have you read the book? Or you are just dismissing it because…?

actually did, once. Mostly I’m dismissing it because I a) tried it on a dog long ago and it absolutely ruined her- didn’t work at all; and b) I’ve watched a number of Koehler trainers teaching classes and the results aren’t very impressive compared to the results trainers who use modern methods get, and c) chokers cause permanent neck damage and I don’t think they should ever be used on a dog.

Ever seen a dog trained via Choose to Heel rather than the brutal yanking method of Koehler method of teaching the heel? You can get a 12 week old puppy glued to your side, intent, focused, in minutes, off leash, even as the “distractor” waves food and toys around.

And most Koehler-type trainers seem to be moving away from the method themselves these days- for example, I know one hard-core person who went to a Denise Fenzi seminar and came back very thoughtful and proceeded to change the way she trained and taught. Too late for her poor shut-down dog who probably suffers from constant neck pain, but maybe the next one will fare better.

[QUOTE=threedogpack;7266286]
:rolleyes:

shrug whatever, moving on.[/QUOTE]

A rather rude and immature response to a thorough explanation of the Koehler method. Is that really necessary?

*disclamer ~ never used the Koehler method myself, although our dog trainer may have borrowed from some aspects of it for all I know. *

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7266909]
So, how bout them…Redskins/Patriots/Bears?

Sorry, OP. What a mess we’ve made of your thread.[/QUOTE]

Ah…don’t sweat it…this IS COTH after all…happens all the time (refer to the Eventing Forum’s ever expanding “Wadded Panty” thread.)

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7267137]
A rather rude and immature response to a thorough explanation of the Koehler method. Is that really necessary?

*disclamer ~ never used the Koehler method myself, although our dog trainer may have borrowed from some aspects of it for all I know. *[/QUOTE]

You DO realize you are defending me, right? I thought you had me on “ignore.”:smiley:

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7265315]
I’m thinking if more folks had trained their dogs to be “110% reliable off leash”, we wouldn’t have ended up with all these leash laws. They came into play because people let their dogs get o/o control so very often.[/QUOTE]

Leash laws began when people became less tolerant of losing their roaming dogs to accidents, and roaming freely 24 hours a day is very different from simply being being off-leash. People didn’t use to walk dogs at all, with or without a leash. They just opened the door and watched Rover run out, not knowing if they’d ever see him again, if he’d kill a neighbor’s dog, if a neighbor would shoot him, etc. You can’t train a dog to be a good roaming dog that never chases kids, never kills cats, etc.

Even if it could be useful with roaming dogs, demanding dog owners do even 90% reliable off-leash training is impractical. It’s extremely difficult to get and endless to keep up.

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7266909]
So, how bout them…Redskins/Patriots/Bears?

Sorry, OP. What a mess we’ve made of your thread.[/QUOTE]

LOL Are you kidding?! This has been a most informative thread for me. I appreciate all opinions, discussion and recommendations! I haven’t gotten through it all quite yet, but will soon - busy week.

…Animal training issues bring out great diversity of thought.:slight_smile:

Thanks everyone.

I have read Koehlers book. As a matter of fact, I have the book on my book shelf. I have read it, I have used his methods, and I have decided there are better ways to do things. I trained my first dog using some of Koehler’s methods, and yes, she was pretty well trained compared to most dogs. She did what I asked, but she wasn’t happy about it. She didn’t enjoy her work, she did it because she had no choice.

I have since learned that those methods aren’t necessary. I don’t have to train my dog using force or correction. I can get BETTER results without pain, without fear, and with enthusiasm and exuberance. Why WOULDN’T I change?

I’m sure if I had to train my Shady dog again, she would be much happier and more willing to work with me if I used the more modern, humane training methods. I know my current dogs are happy that I have converted from force to positive methods. They love what they do, and love going out to work with me. It’s much more fun for me and for them.

[QUOTE=Arrows Endure;7267620]
I have read Koehlers book. As a matter of fact, I have the book on my book shelf. I have read it, I have used his methods, and I have decided there are better ways to do things. I trained my first dog using some of Koehler’s methods, and yes, she was pretty well trained compared to most dogs. She did what I asked, but she wasn’t happy about it. She didn’t enjoy her work, she did it because she had no choice.

I have since learned that those methods aren’t necessary. I don’t have to train my dog using force or correction. I can get BETTER results without pain, without fear, and with enthusiasm and exuberance. Why WOULDN’T I change?

I’m sure if I had to train my Shady dog again, she would be much happier and more willing to work with me if I used the more modern, humane training methods. I know my current dogs are happy that I have converted from force to positive methods. They love what they do, and love going out to work with me. It’s much more fun for me and for them.[/QUOTE]

Very well said, Arrows, thank you.

I just finished Cat Warren’s terrific book about her journey training her cadaver dog, “What The Dog Knows: The Science and Wonder of Working Dogs”. I found it fascinating, and very well written, though it is not a training manual. She is a tenured English prof at NC State, who got into training her GSD to do cadaver searches as a way to channel his high energy, and works with law enforcement as a volunteer with her dog to search for human remains on land and water.

Towards the end of the book, she begins to think of retiring her German Shepherd Dog, Solo, and getting a puppy. On page 270, she writes: "During training one night, I tried to assure Mike [Sgt. Mike Baker, Veteran Durham K9 Unit Trainer] - and myself- that I wouldn’t be as clueless. “I’ll know more with the next one. I won’t make the same mistakes.”

  Mike shook his head.  He knew better.  "If I had every dog in front of me that I'd ever worked with, I'd apologize to each of them."

[QUOTE=Arrows Endure;7267620]
I have since learned that those methods aren’t necessary. I don’t have to train my dog using force or correction. I can get BETTER results without pain, without fear, and with enthusiasm and exuberance. Why WOULDN’T I change?[/QUOTE]

I’d really love to see a working dog perform reliably in all distractions never having once been corrected.

I’d also like to have seen all the people actually training with Koehler who ended up with frightened dogs. I have a very strong feeling that it wasn’t done correctly as IME the Koehler method when done correctly requires less actual “correction” than other methods, simply because of his mind-numbing :smiley: patience and time-put-in in assuring the dog grasps the concept before allowing ANY correction to be issued, and the Koehler method when I’ve used it (haven’t for all my dogs) has always resulted in very confident, happy dogs who enjoy their work. Dogs like when things are clear and really rock out when they do their stuff - it’s like they’re saying I GOT THIS - WATCH ME. Of course I’m super big on the praise and they love it.

But that happens with all kinds of training: most of us don’t do it quite right, which I think is the danger of Koehler. If you’re not going to do it just right, it’s going to be harmful, so the majority of people are better off accepting the less reliable dog.

But most people aren’t training working dogs. I think that’s another issue, and the real issue for training methods. For 99% of us who are just trying to train our house pet we can afford unreliability (Koehler & his supporters would disagree with that statement - for the dog’s sake), but for those of us training working dogs or headstrong “F- you Up Yours!” dogs who need solid training lest they get themselves into serious trouble running after a squirrel into the path of a car or heading into a dog fight, reliability is important. I like the hard heads.

I too like hearing all the book references -have heard elsewhere good recommendations for The Focused Puppy - one can always learning something.

I’d really love to see a working dog perform reliably in all distractions never having once been corrected.

well, my never-ever-corrected dog held a stay at an obedience trial when the ring gate blew down on top of the dogs. All of the other dogs, who had probably been trained using lots of corrections, leapt up and bolted. This same dog also held a stay in rally when a mouse ran across his paws.

Why would corrections be necessary? if you properly proof and motivate the dog, the dog can easily achieve 99% reliability without ever being corrected.

and these dogs:

or headstrong “F- you Up Yours!” dogs who need solid training lest they get themselves into serious trouble running after a squirrel into the path of a car or heading into a dog fight, reliability is important.

are the ones least likely to respond to corrections/force-based training. You try to force them, they just resist even harder. If you instead use motivational training, you enlist them to be on your side, not fight against you. Try reading “when pigs fly”, it talks about these types of dogs and how the best way to train them is entirely force-free.

A lot of working dogs are never corrected. I know someone who trains service dogs, and she never uses corrections, ever, and the dogs go out and work just fine. And most SAR dogs are never corrected these days; they use negative reinforcement via ecollar to proof the obedience, and use nothing but positive reinforcement for the search training.
Ditto hunting dogs- most are initially trained using positive reinforcement, then they are proofed using negative reinforcement using an ecollar. No punishment, no corrections.

I’d also like to have seen all the people actually training with Koehler who ended up with frightened dogs.

I suspect it depends a lot on what breed/ type of dog you have. The traditional working dogs have been bred to be able to withstand force-based training; the others, not so much. They either refuse to cooperate with force, or they crumble under it.

and time-put-in in assuring the dog grasps the concept before allowing ANY correction to be issued,

you’re joking, right? all the initial work with the long line is nothing but harsh physical corrections, some of which can be severe enough to injure or even kill a dog. And then you physically force the dog into various positions, which is, in my observation, very punishing to dogs.

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7267784]
I’d really love to see a working dog perform reliably in all distractions never having once been corrected.

I’d also like to have seen all the people actually training with Koehler who ended up with frightened dogs. I have a very strong feeling that it wasn’t done correctly as IME the Koehler method when done correctly requires less actual “correction” than other methods, simply because of his mind-numbing :smiley: patience and time-put-in in assuring the dog grasps the concept before allowing ANY correction to be issued, and the Koehler method when I’ve used it (haven’t for all my dogs) has always resulted in very confident, happy dogs who enjoy their work. Dogs like when things are clear and really rock out when they do their stuff - it’s like they’re saying I GOT THIS - WATCH ME. Of course I’m super big on the praise and they love it.

But that happens with all kinds of training: most of us don’t do it quite right, which I think is the danger of Koehler. If you’re not going to do it just right, it’s going to be harmful, so the majority of people are better off accepting the less reliable dog.

But most people aren’t training working dogs. I think that’s another issue, and the real issue for training methods. For 99% of us who are just trying to train our house pet we can afford unreliability (Koehler & his supporters would disagree with that statement - for the dog’s sake), but for those of us training working dogs or headstrong “F- you Up Yours!” dogs who need solid training lest they get themselves into serious trouble running after a squirrel into the path of a car or heading into a dog fight, reliability is important. I like the hard heads.

I too like hearing all the book references -have heard elsewhere good recommendations for The Focused Puppy - one can always learning something.[/QUOTE]

Agree. I really don’t know what all these folks were doing to their dogs that made them “shut down” or wreck their neck (!).

I can honestly say that neither of my dogs EVER “shut down” and both were happy working. Well, let me say the GSD was happy…most Bullies are happiest when they are eating, sleeping and breaking wind.

In fact, my GSD loved to work so much I “loaned” him to a friend of mine for 2 wks so her 9 yr old son could show him in the local 4-H show. He did great and they won “Grand Champion” (I still have the pic of him proudly holding his little silver cup).

Once they were solid (and I continued to work them from time to time just like any training program for ANY animal), they held “Down stays” in front of a busy market in a major city for up to an HOUR w/ me o/o sight.

Again, the OP has allowed us to be very tolerant on her thread, but I really do encourage those brave enough to visit Amazon and search for Koehler’s book. THEN read the reviews posted.

Some 35 o/o 50 reviews give it 5 stars and some of the stories are truly amazing. So it’s not “worthless” these days.

For some dogs, it could save their life.

So the next time a trainer “gives up” on your dog and tell you to either get a shock collar of put them down…try Koehler. I think even your dog will agree it’s a far better choice than the suggested alternatives…

ok, but the OP wants to do agility with her dog. Koehler is not going to produce a dog that can do agility. End of story. So why not just shut up about it?

to bring the thread back on topic, if you are interested in agility, you need to go visit Clean Run: https://www.cleanrun.com/

personally, I LOVE the DVDs by Silvia Trkman; as already mentioned, When Pigs Fly, Crate Games, and Susan Salo’s Jumping series are all well-worth looking at. Reading Shaping Success is worth your time.

I did have a Koehler recall training failure, many many years ago, with a Toy Manchester Terrier. I swear, I followed all the steps in the book, very carefully, the light line, the throw chains, the tab, the repetitions…but she was never 100 % reliable off lead. Perhaps a better Koehler trainer could have made it work, but I could not, even with a careful application of those methods. I trained this dog in Novice, Open, and Utility, in addition to any tricks I ever read about. She hated it all.

I can’t say I noticed my dogs were afraid when I was doing the Koehler method, but they sure didn’t like it very much, nor did I. The wolfhound did the “captive lion, humiliated” attitude.

Now, Tori wags her tail and is so excited when we go to the kennel club to train! She loves it! We are partners, she is enjoying it and we both light up with enthusuiasm.

Non-Koehler methods does not neccesarily mean no corrections, BTW. Some mainly positive, clicker-based methods do use some corrections/aversives/negative reinforcement at some point under some circumstances. Some positive reinforcement based “purists” are committed to not using such techniques, others do under certain circumstances. But such aversives are usually balanced by the liberal use of positive reinforcement, such as food or play, or a number of meaningful positive reinforcements. Koehler used verbal praise and petting as positive reinforcement, but very little anything else, and the dogs worked mainly to avoid correction/punishment, IMO.

It is just that the methods used to teach the dog, and the dogs’ motivations, are very different. Koehler was a “you must do it or else” trainer, which may be fine for those dogs, and owners, who can tolerate such methods and prefer them. Some of the less Germanic in temperament do not, though (sorry if this is not PC, but hope you understand what I mean). IMO Koehler would not fare well in today’s obedience competitions, which favor dogs who work with enthusuiasm and happiness and “the utmost in willingness”. “Military precision” is not rewarded unless accompanied by this joyful attitude. Koehler did not really care whether the dogs were enjoying the process, any more than a general would care about what a private thought about following orders. If you just look at the illustrations in the book, perhaps taken from photos, especially of the IW, you will see head down, panting. I do not want my dogs to look like that in the ring, and the early ones I trained with the Koehler method did indeed have this attitude of resigned compliance.

I did not mean for this thread to get into a debate about the merits of various schools of thought in dog training, as I feel if you like Koehler or any other method and wish to use it, go for it, no skin off my nose! But for the OP, with a dog headed for Agility, just wanted her to know that there are other approaches out there that she may wish to explore for her dogs.

I am not aware of any Agility dogs competing today that are trained exclusively by the Koehler method, or for that matter, no one I know who competes today in AKC Obedience uses the Koehler method exclusively. I do go to training seminars and read pretty widely, so I’m not entirely isolated. There may well be someone somewhere, just saying if so, I am not aware of them.

Oh…and I’M being rude!?! Who died and made you Mod? For that matter who the heck made you the font of all knowledge?

For the record, if you will re-read the OP’s post, she is wanting to agility with ONE of her dogs. The other she just wants solid training for.

[QUOTE=wendy;7268187]
ok, but the OP wants to do agility with her dog. Koehler is not going to produce a dog that can do agility. End of story. So why not just shut up about it?[/QUOTE]

ahh, wendy, just about the most bitter person on COH.

We’re talking about it because the very first sentence in the first post is this: “I want some good sources of information on basic training of adult dogs.”

As for Agility, every agility instructor I’ve met has said besides a reliable recall, they find the dogs UNtrained in regulation-style obedience to be easier to train in Agility.

So, wendy, if you don’t like the discussion, don’t read it. Go on back to criticizing divorcing women whose world’s are crumbling around them over on Off Course. Your comments were obviously much appreciated on that thread. :wink:

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7268252]

It is just that the methods used to teach the dog, and the dogs’ motivations, are very different. Koehler was a “you must do it or else” trainer, which may be fine for those dogs, and owners, who can tolerate such methods and prefer them. Some of the less Germanic in temperament do not, though (sorry if this is not PC, but hope you understand what I mean). IMO Koehler would not fare well in today’s obedience competitions, which favor dogs who work with enthusuiasm and happiness and “the utmost in willingness”. “Military precision” is not rewarded unless accompanied by this joyful attitude. [/QUOTE]

And maybe that is the difference…Koehler first trained for the military & police…NOT the obedience ring…which is pretty false, controlled environment.

I will say it ONE MORE TIME, but I don’t think anyone is suggesting it is the ONLY way to train a dog…just like clicker isn’t THE ONLY WAY.

But for all of those who are calling it the next thing to beating your dog with a stick…IME that simply was not true. And for those that actually have decided they DON’T know it all, I urge you again to check the testimonials on Amazon.

For the rest of you, I think we can go no farther…

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7268260]
ahh, wendy, just about the most bitter person on COH.

We’re talking about it because the very first sentence in the first post is this: “I want some good sources of information on basic training of adult dogs.”

As for Agility, every agility instructor I’ve met has said besides a reliable recall, they find the dogs UNtrained in regulation-style obedience to be easier to train in Agility.

So, wendy, if you don’t like the discussion, don’t read it. Go on back to criticizing divorcing women whose world’s are crumbling around them over on Off Course. Your comments were obviously much appreciated on that thread. ;)[/QUOTE]

Oh, thanks for that! Now I get to waste MORE time investigating Off Course…

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7268263]
And maybe that is the difference…Koehler first trained for the military & police…NOT the obedience ring…which is pretty false, controlled environment.

I will say it ONE MORE TIME, but I don’t think anyone is suggesting it is the ONLY way to train a dog…just like clicker isn’t THE ONLY WAY.

But for all of those who are calling it the next thing to beating your dog with a stick…IME that simply was not true. And for those that actually ha
ve decided they DON’T know it all, I urge you again to check the testimonials on Amazon.

For the rest of you, I think we can go no farther…[/QUOTE]

Very good points, all of them.

Very true that the AKC obedience ring is a somewhat rarified atmosphere, with heeling looking like Fred Astaire stylized dance routines. I do sometimes wonder why we play there, after all, if I were serious about winning, I’d have Border Collies, not Irish Wolfhounds! Round peg, square hole! Can’t help it, I am hopelessly addicted, I’m afraid.

At the risk of seeming exceptionally immodest, perhaps this little article I wrote ten years go, which is on the Irish Wolfhound Club of America website, might be helpful. I did not even know much about clickers when I wrote it.

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/training.htm

I’ll do that later. Right now I’m trying to steer the poor OP in the CORRECT direction to train her dogs. She doesn’t even have the dogs yet, and who knows what she might end up wanting to do with them? if you start out training with Koehler-type methods, and decide to move on to do any of the sports, she may never be able to do so successfully because of the baggage Koehler training leaves behind. However, if she starts out with clicker training, she can easily move on to do any sport, or if she decides she doesn’t like her results, she can also move on to doing Koehler if that is what she wants.

I did admit above if all you want is a trained pet, Koehler might be fine for you. But for anything else, it will give poor results. And once you’ve inflicted that kind of training on a dog, it’s very hard to transition over to any other method. We sometimes refer to dogs who are being transitioned over as “cross over dogs”. It’s very sad to try to work with a “cross over” dog. They are terrified of making mistakes and mostly just sit there and look at you blankly. They never recover their drive fully.

LOL, I’ll save you the time: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?418333-I-need-serious-advice-divorce-pending-reducing-herd

There’s the thread. Post #1 explains the disaster that has fallen and Posts #8 and #41 are wendy showing compassion.