Best dog training books?

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=wendy;7268335]
I’ll do that later. Right now I’m trying to steer the poor OP in the CORRECT direction to train her dogs. She doesn’t even have the dogs yet, and who knows what she might end up wanting to do with them? if you start out training with Koehler-type methods, and decide to move on to do any of the sports, she may never be able to do so successfully because of the baggage Koehler training leaves behind. However, if she starts out with clicker training, she can easily move on to do any sport, or if she decides she doesn’t like her results, she can also move on to doing Koehler if that is what she wants.

I did admit above if all you want is a trained pet, Koehler might be fine for you. But for anything else, it will give poor results. And once you’ve inflicted that kind of training on a dog, it’s very hard to transition over to any other method. We sometimes refer to dogs who are being transitioned over as “cross over dogs”. It’s very sad to try to work with a “cross over” dog. They are terrified of making mistakes and mostly just sit there and look at you blankly. They never recover their drive fully.[/QUOTE]

Well, since you basically have never used the system, and several people on the board have and have denied over and over and over again that it made “damaged dogs” then I can’t really take your “advice” to heart.

Again, with one exception (Houndhill) the people who are actually experienced in the method seemed satisfied. And now that I know more about what HH’s goals were (the obedience ring), I can see why she feels that way.

Take a look at guide dogs or police dogs…they don’t zoom around with their wagging tail and smiling faces…that is not their purpose or their job. Sometimes I wonder how they would do in an obedience ring…because a guide dog in harness looks sort of “zombie like” to me. Barely a tail wag (and certainly no ‘prancing’) to be seen. Are they cowed or just concentrating? I’m thinking the later…

Although I had 2 VERY different breeds of dogs, both had ZERO problem with their “drive”…but again, I was not training for a judge to decide if my dog’s heel was correct or if they sat in the quickest time ever.

Instead, I was training to make sure my dogs had the most freedom possible while still being safe.

And I got happy, safe dogs who lived long and spoiled lives while still getting to be dogs.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7268338]
LOL, I’ll save you the time: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?418333-I-need-serious-advice-divorce-pending-reducing-herd

There’s the thread. Post #1 explains the disaster that has fallen and Posts #8 and #41 are wendy showing compassion.[/QUOTE]

Wow…I don’t really think I’ve EVER seen 83 thumbs up on a COTH post!

[Houndhill]

Really, IMHO, OP cannot go wrong with the Sue Aislby books. Great for future agility dog, for family pets, for adults dogs, for dogs in groups, very step by step and clear.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7268328]
Very good points, all of them.

Very true that the AKC obedience ring is a somewhat rarified atmosphere, with heeling looking like Fred Astaire stylized dance routines. I do sometimes wonder why we play there, after all, if I were serious about winning, I’d have Border Collies, not Irish Wolfhounds! Round peg, square hole! Can’t help it, I am hopelessly addicted, I’m afraid.

At the risk of seeming exceptionally immodest, perhaps this little article I wrote ten years go, which is on the Irish Wolfhound Club of America website, might be helpful. I did not even know much about clickers when I wrote it.

http://www.iwclubofamerica.org/training.htm[/QUOTE]

Very interesting article! I like IWs more and more from your description…if they just live alittle longer.

Again, I have far more experience training horses than dogs and not afraid to admit that.

So if I can use the correlation, different disciplines in horsemanship train different ways, depending of the future goals of the rider/trainer.

I’ve seen TONS of horses who are total pros in a competition ring and yet they fall apart out on the trail. ANd, having had experience w/both, I can assure you the cowboy starting a ranch gelding asks different things in a different way that the dressage trainer training a horse for the Olympics.

I haven’t seen an AKC obedience class in a zillion years, but I do remember when they started requiring dogs to “work happy”.

It’s important to realize that training is “school” for any animal and the trainer has every right to insist (if they wish) on the dog’s complete attention. Some dogs give it to without asked. Some (like HH’s dogs & my own Bullies) need to be coaxed. Some need a (metaphorical) knock on the head before they say, “Are you talking to ME?”

Just like people and horses…dogs are all individuals…and any “Teacher” who says there is only one way to teach is usually not very effective.

I remember in Chem.101 I didn’t understand balancing equations (STILL hate it). Just could NOT get it. I kept asking the prof and he just kept repeating the same thing to me over and over again.

Finally, in frustration I went to the learning center, where another prof offered free tutoring. He was great…he approached it a different way; saying "you don’t have to understand the theory…just plug and chug! And that was good enough for me…because my goal was NOT to be a nuclear physicist, but simply to pass the dang class and move on…

Animals (IMHO) are just the same…there is simply no “one sized fits all” and much depends on their personality and what you want them to do (and what THEY want to do…if you want to show Bullies in obedience, expect to have it be an up hill battle).

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7268368]
Well, since you basically have never used the system, and several people on the board have and have denied over and over and over again that it made “damaged dogs” then I can’t really take your “advice” to heart.

Again, with one exception (Houndhill) the people who are actually experienced in the method seemed satisfied. And now that I know more about what HH’s goals were (the obedience ring), I can see why she feels that way.

Take a look at guide dogs or police dogs…they don’t zoom around with their wagging tail and smiling faces…that is not their purpose or their job. Sometimes I wonder how they would do in an obedience ring…

My dogs had ZERO problem with their “drive”…but again, I was not training for a judge to decide if my dog’s heel was correct or if they sat in the quickest time ever.

Instead, I was training to make sure my dogs had the most freedom possible while still being safe.

And I got happy, safe dogs who lived long and spoiled lives while still getting to be dogs.[/QUOTE]

I think that is very legitimate.

I am not knowledgable in all the methods used to train guide dogs for the blind. There are many programs, very likely they use different methods. But one thing I find fascinating, is that these dogs must take the initiative to disobey commands, if it would put their person in danger. Some dogs are not capable of doing this, they cannot blindly obey if it meant leading their person into an elevator shaft or the path of an incoming car. Some dogs flunk out of programs, if they are too obedient, or mindlessly obedient. They must think for themselves and make decisions which may contradict the commands of their owners.

I also am not au courant with K9 or schutzhund trainers, but know that the way they now teach heeling is very different from in the past. Many now use the platform/pivot method, just search on YouTube and you will see what I mean. Many now heel with the, IMO exaggerated style with the nose pointed heavenward. I mean, surely a police dog should look where it is going rather than up?

[Kyzteke]

@Houndhill;7268399

I am not knowledgable in all the methods used to train guide dogs for the blind. There are many programs, very likely they use different methods. But one thing I find fascinating, is that these dogs must take the initiative to disobey commands, if it would put their person in danger. Some dogs are not capable of doing this, they cannot blindly obey if it meant leading their person into an elevator shaft or the path of an incoming car. Some dogs flunk out of programs, if they are too obedient, or mindlessly obedient. They must think for themselves and make decisions which may contradict the commands of their owners.

I can’t speak for all the methods of guide dog training (although one of the people on Amazon who recommended Koehler said she was a guide dog trainer for 20 yrs), but I just finished watching a special on the breeding program.

Even with some 20+ years of a specialized breeding program they said some 50% of the dogs still don’t make the cut.

Also not current w/police dog work. I DO know that the only dog I EVER was afraid to go right up to and pet was a working police dog. I could tell he was serious…and if I wasn’t “his” person or ok’ed by “his person” I was in for BIG trouble.

[Houndhill]

OP, I have not read this book, but it sounds like it might work for you, it is on the Dogwise website:

DOG SPORTS SKILLS, BOOK 1: DEVELOPING ENGAGEMENT AND RELATIONSHIP
by Denise Fenzi and Deborah Jones (See other books by author)

 Publisher: Fenzi Dog Sports Academy

Edition: 2013 Paperback, 146 pages

Item: DTA398
Will Ship on: 11/27/13
Summary: It doesn’t matter what genetic package or temperament your dog is born with; you can bring out the best in your dog!

Price: $24.00
Expanded Description:
This book is the first in a series of books designed for the dog sport enthusiast. This first book will focus on developing a competition foundation based in Engagement and relationship.

It doesn’t matter what genetic package or temperament your dog is born with; you can bring out the best in your dog! To train your dog, you must develop a relationship that encourages a willing and happy attitude with natural focus while eliminating undue stress in both training and competition.

If your goal is to create a world-class performance dog, then this book is for you. We can help you refine your engagement and relationship skills to a higher level.

If you are an instructor who is struggling with your novice students or less focused dogs, then this book is for you. You will find advice on how to work with a range of canine temperaments.

If you have a dog who works well at home but you can’t seem to maintain that connection in public, then this book is for you. You will learn the basics of recognizing stress, paying attention to your dog, and alleviating or minimizing problems so that you can focus on work rather than worry.

Finally, if you simply want to take the dog you have, your personal pet, and enjoy your training at a more fulfilling level, then this book is for you as well! By understanding and applying excellent engagement and relationship building techniques, both you and your canine companion will find more enjoyment in the training process, even if you choose never to step foot inside a competition ring.

The chapters will cover relationship (what it is and how to get it), Stress (recognizing it and techniques for lessening it’s impact), Developing focus, Explaining and evaluating positive methods for getting behaviors, and the use of trick training to develop a handler’s training skills and a dog’s mental and physical flexibility.

[StanB]

If anyone is into e-book, a basic intro to dog training can be found at Kingdom of Pets…

[Houndhill]

Coincidentally, I am attending a Denise Fenzi three day seminar this weekend. It is great, so far the best seminar I have been to. We got a working spot yesterday in “Problem Solving”, I took Tori my young IW, and we had a blast and learned so much.

She has a new book out which I bought, and has lots of material out on YouTube and her website. She also teaches online, I am definitely asking Santa for a video camera.

Her methods work very well on the “Off Brand” obedience breeds. Yesterday we had a beagle, a ridgeback, an Italian greyhound and a wolfhound, all working happily and well.

Tomorrow is “Obility”, apparently some blend of obedience and agility. I saw some
Dogs who had been trained in this and it looks like a fun, effective approach.

[Bicoastal]

Houndhill, I clinic’ed with her in Richmond a few months ago. I did not get to attend the Problem Solving Day (totally missed its advertisement) so I am seeing her again in January.

What was your “problem”? What is your focus? Fenzi’s is obedience and was at an agility-focused venue with a lot of BC owners. I wonder how much she tailors her seminars…

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7315419]
Houndhill, I clinic’ed with her in Richmond a few months ago. I did not get to attend the Problem Solving Day (totally missed its advertisement) so I am seeing her again in January.

What was your “problem”? What is your focus? Fenzi’s is obedience and was at an agility-focused venue with a lot of BC owners. I wonder how much she tailors her seminars…[/QUOTE]

I totally missed the seminar ads too! I was just going out to the DKC building to train as I usually do, twice a week, and found the seminar going on. I had heard about it some time back and meant to register for it, but forgot. I was lucky all the working spots were not filled.

She said she is going to change the name of the “Problem Solving” to “Trainers Request”, it is really whatever you want to work on, but she found that people weren’t signing up because they didn’t exactly feel they had “Problems”! I had no difficulty saying we did have a problem with Tori losing focus sometimes in heeling, staying engaged. Many of the dogs in the seminar had done online classes with her and I thought they were awesome, though some had specific issues. One Yorkie had been attacked on the stays in Open and needed confidence, the IG had been spooked during a stand for exam, several said the dogs worked great in practice but lost it during trials, a couple more had issues like Tori with heeling.

Our focus is Obedience, we cannot do Agility due to an inability to fit through the tire jump and the tunnels are a tight squeeze, Tori is a big leggy Irish Wolfhound bitch. I have issues with IWs on the dog walk, too dangerous IMO if they fall, the old “force= mass x acceleration” problem. I do it with IW puppies but not my adults.

Denise’s techniques are very well suited to Agility, and I thought she was very quick and able to tailor her sessions to the particular team. She was very kind and considerate to dogs and humans alike.

We had one day of “Building Drive and Motivation”, very Agility compatable.

Her new book is called “Dog Sports Skills, Book 1, Developing Engagement & Relationship”. I believe Book 2 is due out pretty soon.

I’ve been to four dog training seminars this year, and have been to many over the years. I got the most out of this one, I was very impressed with how she presented the material, with clarity and humor. She does not use physical corrections, and has OTCHs and also does Schutzhund (or whatever they call it now) with her Tervs. She does set limits for her dogs, and is not bothered by the high drive dogs.

I was also thinking of coming to her Fredricksburg seminar too!

The third day was on “Obility” which is a blend of Obedience and Agility, and I think some of those techniques will be useful for us.

I bet you will enjoy her Fredericksburg seminar and find it useful.

[threedogpack]

I think Denise is an outstanding trainer. I’ve taken some online courses, but not had the opportunity to work with her in person. I’d love to.

[Bicoastal]

Houndhill, I am relieved you enjoyed Fenzi as much as I did/do because I was beginning to worry I bordered on fanatic worshipping! I read her blog (so much free info!), I have her book, I will be attending a second seminar next month.

I’m going to say this here because I think only a few, select people will see it and I want to confess:

I let a trainer compulsion-train my Pap to hold the dumbbell last month. I’ve been trying for a year on my own with no trainer around me knowing how to teach it positively. I tried Sue Ailsby. I tried Denise (didn’t know about Problem Solving Day). I’ve watched all the videos and read all the material I could and I was stuck. For a year.

The compulsion trainer forced the dumbbell in and held his mouth shut. She got results in 15 mins. This is not the way I want to do it. I lost sleep about the method. A few trainers/friends told me that isn’t force fetching. Well it isn’t positive, either.

Now, AFTER that, my agility trainer is willing to help me and she has identified my mistake of clicking the drop and rushing my hands forward.

After a week of positive only, I’m stuck again. For this behavior and this trainer (me) purely positive is a lot harder, confusing, and slower. Still, it is the way I want to train.

I’ll take my lashes.

[Houndhill]

Bicoastal, no lashes whatsoever from here!!

Just {{{hugs}}}!!!

I am sure Denise will be able to help you. She deals with many “crossover” dogs and trainers, so I’m sure will have dealt with these issues. That is just next month, so hang in there!

As you may recall, she is big on not assuming there isn’t a physical reason for things, even if the vet can’t find it. I wonder if it is possible that his mouth or jaws are uncomfortable?

Dogs are amazingly forgiving creatures, I have no doubt that you were way more upset than he was.

It is tough to train on your own. Often some little detail, as you mentioned, can make a big difference. These online classes seem to help many people who are training where there isn’t an instructor to help them in person.

I love Papillions! Such bright little guys! I do envy you how portable they are, too. One little dog had the cutest teeny tiny children’s gloves for the Directed Retrieve, I didn’t even know they made them that little!

So funny that you too were worried about how much you liked DF! I was rather embarrassed when I re-read my post, I don’t usually gush like that. Eew!

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7317007]
As you may recall, she is big on not assuming there isn’t a physical reason for things, even if the vet can’t find it. I wonder if it is possible that his mouth or jaws are uncomfortable?[/QUOTE]

@Houndhill;7317007

I love Papillions! Such bright little guys!

Timber’s mouth is crap. I definitely worry about discomfort. I’ve had an OTCH vet examine his mouth and give her OK. It is still something I think about. He enjoys an occasional chew and his toys and is still, bless him, super eager to pick up the dumbbell. It is the holding part I’m stuck on.

Yes, Denise can help me. The dumbbell is the only step in my training where I have used compulsion. I use an occasional leash tug but that is it.

This compulsion trainer has put several OTCHs on Paps. She believes Paps are manipulative. During this force-hold, she said, “I’m bigger than you.” Both those beliefs reflect a training attitude I wish to avoid. Purely positive is coming around, slowly. Fenzi’s recent post speaks to that. The more available training is compulsion.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7317571]
This compulsion trainer has put several OTCHs on Paps. She believes Paps are manipulative. During this force-hold, she said, “I’m bigger than you.” Both those beliefs reflect a training attitude I wish to avoid. Purely positive is coming around, slowly. Fenzi’s recent post speaks to that. The more available training is compulsion.[/QUOTE]

Awwww, I am so glad for your dogs! My 3 yr old Pap is FAST! So in order to click her hold, I had to first teach her to allow me to place a finger under her chin, and that alone took about a week as she’s a touch-me-not type dog. But once we had that finger rest in place the rest went kinda quickly tho now she will throw the object at me!

[threedogpack]

also, I always backchain a retrieve, rather than try to shape it.

[cookiedog]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7262789]
I want some good sources of information on basic training of adult dogs. I also want some good sources of information on agility training with the basis on the foundations of that training.
If there are books or other that give so fun things to do with dogs - games of some kind - that would be great also.
Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Hi. I’ve never used training books with my dog before, I find them inconvenient and, would only cost me much. I trained him myself with a trusted site, visit --> dogtrainingasleader.com. They have over 250 plus training videos which are updating daily, expert dog trainer advice and some doggy tips. I really love using this ever since before cause all I gotta do is sit back, relax, watch and learn! Plus-- their methods really worked and very effective for my dog. I would highly recommend it. Thumbs up!

[cookiedog]

I’ve never tried books before with my dogs. I used online websites. Try and visit --> www.dogtrainingasleader.com/. Their methods totally worked for my dog. Cheers!

[systematicdog]

This system is used together with treats so that a dog will build a positive association to the sound of the clicker making training with it easier for the dog to catch on to. It does not rely on hitting, yelling or leash jerking.
Canine training programs help dogs know how to live in the world and are one of the most important investments in your dog’s life. Why don’t you look for the right information before you pick any dog training program or any obedience trainer?