Best "shoes" for occasional carriage horse??

[Thomas_1]

The OP might be a new poster but this is someone who is supposedly a professional horse woman.

By that what I mean is she’s running a business selling riding lessons and running a commercial driving business whereby members of the public are going to pay and put their lives and enjoyment in her hands. Whether it’s just a short carriage drive or someones significant VERY special day (wedding). That’s what happens when you charge someone for goods or service.

Those who pay have the right to expect that it’s someone who has a clue and who not only ensures that members of the public are taken care of but that horses are managed according to their needs and requirements.

I’m going to be so bold as to suggest that if the OP is having to post to ask anonymous strangers on the internet how best to get started then she sure as heck isn’t ready yet to charge innocent and naive members of the public for any “expertise” or “service”.

I know that in the USA it’s highly unregulated and no need to evidence competence, expertise, proper equipment, public liability insurance, adequate farriery, effective management of turn out etc as I have to do in the UK.

I also understand that there’s a litigation culture. Also quite a bit of controversy and poor perception of the general public with regard to commercial carriage horses.

May be there’s a root cause here and a connection?

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=MySparrow;4677722]
Interesting discussion, and not entirely OT, because hoof care is so critical to good driving practice.

I’m pretty sure my farrier is the oldest in the state. He still carries and uses a forge for shaping a pre-made shoe, but seldom hot shoes anymore. He’s irascible and opinionated and tough, but he really knows his stuff and he listens. I trust him completely.

We’ve tried Ground Control shoes on my driving horses. The horses moved as though prancing on clouds, but within a couple of cycles their hooves began to flare. I wish there were a shoe that offered the springy resilence of the GC material but would better preserve the integrity of the hoof capsule.

We’ve tried borium tips and wore them off in the first drive. Ditto the expensive borium tipped nails.

We’ve tried boots and I’m afraid I’m just not capable of using them properly. I’ve never been happy with the fit.

So for now it’s steel shoes and studs when needed. And so far so good on turnout. The only time my horses are stalled is at feeding time, and this is specifically so that they don’t waste energy and run risks by squabbling over food. They have free choice hay in the paddock and that also keeps the squabbling to a minimum, as they’re never really hungry.

As for the OP – I know her and she has a lovely, well-managed facility with horses to whom she devotes herself. She is a longtime horsewoman who has hands-on clinic experience with heavy horse driving. The route she proposes to drive is beautiful and not terribly challenging. She has nursed her Percheron gelding back to health and I am confident that they have a great future ahead of them, giving visitors a new and memorable experience. I know she will appreciate the help and support available on this board.[/QUOTE]

Dale,

Going slightly off topic here but you do need to know that the type of shoes used doesn’t cause flaring.

I’ve also wondering about your experience with tungsten road studs. Mine do a lot of mileage and a lot of road work. I’ve never ever had a tunsten road stud wear down or off. Not in 6 or 7 weeks. Certainly not after a single drive.

Photos would be of interest.

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4678177]
Dale,

Going slightly off topic here but you do need to know that the type of shoes used doesn’t cause flaring.

I’ve also wondering about your experience with tungsten road studs. Mine do a lot of mileage and a lot of road work. I’ve never ever had a tunsten road stud wear down or off. Not in 6 or 7 weeks. Certainly not after a single drive.

Photos would be of interest.[/QUOTE]

Thomas, the shoes she names, Ground Contol, can cause flaring, specifically because they are plastic and do not provide support to the hoof.

http://www.plastichorseshoes.com/

We have found the plastic horsehoes do ususally cause flaring, when used continuously. This would be on both light and large horses. This is experience with a wide variety of plastic shoes over many years, in a number of disciplines. The plastic wears fine, but they just are not firm enough for good support under a horse in use, over a longer time.

I think you got her borium tipped nails and the road studs mixed. Not sure what is meant by borium tips though. She did say her steel shoes and studs worked for her driving horses.

I would believe that the boots do not work for her horses because they are not the “ideal hoof shape” which is needed to fit that model. If hoof doesn’t fit the boot, fill the spaces inside, the boots do create problems, rub the horse and sore them up. Some folks are successful in trimming boot, wrapping hoof, modifying the way boot is held on, so they can use boots on their horse in work. Other folks’ horse’s hooves just will NOT fit the boots so they work.

Same “ideal hoof” needed to fit the rubber covered, steel horseshoes, used in city driving on pavement. Any shaping of steel will make the rubber come off. There is NO adjusting the shoe to fit hoof, so hoof is trimmed to fit the shoe, with some resulting horrible looking shoe jobs. You will find some horses with hooves that EXACTLY fit those rubber covered shoes, look terrific! BUT this shoe does NOT slip on pavement, cobbles, wet bricks, cement, so the city horse has excellent footing in any situation. Doesn’t tear up the pavement, leave marks on the road like road studs, borium or
drill-tek (tungsten carbide chips in base metal) do. No marks on the roads makes for happy City Officials. So the horse manager has to choose between several bad choices for the non-ideal hoofed horses, to stay in business safely.

I guess I would be using the safe carriage horse for several drives a week with the carriage, see how he wears his hooves on the road. This also has the benefit of getting him fit for work, conditioned to his harness and I expect his collar. Shoulders need to be toughened or he will scald with a load behind. If he is still thin, best to start with SHORT trips first, maybe not even 30 minutes if that carriage is really that heavy. Then unharness and see what his shoulders look like after an hour or so of harness removal. Scalding is from pressure sores as he pushes into the collar. Any kind of wrinkling under there means he has scalded, and he can’t work for a while. That scalding will peel and often the hair comes off too, after a few days.

Bickmore Gall Salve has always been highly recommended for collar sores.

http://www.bickmore.com/bickmore/Health%20Care/GallSalve.html

A pre-use conditioning from my Grampa, was disolving MUCH table salt in water, brushing it on the shoulders to toughen the skin under collar. Let dry on the horse. Salt will bleach the hair some with repeated use. It helped, but they still often scalded. I know there are a number of other pre-treatments, maybe some Draft folks have other good ideas.

OP must understand that collar horse came with, may not fit well with his present weight changes. She should probably learn how to fit collars, and will have to change them to new sizes, as he gains more weight and is more fit to work. Muscle and fat do not take the same shapes on his body, so each body condition needs a collar to fit him.

My other suggestion would be to have someone knowledgable in carriages or wagons, to go over the mechanics of the carriage. Each wheel needs pulling, greasing of the axle, bearings. Wheels of wood should be seen by a wheelwright to check for soundness. You often can’t tell by looking, if the hidden spoke ends are solid or rotted out. Rubber or steel tire should be checked to make sure it will stay on the felloes (wooden rim) in use. Wheels should be marked to their position on the vehicle, if you have to haul them to a wheelwright. Some designs are not interchangable, or have worn to fit that position.

The fifth-wheel needs greasing, should have the king-pin pulled to check for wear. Maybe replaced with another hardened king-pin if original is showing wear. Check the bolts in singletree for wear, replace as needed. Is singletree cracked or worn around the bolt or the ends? What holds the trace ends on the singletree? Sometimes you have to replace singletrees, they are not safe anymore. Replace the pins/bolts that hold on shafts if worn. Look at the shafts, any leather or patent coverings? Sorry, those covers need to be lifted and wood underneath checked for rot. The covers tend to hold in water, so are a real source of shaft breaking if not checked regularly. If you don’t know how old the shafts are, they probably need replacing for safety sake. Those rotted shafts will break with any sideways pressure in situations where you need them to hold the horse. Horse can’t stop the load with no shaft.

You said carriage had brakes. That should also be checked, make sure the shoes are working on BOTH sides of vehicle, not dirty inside or locked with rust. KNOW that the brakes WILL NOT stop the horse, they are just to help him hold the load when standing or down hill. Especially if you have 6-7 folks riding in the vehicle, that poundage will add up to push on him. I would totally replace all the old brake fluid, to make sure it has not got condensation inside, losing braking effect for you.

None of these jobs are really HARD, but like car upkeep, you need to know what you are doing, learn to see wear or danger signs as you work on all the parts. You want to be driving a well-maintained vehicle, because SURPRISES are ugly in the Driving world. Dependable harness and vehicle, to a nicely trained horse, will keep you ALL safer when out and about.

[Thomas_1]

Ah sorry. I hadn’t realised they weren’t “proper” shoes and were just plastic.

I saw that Dale said that borium tips and borium tipped nails wore off and still don’t understand how even if they’re just used on plastic shoes. But I’m wondering if they maybe just don’t adhere to plastic well? But Dale said they “wore”.

I’m presuming that we’re not divided by a common language and that “borium” is what I think it is? Tungsten carbide. I can only think if it’s wearing that it’s because it’s either not tungsten or not properly applied if it’s to hard face and in sufficient quantity.

I do know from my engineering days that if you apply tungsten to plastic that it can cause plastic deformation and I’m wondering if there’s something about the microstructural relativities with the hardness and strength of the tungsten and the ductile properties used on flexible plastic that mean it’s just not meant to be used with plastic?

[MySparrow]

^ Great advice, Kathy, thanks!!

Edited to add: not sure where he got them, but my farrier found a set of shoes with borium layered on at heels and toes. Gripped well but we wore it off quickly.

[elysian_fields_farm1]

I would like to thank everyone who sent advice and information about alternatives to traditional metal shoes for use when driving a horse on asphalt. I especially thank those who posted links to sites maintained by the different brands of non-traditional shoes. I will visit each and read their info carefully. I had no idea there were so many different ones being made.

To those of you who took my honest questions as an opportunity to snipe at me or make fun of me, I hope you enjoyed yourselves, but you really didn’t help me with my question.

And yes, it was a very strange experience to have to rely on strangers for help with my question, but I wanted to hear from a wide range of people. Frankly I don’t know that many people personally who drive horses-- maybe a handful at most, and some of those don’t go on the road or use shoes at all.

Again, thank you all for taking the time to read my question, and post an opinion. I wish all of you the best as we approach spring-- at least in my part of the world – when we can enjoy riding or driving our horses in mild and hopefully sunny weather.

Here in south Louisiana, spring usually is in full swing by the second week of March. This is the time when most of the azaleas, daffodils, wisteria and many other plants are in full bloom. The Japanese magnolias, redbud, flowering quince and camillias will have almost finished by then. By Mid-May the temps will be near 90 degrees F, and will only climb higher until October brings relief. April and May will bring out the daylillies, Louisiana and other irises, dogwood, bridalwreath and Southern magnolias with their huge creamy white flowers.

Spring is best enjoyed from horseback or buggy seat, IMHO, no matter what kind of shoes your horse wears-- or none at all. Again, thanks everyone for your posts.

[RidingAllDay]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4678420]
Ah sorry. I hadn’t realised they weren’t “proper” shoes and were just plastic.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm composite shoes are proper shoes as much as steel and aluminum are.

They do not in and of themselves cause flaring.

[beanie_boomer]

This was a very interesting discussion for me to read. I am a commercial carriage operator and we currently use the bolt-on Remuda Tires on the front and borium on steel shoes on the back. We drive pure drafts. They are turned out together and we do not have any issues with that.

The city where we drive most frequently requires that we use “rubber” shoes on the front. I like the Remuda system in that the steel can be shaped and then drilled. Our farrier isn’t as picky with the fitting as I would like, but he is reliable and we don’t have a lot of choices. I find the Remudas give great tracton except in the case of snow. I asked the farrier for some borium tipped bolts that we could use in snow conditions if necessary, without the rubber shoes. We have not had any problems with farrier-induced lameness in 8-10 years and he is reliable, so that is worth a lot! We did use the rubber-covered shoes for a short time, but found they were next to impossible to fit to the horse.

Personally, I can’t see using a horse in a commercial setting on pavement without shoes of some sort.

I also really appreciated Kathy’s checklist of things to go over on the carriage from a safety perspective. On the Roberts’ carriages, I would like to second that the wheel bearings be checked carefully.

I also second the comment about the liability insurance. To my mind, driving is far more dangerous than most of the riding that I do. I have also been rear-ended and my carriage totalled and sent to the hospital on a city street. Fortunately passengers, horse, and my dog were unhurt. More fortunately - the driver who hit me was also insured.

Thanks for the discussion!

[RidesAHaflinger]

@RidingAllDay;4679063

Ummmm composite shoes are proper shoes as much as steel and aluminum are.

They do not in and of themselves cause flaring.

I’ve use Ground Control shoes on my Haflinger pair for about 7 years. Not consistently, as they do spend several months barefoot each year. I’ve not had problems with flaring.

One horse has developed a toe crack and on the next shoeing cycle we’re going to try metal shoes with clips, on the theory that the GC shoe, because it is somewhat flexible, is permitting the toe to spread upon impact, further opening the toe crack. I can report back in a few months as to whether this theory is correct for this particular horse. This horse is very tough on his toes- likes to dig and paw at god-knows-what while foraging in the pasture, driving dirt and (you’d think) bacteria into the crack and so it’s been a fight to keep the hoof healthy. We are going to do a soak with White Lightning before applying the metal shoes. In other words, there are other factors at work here besides the choice of shoes.

My other horse does very well in Ground Control shoes and his feet consistently get high marks from my farrier. In general, I like the Ground Control shoes a lot. I think they’re like any other aspect of the horse world- your mileage may vary. :winkgrin:

[Yip]

OP, I really wish you the best for your horse’s needs. If you begin practicing soon, by the time your season begins, you’ll know what’s needed!

I hope you can get over your superstition about mixing shod & unshod horses. I just don’t knwo what else to call it, but it seems obsessive in that it only happened once a long time ago. I was walking on our property 8+ years ago with hub & 2 dogs, all of us in a follow-the-leader line. We took the same exact path through the grass, and I was the only one who got bitten by a loaded-for-bear copperhead. I have work to do and I do it. I’ve never even encountered another copperhead in that 8.5 years, much less get bitten again.

As for my regular farrier-- he is a wonderful farrier-- he mainly does trims because apparently more and more people are going to the barefoot look. He quit hauling a forge around at least 10 years ago because most his customers where not interested in paying for the hot shoes.

My farrier has his forge with him all the time. I don’t know if he hot-shoes anymore. We use off the rack shoes for both mares here, and he shapes each one as needed. I can’t imagine he would stop carrying his forge because he still cares about shaping each shoe to each foot unless the fit is perfect to begin with. He takes his job seriously and doesn’t cut corners, and I’m happy to pay him for his skill since I would never try farriery myself.

[elysian_fields_farm1]

[QUOTE=Yip;4681426]
OP,
I hope you can get over your superstition about mixing shod & unshod horses. I just don’t knwo what else to call it, but it seems obsessive in that it only happened once a long time ago. I was walking on our property 8+ years ago with hub & 2 dogs, all of us in a follow-the-leader line. We took the same exact path through the grass, and I was the only one who got bitten by a loaded-for-bear copperhead. I have work to do and I do it. I’ve never even encountered another copperhead in that 8.5 years, much less get bitten again.

[B]I, too have been bitten by a copperhead about 36 years ago-- it happened in my mother-in-law’s back yard. I was a young adult then, and it didn’t stop me from going in far more likely places for a copperhead to lurk than back yards-- like woods and such.

As for my “superstition” about mixing shod and unshod horses-- well I have through the years seen other peoples’ horses kicked and injured – some pretty seriously by shod horses, a couple were put down later — one died from a kick to the head-- pow–just like that-- but just none of mine.

I credit my good fortune to my practice of never putting shod horses out with unshod or even other shod horses. It has worked thus far-- I have not lost a horse to a broken leg or any other injury caused by a kick since I’ve owned my own – almost 30 years now. I also have been kicked a couple of times myself, but never by a shod horse-- and the kicks didn’t do any permanent damage. “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.”

Thanks for your concern, but I think I will just continue to give in to my obsession.:lol::lol:[/B]

[system]

An excellent shoe for road use on carriage horses are borium (drill-tek) treated shoes with a bead on the toe and a spot on each heel. I use these shoes on a daily basis in the Mennonite communities of the Shenandoah valley as a farrier. They provide excellent traction and prolong shoe life. Typically a horse can easily go 200-300 miles on shoes that are reset regularly before needing replaced. The Blacksmith Shop in Bridgewater, VA (www.theblacksmithshop.net) is an excellent source for guaranteed borium shoes especially if your farrier is not equipped t apply borium. Good Luck!