Best teacher of vacquero?

[jody_jaffe]

I’m a total believer in the methods of the great vacquero trainers. Their horses are everything I would want my horse to be.

However, I have audited and attended several sessions by the greats and been dissappointed by their teaching skills. One clinician started the three day session this way, “Any questions?” There was no real teaching of any kind, the small ring was packed with too many horses (close to 20), several people couldnt control their horses and kept falling off or running into others. The only thing I leanred from that weekend was to never attend another until I found out who really teaches during a clinic.

Another clinic, riders sat on their horses for 1.5 hours while the clinician told very entertaining stories about the horrors of non Vacquero horse training. he was right in everything he said, but that wasn’t really teaching his riders anything. And then when he did have them do a exercise, he rarely commented, even when they were doing it so wrong, that I could tell. And I admittedly know not much about this method.

Yes, I come from hunter land where clinicians are a lot more verbal and can go the other way, micro managing every step. But Im also a teacher myself and know what makes a good one. Haven’t found that yet in the Vacquero world.

So which Vacquero clinician also has some real teaching skills?
Thanks.

[NoSuchPerson]

I have no personal knowledge of him, but I have read a couple of articles about Mike Bridges http://www.mikebridges.net/. Is he one of the clinicians you’ve seen?

[ezduzit]

I think you’re finding out that the core to a “good teacher” is how YOU learn. And obviously styles you’ve seen so far don’t measure up.

I think the only way to find a teacher that you can relate to is to go to as many different clinics as you can. Also, face the idea that while many people can ‘do’, hardly anyone can teach.

If I were at a clinic and the first statement was “any questions” I would get the ball rolling with a question. He probably wanted to allow the auditors to direct his teaching in a ‘give them what they want’ format rather than ‘here’s my agenda’.

I learn best from watching and listening but not WHILE I’m doing. Lessons on horseback are very hard for me. That’s not how I learn best. I’m more of a need-to-know-basis learner.

It’s important for you to know how you learn best.

[Pocket_Pony]

I think ezduzit has a very good point. I went to the Buck Brannaman clinic a few weeks ago and participated in the FH group. Based on all of your clinic explanations above, all of those clinics could have been Buck’s. He starts of with “any questions?” and from there we moved into an hour-long Q/A and storytelling session. While mounted, I received no instruction from him.

I grew up in h/j barns and then did eventing and then dressage where I was micro-managed to the nth degree. While at a certain time in my life, constant feedback from a trainer was important, I’m at a point now where in order to develop and increased amount of feel, I need to listen to the horse. So I appreciated being shown an exercise, told what we’d be doing, and then being left alone to experiment on my own unless I have further questions on what I might be doing wrong.

In Buck’s clinic, the stories are lessons in disguise. The questions shape the day and also most of them have a similar answer so it is a chance to share how the information and approach fits various scenarios. The riding around without receiving constant chatter is a chance for you and your horse to really be tuned in to each other and work on your feel and noticing the horse’s response (unless someone is out of control, which he would address).

But again, it depends on your expectations going in. So ask yourself what your expectations are. Can you look back on each of those clinics and realize lessons that were learned even if they weren’t explicitly laid out as lessons? Can you look back and realized you learned something by watching someone else go through something with their horse? If you expect to have individualized attention then the clinic-type situation might not be what you need and you might need to seek out individual instruction.

Until now I have been a private lesson person and actually until April had never been in a clinic situation. But it is exactly what I need to work on with my horse (being in a group and paying attention to ME, not everything else going on) so clinics are the perfect way for me to get that type of exposure. Sometimes it might not even be about the specific exercises (although they are obviously a tool), but the environment you’re in and how you work through it.

[Pocket_Pony]

@jody jaffe;6997415

There was no real teaching of any kind. . .

Sorry, I’m not good at multi-quoting. I just wanted to address a couple more of your comments. Don’t assume that because it isn’t your teaching style, that there wasn’t teaching going on. Or, for that matter, that there wasn’t learning going on. Just as there are different learning styles, there are different teaching styles and not everyone approaches a group the same way.

Another clinic, riders sat on their horses for 1.5 hours while the clinician told very entertaining stories about the horrors of non Vacquero horse training. he was right in everything he said, but that wasn’t really teaching his riders anything.

Same comment from me as above. I liked listening to all the stories and I learned a lot from them. Not all lessons are “how-to” lessons about how to disengage the hind end or something like that. From what I’ve read about the vaquero tradition, tradition and respect for tradition are a big part of it. So the stories ARE teaching you something. They are teaching you how to have etiquette and humility and show respect for this approach to horsemanship. That’s just as important as skills.

And then when he did have them do a exercise, he rarely commented, even when they were doing it so wrong, that I could tell. And I admittedly know not much about this method.

Again, here’s an opportunity for you to learn. If you were riding in that group, then you shouldn’t have been paying attention to others and you should be paying attention to your horse and getting your horse “with” you. If you were auditing, then there was an opportunity for you to watch others with bad timing and recognize it for what it was and learn what good timing would be. Again, because you saw one thing doesn’t mean that’s what was really happening. If you were my friend and came to the clinic I did to watch me and my horse you might thing “how boring, they are just doing circles on a lead rope and why is she doing xxx exercise wrong?” And what I’m experiencing is “wow, it is really hard to do this exercise even though Buck makes it look so easy. Well, the last circle was better. Wait, this one was bad. Why was the first one better? Let me try something else. Nope, that didn’t work. I’ll try again. Better. So let me change my timing here. Yes, that was good, I’ll try again to see if that was it. Yes! Ok, great!” All of that was running through my head all day long. But if you were watching, you would just see me going in circles, sometimes getting it wrong and sometimes getting it right.

It is about more than just the hard skills of, let’s say, a posting trot where you rise with this leg and sit with that leg. There’s so much nuance and thinking and experimenting to try to get that feel and get with your horse that it really requires full attention and concentration.

Anyway, I could go on and on and on because I learned so much from the clinic I attended. I hope that you find a clinic experience that you like, and I encourage you to go in with a different mindset that allows you to look at the situation not just on the surface, but the hidden treasures of learning - it is fun and kind of feels like you’re in on a secret if you get it.

But, that’s only my experience from a Buck clinic, so I can’t comment on anyone else and I’m sure there are a lot of crappy clinicians out there just as in any other discipline.

Best of luck to you!

[OneGrayPony]

Pocket Pony…thank you. In there was an epiphany that I needed.

[Bluey]

Coming from an european tradition of teaching and learning, so much I see in western clinicians is that they are flying by the seat of the pants, don’t have that much of any technique, it is improvisation at it’s best.

The trouble with much of that, without a good, solid base of plain horsemanship, you have people like certain top clinician, that opens his RFD-TV show spinning his horse like a coke bottle, in the middle, must not have heard you need to help your horse spin over it’s hind end, or all the horse is doing is scooting around discombobulated.

There is a reason so many of those clinicians have a gift of gab to help them wing it, because they will have a hard time competing against those that have a good basic understanding of the centuries of information out there about what we do and why with our horses.

While you can do much with just plain experience working with horses, if you don’t have any basics of why we do this or that, you just won’t get there but occasionally, by chance.

The really honest top clinicians that went on to compete will tell you how much they learned there, once they were having to do things a certain way and picked judge’s brains continuously to get better and a new world opened for them.

Those are the ones today that do more than just clinics and, with their years of experience around horses, once they learn the more technical parts to training and riding, they can be awesome.

My point, some of those clinicians are not good instructors because they really don’t know that much themselves.

[OneGrayPony]

I don’t think that’s what Pocket Pony is talking about Bluey.

It’s interesting - I had a lot of trainers try to “teach” me through telling me when to move my hand, leg etc while riding. I never really could do that and the lessons wouldn’t stick. And actually, the more I would focus on my right hand (or what have you) the worse it would get.

What was most effective for me was telling me what it should feel like/look like and then letting me go do it. After a few attempts, the trainer that was the most effective for me, would say something along the lines of “did you feel his shoulder drop? Yea? You might want to try x, y, or z”

Other people might have found that approach ineffective, but I learn best by watching/feeling the effect on the horse - not focusing on my right hand or what have you.

Sounds like I’d get a lot out of some of these guys.