TB was instrumental in the development of all warmblood registries. A poster from Europe mentioned up the thread that all German registries accept TBs.
3 Likes
I’m an ammy and I dipped my toe in breeding as an adult. (Side note, my parents bred, raised and started QHs when I was a kid. We usually had 3-6 foals every year and owned a stallion and mares.)
First I bought a lovely KWPN mare bred to do dressage who had one foal on the ground that was a successful hunter. I show hunters so would breed the mare for a hunter prospect. 2 breeding seasons and about $15k later, no foal and vet said it wasn’t worth trying bc the mare’s body told us it was done with babies.
Bought a weanling filly. Highest scoring filly in North America in her inspection year (thankfully accomplished AFTER I bought her). Bred her as a 3yo to a lovely Holsteiner registered stallion who was competing and winning in the hunters upon the recommendation of the breeder I bought her from. Easy to breed and had an uneventful pregnancy. However, ended in fetotomy bc the foal was too big to get out in one piece.
I sought to do a similar thing to what you are discussing doing (but in the hunter market) and I had a lot of experience breeding, raising and handling young horses behind me. I spent about $30k (6-8 years ago) to have a dud of a broodmare and almost lose the other mare to a hellacious foaling. For this, and myriad other reasons, it makes sense to go into breeding with the best of the best. The best brain, best conformation, best bloodlines, best soundness etc. that you can possibly afford, and then plan to lose your heart and your money in the process.
I’m in the market again to buy a youngster and I’ll only consider something registered with a reputable registry, with parents that are proven in their discipline and/or amazing bloodlines close-up and that has great conformation, a good brain and nice movement. Thankfully I’ve likely found that local to me from a breeder who puts the blood, sweat and tears into raising very nice jumpers and the occasional hunter.
18 Likes
All registeries accept TB but not all registries accept all TB. There are indeed TB that would not be an asset to a sport horse program. Indeed there are TB that aren’t an asset to a race program either 
Id even guess that if you are shopping for OTTB your nicest available horses are going to be geldings because the nicest mares get kept back for breeding. Obviously the nicest colts get kept as studs, but you only need one stud for dozens of mares, so the mare retention for race breeding is going to go wider.
3 Likes
I was responding to a post from OP wondering why many registries allow TBs and not other breeds (DHH for example).
1 Like
Ah yes. The WB breeds are a mix of older cavalry or harness horse plus TB. They are all based on significant TB blood historically and TB cross reliably well with WB because WB are basically half TB to begin with. Totally different from throwing a random unrelated breed into the mix
2 Likes
It is because TBs bring traits to the table that are desirable in sport horses - including quality of gallop (eventing and jumping) and quality of canter (jumping and dressage). And quality of canter is also important in show hunters. But breeds like DHH have never been bred for quality of gallop or canter and can therefore be a detriment in a sport horse breeding program.
11 Likes
French Anglo Arabs, as well as the F1 Anglo stallions Ramzes and Burnus - also significantly influenced modern warmbloods. Especially Selle Francais and Trakehner.
3 Likes
Every four years there is one individual gold medal and three team gold medals to be won in Olympic Dressage (Show Jumping, Eventing, Vaulting). Every year there are hundreds of thousands of horses born all around the world. Given how few reach the very tip top, what is the main market for all the remaining horses? Is there really a significant difference between a top competition horse versus a really excellent amateur horse? Rather than breeding per se, is the difference down to variables such as personal preference, rider competence, the quality of horse care, available financial resources and even a hefty dose of luck?
In Eventing, there are many stories of Pony Club horses exceeding all initial expectations as a child’s ride by going on to Senior Championship and even Olympic medals. Portersize Just A Jiff, a 15.2 ISH, took Irish rider Camilla Speirs from Pony Club to the Olympics before finally retiring at the age of 18 after a 14 year career.
5 Likes
Intresting. Around here Bellissimos are called “not easy to handle”. 
It’s so wild in breeding. If you ask long enough you get every opinion on every stud
1 Like
To me all this “breeding crosses for dressage/jumping/hunter etc” is so weird. I get, that this seems to be done in the US quite often. But it’s so uncommon over here and tbh everybody, that would start breeding “wild” crosses of anything wouldn’t be considered a breeder or would get any paperwork over here. Breeding is regulated much more here. And minds are less open to anything apart from “full pedigree”.
This goes as far as me wanting to breed my hanoverian mare (full pedigree, licensed mare, already has 2 offspring, of which one of them is competing at FEI level (junior european championships, danish championships etc.) ) is considered an bad idea, cause “you’re not an experienced breeder”, “your mare has confirmation flaws”, “your mare is to small (157cm) to breed a proper WB”, “your mare isn’t rideable enough”, “your mare doesn’t have a proper competition record”… and so on… So this is reality over here.
Not to judge anyhting done in the US or the crosses that are bred. But it’s “wild” from my perspective, that this is even done Because over here even trying to breed a full paper WB to a full paper WB is getting sideeyes, if you have never bred before or your mare might happen to not be perfect 
Plus I wouldn’t even know where to register my foals. Cause there’s no registry for such breeds. And not to register the foals and not get full papers is… Nobody does this and people that breed with unregistered horses and without full papers… are considered… I struggle to find the right words. But it’s seen as the same level as puppy mills in eastern europe, where lots of puppys are bred but not cared for.
Again, I don’t want to offend anybody, because culture is different. And all the above doesn’t state MY opinion. I just wrote, what’s common over here. So for me this whole thread was weird to begin with, because if I wanna breed a jumper, I buy a WB mare with showjumping lines and breed her to a WB stud with show jumping lines. Same goes with dressage or eventing. Nobody over here would ever consider doing something else than using WBs for breeding horses for the english riding market. Apart from TBs of course. But those are not used in dressage either. Eventing will use TBs to produce great eventers. Some showjumpers have high levels of TB in them. But dressage “half bloods” don’t exist.
So any programme using anything different than WBs to create horses for “WB competitions” or “WB purposes” is really off to me. I know, this is just cultural difference and I know there are a lot of QHs or Standardbreds or whatever (Dutch Harness Horse e.g.) , that will do a decent job. But it’s nothing anybody would consider to do as breeding programm. So I struggle to understand at all, why the OP is now frustrated by the comments in here…If she had posted her idea in a german or european forum, she would have gotten way “worse” responses… Not that any responses where actually bad.
11 Likes
Everything horse in the US is way less regulated than Germany. You don’t need any credentials to set up as a trainer, breeder, groom, barn owner etc. The country is huge, the population is huge, and until the 1940s people were still using work horses (my grandparents farmed with horses in the 1930s. Cattle ranchers worked exclusively with horses into the 197Os and even now need them for some terrains. Horses in general were not prestigious or aristocratic, and folks who couldn’t manage a horse would farm with mules. Horses still run feral in the West, and until protections went in, were a reliable reserve of using horses of you could round up some young stock and tame them.
This is all to say that there are no regulations on breeding directions at a governmental level, and with such a variety of breeds there could be none.
The only regulations that exist are within breed registries. The European WB registries have NA affiliates. My understanding is they are a bit more open than their German counterparts but they are the only registries that actually inspect before registering. Now however anyone can start a new registry or a new “breed” in horses, cats, dogs, and see if it gets traction.
Also WB are a very small part of the NA horse population.
I expect OP would get side-eye if they took their plans to a real coherent quality WB breeder in NA.
But there aren’t nearly enough WB in NA to meet the demand to be the only English Sport Horse, and scarcity means higher cost. The OTTB remains the bargain choice of trainers who want an affordable sport horse, and are desirable in eventing.
3 Likes
We edited the new title of the thread and advise the OP to change her thread subscriptions/notifications if no longer interested in the feedback received in this topic.
18 Likes
Frankly, I’m disappointed that you didn’t rename it “The heated kitchen”
9 Likes
Not necessarily. TB colts are often kept intact for racing if they are manageable, and they can be very useful for sport breeding.
3 Likes
I think that @thereadinghorse is aware of this. Their post makes it clear. They know how it works here, they just don’t understand why we breed this way.
At the same time, there are Irish breeders who decry the introduction of WBs into the ISH breed to make them more marketable… so…
Anyway. Given my experiences with WBs, I wouldn’t want one. For one, they are too big. I am 5’ 1 1/2" (156 cm). I like smaller horses and large ponies, 14 to 15 hands. I’ve seen those huge horses get soundness issues related to their size. Then again, I am the smurfiest of smurfs, and unlikely to ever show in a recognized show again. As I have said before, the top performance breeders’ culls are highly unlikely to be suitable for me.
7 Likes
Well, if you can’t play with the big dogs, stay on the porch with the puppies.
COTH is known for a lot of things, but it is not known for people who do not tell the truth. The collective experience represented here should give you a pretty fair assessment of whether or not your ideas are solid or not.
If you want to be patted on the back, even if what you are proposing makes absolutely no sense, do not expect to get that here!
15 Likes
They vary so much in size. Mine is 157cm. And there are lot that are below 165cm. And they also vary in character. I know a lot of very nice and ammy friendly ones. In general WBs are said to be the most ammy friendly breed(s) we have. At least this is common opinion. it’s again a huge cultural difference. We consider our WBs the most basic, usable, versatile and easiest breed(s) whereas in the US they seem to be some kind of fancy, pricey, high level riding horses. That’s really interesting.
If someone is considering buying a horse and he rides english (western is a minority here), you will generally recommend a WB. I can not think of a purpose (apart from only hacking) where a WB wouldn’t be suitable. Of course you have to choose wisely, but the variety of different WBs is so wide, that it is possible to find a suitable one amongst them.
My mare is bomb proof, does low level eventing, low level show jumping, could do low level dressage if it wasn’t for me 
and does hacking, has fun in some working equitation, goes on trail rides, does some ridden games and is in general a real nice horse to have and work with. Although being half sister to Michael Jungs fischerChipmunk FRH. Sport pedigree and ammy friendliness does not exclude each other. And I trained her myself. Starting as a very keen 19yo girl Okay, admittedly some things wenz wrong, but now 10 years later she’s the best companion I could ever imagine.
8 Likes
This is true for a LOT of people. You have Morgans, IIRC - a spectacular breed that is extremely hardy and versatile and usually the perfect size for shorter people. Same goes for Arabs and a good percentage of QHs.
@thereadinghorse I know you don’t understand why someone would want a horse other than a WB for English disciplines. Since you don’t have a ton of other options where you are, that makes sense! But be careful you don’t start disparaging those who choose a different path for good reasons - I don’t think you’re meaning to but your posts are starting to come off that way.
9 Likes
I read the post you’re responding to and immediately thought a few Irish breeders would like to have a word. Not that the Irish know anything about breeding sporthorses, lol.
6 Likes
