Thank you for weighing in on this thread.
Just to be clear, given earlier comments by one poster, can you verify that the following is accurate- or correct anything I state wrong…
KWPN accepts ASB mares for harness breeding after inspection… but KWPN accepts TB mares for riding type breeding without inspection?
Both ASB mares and TB mares are eligible to have registerable foals without inspection. However, the foals can be inspected and the stallion they are bred to will determine what book the offspring will end up in.
I’ve personally never seen an ASB mare inspected, so I’m not entirely sure if it’s possible or not, but the KWPN does not inspect TB mares.
Thank you… I’m confused again though. So here is an hypothetical example …
Let’s say I breed an ASB mare to a KWPN licensed and approved jumper stallion. The mare is not inspected. Which foalbook would the baby be recorded in?
And… by way of comparison…
Let’s say I breed a TB mare to a KWPN licensed and approved jumper stallion. The mare is not inspected. Which foalbook would the baby be recorded in?
As far as semen costs, we learned on the DHH trainwreck thread that the vet costs can be really high especially if you do ICSI. It lets you get more embryos out of one dose and use more degraded semen but really raises the cost
If an ASB mare were bred to a jumper stallion, that foal would be Register B. If the ASB mare were bred to a KWPN approved TP stallion, the foal would be foalbook. So Saddlebred mares are only considered Erkend when they’re bred in the harness breeding direction.
If a TB mare were bred to an approved jumper stallion, that foal would be Foalbook.
Right, and again, I think there’s a lot of lost in translation here - to quote another poster
Often, the world beater is a different beast than the amateur medal horse. Not always, but often.
While stud fee wasn’t really to focus, the OP made this somewhat about costs because a chunk of their post was about producing lower cost horses for the average amateur - “affordable” was thrown around. And it was said repeatedly that the reason there aren’t a ton of breeders putting ammy friendly horses on the ground (for prices the average person might not cringe to spend) is BECAUSE it costs approximately the same to produce a $9k foal as it does a $25k foal. That is, unless you’re doing something like pasture breeding or raising a band on low cost acreage.
There’s multiple topics being discussed as one here, made muddier because OP went off the rails a bit and deleted the first post.
I don’t buy cheaper semen because I am “just” producing horses that are safe for amateurs in addition to being talented, athletic, and attractive. I breed to the stallion that is the best match for my mare and goals, and that’s rarely a cheap horse.
Again, I have HIGHER standards for the disposition, character, and ease of management than most “Olympic level aspirations only” breeders. I’ve seen what most in the sport horse world, including - no offense - most COTHers, consider to be a good disposition. That definition doesn’t meet my standards for MY goals and program. I will not compromise on this particular attribute when making breeding choices. Whereas, I will make small concessions on pretty much all others. Those breeding for the tippy top are just the opposite - there is no room for compromise on brilliance or talent, but they aren’t as concerned as I am about character. Which makes sense, given our different goals.
Find me a horse with ZERO flaws of any sort, and then I’ll believe that one can select breeding stock that is perfect in every single way.
Ditto this x100.
stands up and applauds
Thank you! That really helps clarify it 
That semen she was using was practically free. Her semen costs were nothing, her vet costs were likely very high. The rest of it was probably pretty inexpensive considering she didn’t even come close to properly caring for any of them but I really don’t think she should be used as a benchmark for anything except maybe what not to do.
I’ve dipped my toe into this thread a couple times (before it turned south), only to walk away.
But something that always bothers me on these threads is how so many of the participants act like the official gatekeepers of breeding.
Sure, we’ve had our share of whacko breeders on this forum over the decades. But I feel like most people seeking out info on a COTH sporthorse breeding forum these days aren’t trying to live out their Black Beauty fantasies. Just because crappy BYBs exist doesn’t automatically mean a new breeder will become one.
Also, there is no such thing as the perfect horse. One person’s ideal horse is going to be considered subpar for someone else’s purposes.
Lastly, performance isn’t the only measure of “the best.” Horses can have attributes that make them worthy of reproduction even if they aren’t leading performance or breeding rankings. It all depends on your breeding goals.
If COTH was allowed to regulate horse breeding, there would be no horses left on the planet because nothing would be good enough for some of the posters here (many of whom have zero breeding experience, just a lot of opinions).
/soapbox
Well OP got a range of responses from successful pro WB breeders, succesful Welsh and ASB breeders, and ammie breeders, as well as those of us who have watched back.yard breeder trainwrecks unfold in real life. There was agreement that the ammy friendly dressage horse was a real need. There was disagreement over whether breeding DHH which might or might not be also KWPN was the best route. My big point was do a business plan and decide if you are doing this as a business or a luxury hobby. Even I didn’t say “don’t breed ammie friendly dressage horses.” I just said be financially careful and define your goals.
.
Agreed, the difference is marginal, so really for anyone trying to breed affordable amateur horses at scale they likely have to be running their own stallion in a pasture of mares in a loc area. Now the cost of purchasing that stallion likely has more of an implication on quality, especially if that’s determined by show records and accomplishments.
A friend of mine owns a very lovely mare from one such program. Quintessential amateur horse, goes on trail rides, the local h/j shows, local dressage shows etc. The breeders have a herd of mares, mostly draft, qh, tb types. They have a handful of warmblood stallions that they no doubt pasture breed. None of the stock have any show records to my knowledge. Yet their program seems to have a very dedicated following of amateurs across the country and they seem to sell most of their babies in utero or as weanlings or yearlings. They have a reputation for producing good minded amateur horses at an affordable price and there is clearly a demand.
Is this place in Canada? If so, I know a few of their babies. While physical type is quite varied (across the farm, the mares are pretty consistent with what their babies look like), they’ve all been great minded and sturdy things. I considered one for myself but chose something older due to the fact that I have to board. Clearly it can work, if the keeping costs are low enough.
I’m behind again, but I love that you threw out those two names as examples of high achieving warmblood stallions who were noted for their steady temperaments. Interestingly, Romanov’s sireline is Rohdiamant v. Rubinstein I, and that line is known for its propensity to produce horses with gentle and kind natures who were quite generous under saddle. Even more interesting - Rubinstein I was a grandson (through his sire) of Romadour II - and Romadour II is the maternal grandsire of Belissimo.M. Was that where the “good natured gene” comes from?
Yes, the Canadian prairies.
TB was instrumental in the development of all warmblood registries. A poster from Europe mentioned up the thread that all German registries accept TBs.
I’m an ammy and I dipped my toe in breeding as an adult. (Side note, my parents bred, raised and started QHs when I was a kid. We usually had 3-6 foals every year and owned a stallion and mares.)
First I bought a lovely KWPN mare bred to do dressage who had one foal on the ground that was a successful hunter. I show hunters so would breed the mare for a hunter prospect. 2 breeding seasons and about $15k later, no foal and vet said it wasn’t worth trying bc the mare’s body told us it was done with babies.
Bought a weanling filly. Highest scoring filly in North America in her inspection year (thankfully accomplished AFTER I bought her). Bred her as a 3yo to a lovely Holsteiner registered stallion who was competing and winning in the hunters upon the recommendation of the breeder I bought her from. Easy to breed and had an uneventful pregnancy. However, ended in fetotomy bc the foal was too big to get out in one piece.
I sought to do a similar thing to what you are discussing doing (but in the hunter market) and I had a lot of experience breeding, raising and handling young horses behind me. I spent about $30k (6-8 years ago) to have a dud of a broodmare and almost lose the other mare to a hellacious foaling. For this, and myriad other reasons, it makes sense to go into breeding with the best of the best. The best brain, best conformation, best bloodlines, best soundness etc. that you can possibly afford, and then plan to lose your heart and your money in the process.
I’m in the market again to buy a youngster and I’ll only consider something registered with a reputable registry, with parents that are proven in their discipline and/or amazing bloodlines close-up and that has great conformation, a good brain and nice movement. Thankfully I’ve likely found that local to me from a breeder who puts the blood, sweat and tears into raising very nice jumpers and the occasional hunter.
All registeries accept TB but not all registries accept all TB. There are indeed TB that would not be an asset to a sport horse program. Indeed there are TB that aren’t an asset to a race program either
Id even guess that if you are shopping for OTTB your nicest available horses are going to be geldings because the nicest mares get kept back for breeding. Obviously the nicest colts get kept as studs, but you only need one stud for dozens of mares, so the mare retention for race breeding is going to go wider.
I was responding to a post from OP wondering why many registries allow TBs and not other breeds (DHH for example).
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
