Beware [edit]

[ASBJumper]

What @exvet and @fivestrideline said.

Nobody said anything about producing horses that aren’t capable of upper level sport. But in case you need a more concrete explanation, @Warmblood1, you can (for example) show GP locally and get scores in the low 60s… but that same horse is never going to be competitive internationally and get scores in high 70s. Is that clearer?

The… well… original title of this thread contained the term “world-beaters”. While that may have been slight hyperbole, the point was not lost on most of us (but it seems to have misinterpreted by you and a few others). You can breed a horse that is perfectly capable of upper levels and that is easier to ride, handle and train than a tall, heavy, big-moving Warmblood. It just won’t get the “wow” scores. It’ll get decent scores. And maybe it will have other things that you value in a partner, like an active, inquisitive personality, that is so eager to learn that they will turn themselves inside out trying to predict what you’re going to ask next, that responds with the lightest feathery touch of the leg or seat, that does not need to be ridden with spurs, etc.

I am sorry that you seem to be wringing your hands over what you perceive as a growing anti-Warmblood sentiment, but you need to just accept that there will always be people who are passionate about other breeds and champion their talents and abilities in the Olympic disciplines, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Variety is the spice of life.

Also, European Warmbloods were originally intended for cavalry, not sport. You would do well to remember that. Breeding goals can evolve, Warmbloods don’t have a monopoly on that.

[Warmblood1]

@exvet

I’ll bite and do my best with your question. It’s not that we don’t shoot for the upper levels of a discipline. Mine had/has the talent, mind and athleticism for upper level if we are talking about dressage or CDE on the local, regional, national stage but the reality is that my market did not consist of those people likely to get there but they were decent, dedicated riders who had the dream and wanted a pet/partner that could fit into their life style. My crosses went on to do eventing, working equitation, and CDE as well as dressage. One is likely debuting at PSG next year. I have always used sane, sound and proven lines just not meeting the conventional accepted definition of sport horse. If you look at the breed standard of welsh cobs though you’ll see very strong and distinct parallels to those of specific sport horse registries. Having bred holsteiners and presenting stock for approval prior to having children, I took the concept and did my best to apply it to my chosen breed. I’m 5’2", 60 years old and weigh under 110. My chosen breed is more suitable for my needs and wants (now and then) as are the crosses I produced. I would guess the next question is why not GRPs, but for the sake and sanity of us all, don’t get me started.

This is why I personally do not put a lot of emphasis on breed (not to mention most WB studbooks are open and lines have become homogenous but I distress)… if someone is breeding quality, well conformed, well tempered prospects then they are very likely “upper level” capable and breed can often be irrelevant. And it makes total sense to breed a wonderful and capable horse but not expect the human to reach top levels. That is actually the reality for most.

Anyways, thanks for the explanation and I smiled at the GRP comment.

@fivestrideline

@Warmblood1

if you are breeding horses that are not geared towards the upper levels, what is it that makes them unsuitable for upper levels? Poor conformation? Temperament? Why try to reinvent the wheel? Why not use sane, sound and proven lines and produce upper level talent?

I posted an HJ focused breakdown upthread but this is the gist - a lot of what makes an UL horse (very athletic with a big jump and movement, a good peek, etc), does not make a lower level/amateur friendly ride. A lot of amateurs may want to ride 3-4 days a week, need something they can stay with without riding 8 horses a day, and don’t want to deal with the spook that often makes hunter horses jump so careful. Something a little lazier, less athletic, and content to lope around the 3’ is a different beast than the Performance Hunter, usually.

Moreso, the ones that CAN do both, are no means “affordable”. And that’s really the kicker - what about the capable $20k and under crowd who want a hunter to show Channel II and not die? Is it a feedlot rescue or OTTB, or import for mid fives? It’s not about not breeding “the best” - it’s that “the best” is a different animal for different people.

I can absolutely see what you are saying with jumpers. Jumper lines are jumping like deer now. Dressage is my and OP’s realm where many average moving horses are very much upper level capable though perhaps not “competitive.” However, a lot of the spider movement with WB dressage is training. Horses don’t come this way out of the womb and I think a lot of people don’t understand that.

And to me this seems like an issue with pricing and sellers? Maybe because of people using inappropriate stock, it saturates the market with less than ideal horses and causes the ideal horse’s price to sky rocket. There is an elevated price tag with WB papers and we all know that doesn’t necessarily mean quality.

[Warmblood1]

@ASBJumper

What @exvet and @fivestrideline said.

Nobody said anything about producing horses that aren’t capable of upper level sport. But in case you need a more concrete explanation, @Warmblood1, you can (for example) show GP locally and get scores in the low 60s… but that same horse is never going to be competitive internationally and get scores in high 70s. Get it?

The… well… original title of this thread contained the term “world-beaters”. While that may have been slight hyperbole, the point was not lost on most of us (but it seems to have misinterpreted by you and a few others). You can breed a horse that is perfectly capable of upper levels and that is easier to ride, handle and train than a tall, heavy, big-moving Warmblood. It just won’t get the “wow” scores. It’ll get decent scores. And maybe it will have other things that you value in a partner, like an active, inquisitive personality, that is so eager to learn that they will turn themselves inside out trying to predict what you’re going to ask next, that responds with the lightest feathery touch of the leg or seat, that does not need to be ridden with spurs, etc.

I am sorry that you seem to be wringing your hands over what you perceive as a growing anti-Warmblood sentiment, but you need to just accept that there will always be people who are passionate about other breeds and champion their talents and abilities in the Olympic disciplines, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Variety is the spice of life.

Also, European Warmbloods were originally intended for cavalry, not sport. You would do well to remember that. Breeding goals can evolve, Warmbloods don’t have a monopoly on that.

Um, are you ok? This is your second response to me in this thread that has been like this. Why are you trying to make a casual conversation personal? Why are you presuming to know how I think and feel? Why do you feel the need to put words in my mouth and misrepresent what I say? There really is no need for your snark. You could do what we all do and accept that we disagree and keep living your life. Or be angry. Whichever you prefer.

[fivestrideline]

@Warmblood1

And to me this seems like an issue with pricing and sellers?

A bit, yes, not only because OP made it relevant in their post calling out “affordable but somewhat competitive amateur horses”.

When there’s a 50% markup on a nice horse because it’s a “warmblood” vs that same horse with its JC papers, that’s where people really start looking for alternative breeds without the price tag.

[ASBJumper]

Not angry at all, just driving points home. I am pulling directly from your posts with statements like these:

"I think those that say these horses don’t exist are either a). Unaware or b). Protecting their own interest because they are breeding/selling crossbreeds and have a bias against WBs"

"Speaking of bias, a lot of people in the US have a bias against certain breeds. We see it with the TB and Arabian, I feel that a bias towards WBs is becoming more prevalent as well"

You see bias where we see “preferences”.

There was no snark - I happen to disagree with you and with most people who think like you, but that doesn’t make me snarky.

[Warmblood1]

@ASBJumper

There was no snark - I happen to disagree with you and with most people who think like you, but that doesn’t make me snarky.

I agree, disagreement does not make you snarky. It was the tone of your posts that I found snarky. Also that you assume to know how I think or feel when you do not know anything about me.

No single person here knows everything about breeding. We are all sharing our opinions. I hope that we can continue to have healthy discussion without resorting to personal insults or attacks.

[Scribbler]

I’m in an odd position because WB just don’t generally speak to me, for whatever reason. I do really admire TB but I feel like I have no business trying to take on a green OTTB project at my age. At the same time, it’s clearly obvious that WB are purpose bred for English sport disciplines and that even mehhh WB have sport qualities above and beyond the average horse of other breeds. There are exceptional horses of other breeds that might do dressage or hunters better than a mehhh WB, but in general the competitions have evolved to make the most of WB characteristics (stride length between fences, gait size etc). Just like Ranch Horse or reining or cutting have evolved to make the most of QH characteristics, even if it’s open competition.

So I get why people want WB and will pay a premium.

[Montanas_Girl]

@Warmblood1

The question I still have with this thread is if you are breeding horses that are not geared towards the upper levels, what is it that makes them unsuitable for upper levels? Poor conformation? Temperament? Why try to reinvent the wheel? Why not use sane, sound and proven lines and produce upper level talent? Why not use breeds of horses actually intended for the sport? It is not cheaper to breed lesser quality animals.

The point those of us who don’t breed for “world beater” types are trying to make to you is that you kind of have the issue in reverse. It’s not that excellent amateur horses are lacking in quality and therefore unsuitable for the upper levels of their intended sport. It’s that those “world beater” types are very often lacking the qualities necessary to be excellent amateur horses.

Let’s take my sport of cow horses, for example. The very, very best horses are electric. They have to have lightning fast reactions and anticipate both their riders and the cattle. The very qualities that make them excel in the arena are likely to get me dumped on my head at the first cut, not on purpose but because I can’t ride as fast as those horses can move. They also tend not to be the types that are okay standing in the pasture all week and then loading up for a weekend lesson.

It’s not a matter of lower priorities but different priorities. I will sacrifice a little reactivity and brilliance to get better dispositions and soundness. People breeding for world beaters, on the other hand, will sacrifice the “low maintenance” qualities that are ESSENTIAL for my market in favor of brilliance. Different priorities.

Edited to add: There doesn’t exist in the world a horse that is flawless in every possible way. So EVERY breeding choice involved weighing pluses and minuses. Which trait you are willing to give a little on in order to improve on a different trait varies depending on the goals of your program. “Sacrifice” is a relative term.

[fivestrideline]

@Montanas_Girl

It’s not that excellent amateur horses are lacking in quality and therefore unsuitable for the upper levels of their intended sport. It’s that those “world beater” types are very often lacking the qualities necessary to be excellent amateur horses.

Well said!!

[Scribbler]

@fivestrideline

@Montanas_Girl

It’s not that excellent amateur horses are lacking in quality and therefore unsuitable for the upper levels of their intended sport. It’s that those “world beater” types are very often lacking the qualities necessary to be excellent amateur horses.

Well said!!

Yes!

I mean it’s well known that some horses are marketed as “pro ride” or “must be in a program.”

Now every breed of horse has a spectrum of temperament within it. There are places on that spectrum where QH TB and WB will overlap but the QH spectrum will go further one way towards calm and level-headed, and the TB and WB will go further the other way towards reactive and hot. I’ve been safe enough riding teenaged been there done that TB, but that is a huge difference from picking up a 4 year old OTTB as a project!

The qualities of mind that make a safe all around horse are positive qualities of courage, confidence, gregariousness, curiosity and intelligence. You want the kind of horse that isn’t likely to spook at a leaf and jump in front of a truck. Or get so wound up they lose their minds and bolt and buck in the arena. But here I go phrasing it as negatives

Ok, you want a horse with a basically happy disposition which means solid functional conformation so nothing ends up hurting. You want a horse that is curious and problem solving and friendly to people. You want a horse that sees new environments as interesting. You want a reasonably easy keeping horse. You want a horse that has a sense of self preservation. You want a horse with good feet and sure footed. Etc.

Then you can think about what special skills the horse needs for different disciplines.

There’s a lot of variation in TB personality but since the main drive is breed for speed that’s not necessarily considered and a little crazy might win races. There’s lots of variation in WB personality too and since obviously the biggest market is ammies, I’m sure breeders are focusing on mind as well. The recent fad for tall as possible really didn’t do many ammies any favors though because a gangly 17.3 four year old WB is a handful no matter how basically good natured, and the sheer size is intimidating. I’ve watched reasonably experienced ammies and low level pros struggle with their giant Dream Horse., especially smaller people.

[Ghazzu]

There’s a reason that “suitability” is listed as a criterion in many horse show class descriptions. And that its placement in the list of criteria differs from one division to another.

[quietann]

This DHH stallion, Macho, the highest scoring KWPH DHH stallion ever, belongs to my older mare’s farrier. Bill Duffy and his family have some nice DHHs over here, and just imported Macho. He is only 7, and has been used on a lot of the limited quantity of DHH mares in the Netherlands. Bill got his start in Morgans and was not surprised at all when I told him that one of Feronia’s grand-dams was a very, very fancy Morgan park harness champion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPqBnF9v-aE&ab_channel=KWPN-NA

[jvanrens]

Damn he’s flashy! Not what I picture being a good dressage sire though.

[quietann]

I didn’t see that as snark at all.

Then again, I am just not a big WB fan. Like exvet, I am really short, and built to ride sturdy, 14-15 hand horses. Looking for a sound brain and body before everything else. Top breeders’ “throwaways” won’t suit me.

[SusanO]

I think a lot of the reason that people are not enabling this dream is because we have seen the person who thinks they have re-invented the wheel and now have a field full of horses that are hard to sell or not sellable. And the social media pleas to help this poor person sell some horses.

I guess because I have a financial background I think you need to look at any endeavor from a marketing/ financial standpoint before you start putting horses on the ground. Who is your target customer? Do they buy foals and will somebody buy an unconventionally bred foal for more than what it takes to put it on the ground? If you have enough money and facilities to carry them if they do not sell as foals then you are a step ahead. AND if you can start them yourself and get them under saddle then you are two steps ahead. The farther they are in training the less the pedigree matters.

And I agree that the pros like a horse that is a lot hotter than I would ever be able to ride. You need that for the top at Grand Prix. But that doesn’t mean all WB’s are ginormous tanks and have gaits an amateur cannot ride. And some people would rather ride a TB due to their sensitivity or a pony to be closer to the ground. Or something else. Doesn’t matter. But you need to find out if there is a market for what you want to produce and a way to bring that horse to that market before you end up with a field full of them.

[2DogsFarm]

The woman I referenced upthread - Edith Kosterka - bred a Trakhener stallion shortlisted for the Olympics: Troubador.
Back in the mid-80s, I had the privilege of seeing him ridden in a benefit demo by Christine Stuckelberger.
Then she went on to breed a herd that ended up being auctioned for next to nothing when she died.
Reason being they were mostly unhandled youngstock.

[BrownDerby]

Remember sportponies4U on this board? A herd of 23 aged unhandled horses and her husband no longer wanted to foot the bill?

[Scribbler]

BIG BEQUEST BECOMES HORSE OF ANOTHER COLOR

I did a Google.

She left a large bequest to a local animal rescue that then had to spend it saving her horses. And these were top quality horses too, just aged and feral

[Laurierace]

I may regret wading in to this but here goes anyway. It seems to me as if we are talking about the price of semen in this thread which is actually ridiculous because no matter the level of sire you choose semen is by far the lowest cost piece of the puzzle. Unlike TBs where 5k is among the lowest stud fee you will find, you will be hard pressed to find any dressage/hunter/jumper stallion no matter how successful he and his offspring are that is more than 5k. Most of the time it’s much lower.

So let’s say you cheap out and choose a 1k stallion instead of 2k and now your foal is on the way. Nothing else changes. Your mare costs are the same, your vet costs are the same etc. Your foaling costs are the same, your foal costs are the same, your inspection costs are the same, your training fees are the same etc. That 1k savings on the stud fee isn’t even a blip on the radar and literally makes zero difference in the price you need to get for the foal in order to make any money whatsoever. It makes even less difference if you keep the foal long enough to get started under saddle. So why wouldn’t you breed to the best? Shoot for the moon and if you miss you are still among the stars hopefully.

I also completely disagree that you can’t breed for a top level horse no matter what the discipline is and breed for ammy temperament. I only breed for ammy horses because I am the epitome of an ammy but that doesn’t mean I didn’t also breed for quality.

[2DogsFarm]

Edith was the definition of Quirky.
But she had a good eye for horses, if lacking in a good long-range plan for her herd.
She ended up buried on her property, scandalizing neighbors.
Friend almost bought one of the feral fillies, then chose not to deal with an unhandled 5yo.