Beware [edit]

[fivestrideline]

Oh I love him!!

An old trainer of mine started in Arabians and has officially drank the USHJA WB Kool-Aid, but they still have a couple Arabs in the barn. One looks like a mini WB - perfect type for the kid who outgrew ponies but still needs to be in the long stirrup. My first lease was a Welsh/Arab large pony - flashy little thing that took up a ton of leg. These Half Arabians usually aren’t going to get the big step or out-fancy the purpose bred WBs - but for the average person wanting to dabble in everything they are a great option, especially if the draft cross model is too lumbering large for you .

I looked heavily at Appendixes when I was shopping but ended up with another cheap OTTB. If I’d wanted to spend a little more, I could’ve found a nice one to convert over from the breed shows.

[fivestrideline]

@Old_Mac_Donald

Went poof literally as I was reading it, so MVP of the day for you!

Do I get a prize?

Lol but seriously, what a flounce on a very tame thread.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I think you have earned the coveted “COTH ESPN Award.”

You saw it coming.

[2DogsFarm]

Worked to suck me in on a thread I probably ignored before it was retitled

@Scribbler re; your up thread reply about clueless breeding, I have 2 words for you:
Edith Kosterka

[Warmblood1]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

Apparently my flame suit could not withstand this group. If you’re thinking of starting a thread about general thoughts, learn from my mistake and don’t. With few exceptions, you’ll be met with bullies, gaslighters and know it alls looking to project whatever the latest disaster is on you unless you parrot the party line and live in their echo chamber. May the odds be ever in your favor.

What a sad attitude to have. It must be difficult to go through life only accepting view points that align with your own.

[Scribbler]

Or get upset when you ask for advice on a project and people actually give you serious advice, because we all should have known in advance this was just daydreaming with no follow through and getting asked hard questions interrupts the fantasy.

[Warmblood1]

@Scribbler

getting asked hard questions interrupts the fantasy.

I think you are dead on with that and it makes the response make so much more sense.

I think most horse people have a “fantasy herd” they daydream of breeding. We just don’t typically have temper tantrums when someone else doesn’t appreciate our fantasy crosses.

It is very strange how similar this is to the Kate Shearer situation.

[Edre]

Something that I keep coming back to in my thoughts as I have followed this thread is that there are programs (in North America, even) that absolutely do breed an amateur friendly dressage mount, whilst being purpose bred, using quality stock, and still being affordable (caveat: I know affordability is a matter of perspective, but I am thinking of foals in the high 4’s or low 5’s). There are programs with SPS mares (sometimes generations of them), using top stallions (both NA and European bloodlines).
As I’ve seen one breeder point out: they do this themselves, they need to be able to safely handle their mares/foals during pregnancy, labour, and the aftermath - so temperament is of huge significance.

I guess part of me looks at elements of this conversation as “a solution in search of a problem”. I admit it - I was crazy dubious with the WB/iberian breed crosses but having watched them as they mature and come along, I can see where the cross offers some solutions for both parties - the warmblood can bring a different temperament to the table that the iberian breeds may benefit from, and can assist with changing the shape of the body just enough to improve on the canter and the extension, and the iberian breeds can help bring some reactiveness to some lines that may lack the responsiveness to aids, can also help with making the frame more compact in lines that have issues with a back that is getting too long, and increase the power for sitting and carrying.

The TBs and the anglo arabs were really promoted in the WB registries in “recent” history for much the same reason - there was a “problem” (type was heavy, coarse) and the introduction of blood was a solution. In the same way, appendixes make a lot of sense, along with some other more familiar crosses.

I guess I do not follow where the “classic” phenotype of a DHH (as, the breed standard) aligns with a WBx and what purpose it serves - couldn’t one go source a gelderlander/horse with gelderlander blood for this purpose, without some of the drawbacks of a conventional DHH? And at the end of the day, while one can say they have a DHH mare who is “not” average/the stereotype it still is never quite certain what crosses will pass on (why so many draftxTBs can be…interesting) - and sometimes, it seems like the introduction of an outside breed can really shine in the second or third generation, not the first gen crosses (though of course, this is not always the case!)

At the end of the day - there is a market for a safe, kind, forgiving, trainable, ridable amateur horse. I think you can also have a program that focuses on that without compromising on the quality of the horse, since so many of the colossal gaits are the product of tension (in worst case) or training/strength/strategic riding (best case). Perhaps someone may not choose to breed to (insert notoriously hot sire here), but for every (insert notoriously hot sire here), there will be a Romanov or a Belissimo that are just as qualified (no “compromising quality” at all) with a temperament that is more forgiving.

Wall of text. But wow this thread went places, there was a lot to ponder on.

[Scribbler]

@Warmblood1

@Scribbler

getting asked hard questions interrupts the fantasy.

I think you are dead on with that and it makes the response make so much more sense.

I think most horse people have a “fantasy herd” they daydream of breeding. We just don’t typically have temper tantrums when someone else doesn’t appreciate our fantasy crosses.

It is very strange how similar this is to the Kate Shearer situation.

Are DHH shaping up to be the next trainwreck niche breed? After drum horses/gypsy cobs, Friesians and Andalusians?

I can see Kate getting defensive about the (legitimate and damning) criticism of her actual real breeding program and horses. But getting defensive about a hypothetical fantasy breeding program in the distant future is a new one.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Scribbler

Are DHH shaping up to be the next trainwreck niche breed? After drum horses/gypsy cobs, Friesians and Andalusians?

I learned a lot from the KS thread when I went to look up her key broodmares in the ADHHA online studbook.

She promotes that Reba was a Ulandro daughter, and Ivanka is a Dondersteen daughter, and both those stallions are imported KWPN DHH.

And that is true. And by everything I can see… the stallions are/were nice harness types. But when they came to the US? They were used indiscriminately to breed a LOT of mares.

Ulandro has 244 registered offspring in the ADHHA online studbook. My guess is that there are plenty of unregistered offspring out there as well. Many of the offspring are listed as only 50% DHH, because he was bred to grade mares, or other harness types like STB, Hackney, etc. And he was bred to ASB mares. But, per the ADHHA rules, all these horses can be registered as DHH. The registry does not have the same requirements for mares, and eligibility of foals for papers for varying levels of papers as KWPN does. The ADHHA will register anything that has a pedigree that is 50% DHH.

Dondersteen is even more telling than Ulandro. He has 944 registered offspring in the ADHHA studbook. Again… that’s just registered offspring… I’m sure there are plenty of unregistered out there. So that tells a story… he was clearly bred to anything and everything once he was brought to the states.

Anyway, from what I gather, there are several nice KWPN DHH stallions who were bred in the Netherlands and brought to the US over the last several years. The challenging issue with DHH in North America is what has happened with what has been bred here from these stallions. The Amish are generally very practical with their horses, and the horses have jobs and are useful types… unless they aren’t… then they go to an auction. After which they may ship to Canada for obvious reasons. It is what it is. But, some people looking for affordable horses will go to these auctions and find project types or rescues. And some of these stories end great - I know a few knowledgeable people who have made a nice little business of training up auction horses, and then selling them to the amateur market as low level eventing, pony club, lesson horses or fox hunting types. And they do a great job with this. But… there are other people who seem to have gotten a DHH from a low cost source - auction or Amish breeder - and have goals to show and compete in dressage or something else, and believe firmly that the horse is going to be just as competitive as a purposely bred warmblood or sporthorse. Or… they employ the logic that DHH is the same as a warmblood because KWPN registers both. Etc etc etc. And this line of thinking is a bit more questionable in my opinion. But… whatever. If these people enjoy the journey with their horses, and have fun - that’s great. They can do what they want and think what they want, and hopefully they achieve their goals. The problem, as I see it, is when things cross a line, and people try and advertise these low cost DHH projects for resale as a “KWPN” dressage prospect or “KWPN” jumper… or when they start a breeding program based on DHH mares and are trying to sell “KWPN” prospects in utero… that’s when I see the whole thing turning into a problem.

And again… before I get accused of being a “DHH hater”, or not understanding that KWPN has a tuigpaard studbook… I get it. It’s just that here in North America, we have issues periodically with people breeding some types of dogs and horses indiscriminately, and trying to turn a profit from it one unethical way or another. And it seems like there is a bit of a grey area with DHH and a few unethical horse flippers and breeders are trying to take advantage of less educated people, and make a profit by representing DHH as being “the same” as a warmblood that has been carefully bred for riding performance over multiple generations on both the sire and dam side of the pedigree.

[Willesdon]

The DHH has recently used both both Hackney and Saddlebred blood, presumably to build in massive leg movement that is so very flashy in harness. They have far more action than the Gelderlanders or Groningens that are the original Dutch carriage horses. DHH have only been in the USA for some 15-20 years. To an American eye used to the action of trained Saddleseat and gaited horses, they perhaps look like a potential dressage horse. But the Dutch themselves use their other WBs for Olympic sport. Makes one think.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I had a discussion with a really good rider a few months ago who is interested in breeding, and passionate about Dutch horses in particular. She was knowledgeable about the history of specific Dutch warmblood lines, and how Gelders horses had been used… but she didn’t seem to really understand that the modern DHH is a very different type than traditional Gelders horses from a few decades ago.

I think this is another layer of grey area that gets confusing when people talk about trying to breed riding type sporthorses from DHH.

[Willesdon]

The Gelderlanders and Groningens have separate identities to the Dutch Harness Horse, being long established, if now rare, working breeds. Unfortunately, all three are Dutch and all three are harness horses. All in a name.

Just as a side note, some Hackney blood can produce good jumpers like many trotting breeds. The Selle Francais has been bred from French Trotters, Anglo Arabs (the French have bred these over a couple of centuries into a recognised sport horse breed), a touch of TB and Normandy Cobs for bone.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Absolutely. I love reading about the history of various sport horse breeds, and how they developed and evolved over the last 100-200 years.

In America, we have our own mythos/recurrent narrative in our sporthorse history that is buried in the subconscious of many horse lovers. And that is the story of the underestimated/undervalued horse, who was “found” or “rescued” by a big hearted person who believed in it… and it went on to win something very memorable and significant.

The Eighty Dollar Champion is one example. I’m trying to think of others… but that’s the obvious, most recent one.

Anyway, I think some of these people on some of these threads discussing DHH are blending the history of how European warmbloods were developed, with this recurrent American narrative and feel good story about finding a diamond in the rough at an auction who goes on to win everything at the Grand Prix level… and it’s all coming together in the physical form of many a DHH that people have found relatively recently here in North America. And that’s what has gotten people convinced that these particular horses are under appreciated and destined for greatness.

That’s just what I am seeing. And again… it’s fine for people to buy what they want and ride what they want, and have big goals. And hopefully it all works out. But… the flip side in North America in recent years is that when something gets really fashionable, and people can breed it cheap and sell it easily… some horrible people do… and then the market cools off, & terribly sad cases involving severe neglect and death of large numbers of horses results.

[2DogsFarm]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom BINGO!

I have friends with a farm in Amish country & more than 20yrs ago I remember them showing me a local Sale catalog featuring DHH studs.
Then very new & being a former ASB owner, friend liked what she saw.
FF & today you see a lot of DHH crosses pulling Amish buggies & showing up in sales & auctions.
The breed still has breeders - Amish & English - with quality horses, but those that don’t make the cut end up at auction or working for a living as family drivers.
Dutch breeders may have seen us coming - much as the Vanner craze made some Irish rich.
Another friend’s adult son imported a stud, dropped a bundle on training & now the horse has been gelded. So the quality exported was not the 1st Rate. That stayed in Holland.

[Warmblood1]

@Edre

Something that I keep coming back to in my thoughts as I have followed this thread is that there are programs (in North America, even) that absolutely do breed an amateur friendly dressage mount, whilst being purpose bred, using quality stock, and still being affordable (caveat: I know affordability is a matter of perspective, but I am thinking of foals in the high 4’s or low 5’s). There are programs with SPS mares (sometimes generations of them), using top stallions (both NA and European bloodlines).
As I’ve seen one breeder point out: they do this themselves, they need to be able to safely handle their mares/foals during pregnancy, labour, and the aftermath - so temperament is of huge significance.

I guess part of me looks at elements of this conversation as “a solution in search of a problem”. I admit it - I was crazy dubious with the WB/iberian breed crosses but having watched them as they mature and come along, I can see where the cross offers some solutions for both parties - the warmblood can bring a different temperament to the table that the iberian breeds may benefit from, and can assist with changing the shape of the body just enough to improve on the canter and the extension, and the iberian breeds can help bring some reactiveness to some lines that may lack the responsiveness to aids, can also help with making the frame more compact in lines that have issues with a back that is getting too long, and increase the power for sitting and carrying.

The TBs and the anglo arabs were really promoted in the WB registries in “recent” history for much the same reason - there was a “problem” (type was heavy, coarse) and the introduction of blood was a solution. In the same way, appendixes make a lot of sense, along with some other more familiar crosses.

I guess I do not follow where the “classic” phenotype of a DHH (as, the breed standard) aligns with a WBx and what purpose it serves - couldn’t one go source a gelderlander/horse with gelderlander blood for this purpose, without some of the drawbacks of a conventional DHH? And at the end of the day, while one can say they have a DHH mare who is “not” average/the stereotype it still is never quite certain what crosses will pass on (why so many draftxTBs can be…interesting) - and sometimes, it seems like the introduction of an outside breed can really shine in the second or third generation, not the first gen crosses (though of course, this is not always the case!)

At the end of the day - there is a market for a safe, kind, forgiving, trainable, ridable amateur horse. I think you can also have a program that focuses on that without compromising on the quality of the horse, since so many of the colossal gaits are the product of tension (in worst case) or training/strength/strategic riding (best case). Perhaps someone may not choose to breed to (insert notoriously hot sire here), but for every (insert notoriously hot sire here), there will be a Romanov or a Belissimo that are just as qualified (no “compromising quality” at all) with a temperament that is more forgiving.

Wall of text. But wow this thread went places, there was a lot to ponder on.

I agree whole heartedly. There are ammy friendly, sane WBs available in the US with upper level talent. I personally own and breed them. The WBs competing with Paralympic riders prove they exist. We have a Paralympic stallion standing in the US that immediately comes to mind who is producing talented, ammy friendly mounts. I think those that say these horses don’t exist are either a). Unaware or b). Protecting their own interest because they are breeding/selling crossbreeds and have a bias against WBs.

Speaking of bias, a lot of people in the US have a bias against certain breeds. We see it with the TB and Arabian, I feel that a bias towards WBs is becoming more prevalent as well. I feel at the end of the day, we should all be judging the horse in front of us instead of putting so much emphasis on breed. Too much emphasis can lead to unhealthy situations such as Kate breeding DHH mares to well known KWPN stallions and expecting the foals to sell like hotcakes simply because they are KWPN papered, not well bred.

The question I still have with this thread is if you are breeding horses that are not geared towards the upper levels, what is it that makes them unsuitable for upper levels? Poor conformation? Temperament? Why try to reinvent the wheel? Why not use sane, sound and proven lines and produce upper level talent? Why not use breeds of horses actually intended for the sport? It is not cheaper to breed lesser quality animals. At the end of the day, it’s all an enormous expense and effort. Most barely break even with their programs using even the best of stock.

[exvet]

I’ll bite and do my best with your question. It’s not that we don’t shoot for the upper levels of a discipline. Mine had/has the talent, mind and athleticism for upper level if we are talking about dressage or CDE on the local, regional, national stage but the reality is that my market did not consist of those people likely to get there but they were decent, dedicated riders who had the dream and wanted a pet/partner that could fit into their life style. My crosses went on to do eventing, working equitation, and CDE as well as dressage. One is likely debuting at PSG next year. I have always used sane, sound and proven lines just not meeting the conventional accepted definition of sport horse. If you look at the breed standard of welsh cobs though you’ll see very strong and distinct parallels to those of specific sport horse registries. Having bred holsteiners and presenting stock for approval prior to having children, I took the concept and did my best to apply it to my chosen breed. I’m 5’2", 60 years old and weigh under 110. My chosen breed is more suitable for my needs and wants (now and then) as are the crosses I produced. I would guess the next question is why not GRPs, but for the sake and sanity of us all, don’t get me started.

[fivestrideline]

@Warmblood1

if you are breeding horses that are not geared towards the upper levels, what is it that makes them unsuitable for upper levels? Poor conformation? Temperament? Why try to reinvent the wheel? Why not use sane, sound and proven lines and produce upper level talent?

I posted an HJ focused breakdown upthread but this is the gist - a lot of what makes an UL horse (very athletic with a big jump and movement, a good peek, etc), does not make a lower level/amateur friendly ride. A lot of amateurs may want to ride 3-4 days a week, need something they can stay with without riding 8 horses a day, and don’t want to deal with the spook that often makes hunter horses jump so careful. Something a little lazier, less athletic, and content to lope around the 3’ is a different beast than the Performance Hunter, usually.

Moreso, the ones that CAN do both, are no means “affordable”. And that’s really the kicker - what about the capable $20k and under crowd who want a hunter to show Channel II and not die? Is it a feedlot rescue or OTTB, or import for mid fives? It’s not about not breeding “the best” - it’s that “the best” is a different animal for different people.

[cristalle]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

So everyone can get off their huffy bikes and relax -

So, let me get this straight. You started this thread, as a would-be breeder with no experience, to get some feedback from the experienced breeders on this forum.
People kindly, responded, sharing their experiences and thoughts on the topic.
You, then change the title of the thread to call people who are not in line with you “Karens” and tell them to “get off their huffy bikes and relax”?
All righty then.
I love when people ask a question, and then don’t want to hear the answers. You already seem to know everything, so why ask?

[cristalle]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

Apparently my flame suit could not withstand this group. If you’re thinking of starting a thread about general thoughts, learn from my mistake and don’t. With few exceptions, you’ll be met with bullies, gaslighters and know it alls looking to project whatever the latest disaster is on you unless you parrot the party line and live in their echo chamber. May the odds be ever in your favor.

YIKES.
I didn’t see this comment before I made my own.
No need to say more.