Beware [edit]

[DownYonder]

@fivestrideline

@Willesdon

There is also the military influence. European nation states were breeding horses for war for several centuries before shifting to sport after WWII - with the exception of Britain. The TB, the ultimate sport horse, developed over centuries with no assistance from any British Government.

In the USA, the Army Remount Programme was very influential in the evolution of what became the AQH, based in the big, open rangelands where raising horses was cheap.

This is a good point! I guess you could say the true “American Warmblood” is the QH, in some ways.

We don’t have a long history of plow and harness horses either (what has survived is the Morgan and the Saddleseat breeds). To be fair, the US doesn’t have a “long history” of anything when comparing it to Europe. We just haven’t existed as long.

I agree that the closest America has come to producing its own version of a “warmblood” is the Quarter Horse. The American Saddlebred could also be considered in that vein, although both of course were developed for different purposes than what we know as “European Warmbloods.”

I am long enough in the tooth to remember when AHSA (the precursor to USEF) was run primarily by and for the Saddlebred folks - when the headquarters was in NYC - and the sport horse disciplines were sort of a step child (so to speak) of the old USET. Then USOC decreed that a sport could have only one governing body and USEF was born, which focuses very much on sport horses for the Olympic disciplines. I also think that the old AHSA focus on Saddlebreds was one of the reasons why the QH folks founded their own organization - they wanted more control of rules and regulations that were more conducive to the growth of their breed and their respective “disciplines” than of show and saddle horses.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

For pete’s sake and for the last time - IT’S NOT A PLAN!! IT WAS ALL HYPOTHETICAL!!! PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE I CAME HERE FOR ANYONE’S APPROVAL!!!

[DownYonder]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

[Scribbler]

No mention of showing. I have no problem with an ammie schooling at home perennially, but if you are going to be producing horses for other people you do need some objective confirmation of what you claim they can do.

It’s very common for an athletic horse to have some moves “above their pay grade” but also have holes in the basics. Riding a test is a very good test of whether you can piece it altogether.

I’m also very familiar with the sort of horse that did well at a few schooling shows Training Level, never showed First, and is now being sold as “schooling second” meaning they’ve started shoulder in or something. But really just going Training Level.

[fivestrideline]

On the off-breed/outcross side of the discussion, I’ll admit I don’t understand the recent Friesian/DHH/ASB obsession but I’m predominantly H/J so they really don’t suit my tastes. However, there is a HUGE need for safe and sane born broke types that can jump 3’ and under and be semi-competitive in local As and opportunity stuff. I’ve seen two off-breed types be very successful at this job repeatedly:

Appendix QH and Half Arabians.

The half Arabs have the more refined WB look with the right cross being a catty jumper, and the Appendixes can be surprisingly nice movers. But, since these are usually bred for the breed circuit, they aren’t consistently the USHJA type. I think if someone wanted to, they could easily (with educated choices and luck) make nice lower level hunters with those crosses.

Personally I still think a TB is the best “non-WB” choice, and if I chose to start a breeding program I’d be getting the highest quality TB broodmares I could and crossing them with appropriate WB stallions. YMMV, of course.

[Scribbler]

I said a decade ago that aspects of modern dressage especially the “impure” extended trot and the rider position were on a collision course with saddleseat. It makes sense that people would figure that ASB are ideal dressage horses if we want big front legs and swan necks.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Scribbler

But people really do get into trouble breeding horses they can’t sell for enough money to recoup costs. It happens all the time though not always blowing up to a level that COTH would notice. As hay and care costs skyrocket it’s more and more risky. I have two cautionary tales in my immediate network neither of which I’m going to put on blast. But both ended up with rehoming unbroken horses in their teens when life changes happened. And horses suffered.

This. I have a situation in my network that is unfolding. It’s sad.

[Scribbler]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

Apparently my flame suit could not withstand this group. If you’re thinking of starting a thread about general thoughts, learn from my mistake and don’t. With few exceptions, you’ll be met with bullies, gaslighters and know it alls looking to project whatever the latest disaster is on you unless you parrot the party line and live in their echo chamber. May the odds be ever in your favor.

So the OP has officially left the building.

[Scribbler]

I would say COTH does not really exist to fluff up people’s winter daydreams. And if you’ve been around horses long enough to know trainers and low level pros behind the scenes you are going to have seen a few things that make the daydream of breeding My Speshul Pony Mix in any quantity to be very very dangerous. For the horses that didn’t ask to be born and for the breeder who is bleeding cash.

If someone wants DHH x Sporthorse young stock they can make Kate Shearer an offer

[Ghazzu]

Not even “modern”.
Chuck Grant was riding saddlebred crosses.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Doesn’t work like that. You can’t just upset the chessboard because you don’t like the outcome of the game…

PS I only read this thread because of the new Karen title. Well done, drew more attention to the thread!

[Unfforgettable]

I only saw one Karen here. What did I miss?

[lenapesadie]

I’ve been reading along with this thread with a bit of interest as I’ve bred a grand total of one foal. I’ve no intentions of breeding any more, but if I were I think I’d likely do similar to my first pairing. I’m a dressage enthusiast myself.

I bought an off the track QH mare and bred her to a Friesian that stood locally and offered live cover. I had originally wanted to breed her to an Iberian but the mare had failed to conceive previously with fresh cooled so I elected to prioritize live cover options. My resulting horse is plenty nice enough for the average amateur to explore a variety of “English” disciplines. He’s got a bit more knee action at the trot than is likely ideal for a hunter, but he has a good canter and an inclination for jumping. I believe he’s very ammy friendly as I started him myself and I am the poster child of fluffy middle aged amateurs.

At any rate, I believe the off track QH dam brought the sensibilities of QHs and the canter of TBs (most if not all racing QHs are heavy TB when you look back in the pedigrees) to the breeding. I handled several similar mares at that time in my life and think they all would have been valuable as broodmares for sensible riding types not pointed at the Olympics. I think Iberian studs might likely be a more reliable cross than the Friesians. My boy is very handsome, but I’ve met others less fortunate. Of course, the availability of color genetics in QH and Iberian lines are appealing to the market.

Again, I’m not planning on breeding any more horses myself. I had my one foal and that was enough for me.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Went poof literally as I was reading it, so MVP of the day for you!

[Montanas_Girl]

@fivestrideline

However, there is a HUGE need for safe and sane born broke types that can jump 3’ and under and be semi-competitive in local As and opportunity stuff. I’ve seen two off-breed types be very successful at this job repeatedly:

Appendix QH and Half Arabians.

My first horse was 75% Arabian, 25% Appendix. He wasn’t exactly born broke, but he was a kind hearted chap and carried me all the way from walk/trot to the Adult Amateurs, though he was at his best at 2’6” in tougher competition.

I paid $2,300 for him in 2000, which seemed like an enormous sum of money to my 15 year old self. In 2009, we even won a year-end high point award in our local (KY, at the time) h/j organization in the 2’6” hunters.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Remember too, yes OP may never have acted upon her plan, but other people reading this thread with similar ideas will/may benefit from the sage (and warranted) advice.

Even if you know for certain that a person will never, ever act upon a plan… doesn’t mean giving it a robust “oh yes, yes, TOP IDEA!” seal of approval (with your fingers crossed) on a public forum is a wise idea.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Unfforgettable

I only saw one Karen here. What did I miss?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

That’s awesome. I’ve had a lot of fun over the years riding some great little Arab crosses. When they are good, they are truly wonderful.

[DownYonder]

I have run into more than a handful of Arabian/QH crosses and they were all very nice horses. They weren’t going to the Olympics, but neither were their riders, who ranged from teenagers to fluffy middle-aged amateur ladies who rode a desk more than they rode their horse. Those horses were safe, honest, kind-hearted, and versatile mounts who could turn in respectable rounds at local hunter shows, finish in the ribbons in combined training, and safely pack their riders around on trails and while fox hunting. And most of the ones I knew were sound and useful well into their 20’s. I’ve often thought that was a great cross for the general amateur market who just want to have fun with their horses.

[Montanas_Girl]

They really are the best little horses, not that I’m biased at all.