Beware [edit]

[exvet]

This is sooooooo true which many on this board seem to discount or forget. I have a technician who just came back from Germany after visiting her four sisters and mother. All were born and raised there. She has horses but she’s into the western disciplines. When I first took the job and met her, she asked what I had for horseflesh. I told her - far fewer than I used to - 2 welsh cobs, 1 morgan and 1 mustang. She picked up a huge bowl of dog food (for the clinic dog) and said THIS is a Welsh Cob. Look at what ‘we’ do to Welsh Cobs. I laughed and told her that it’s likely what happened to one of my holsteiners that won most if not all of his sport horse in hand classes but liked to do most things on his two hind legs. [In reality he ended up in a very good situation and excelled just a different discipline than what I had in mind.] The point is that in Europe, not only are there a variety of horses but they CULL and have managed their culling in a way that is not considered palatable here.

This individual has quarter horses and paints. She’s a very good horsewoman, having grown up on horseback and did follow the typical ‘norm’ in her part of Germany. She watched one of my last shows and stated, if most rode like you I could show my face and not die at a dressage show. (She also admitted that my horses would likely not end up as ‘food’ in Europe) Again, I laughed and thanked her for the back handed compliment. Her choice after coming to the US a couple of decades ago was to ‘become an American Rider’ and pursue what America does best when it comes to equine pursuits. She settled in the Southwest for a reason. She breeds and culls as she was taught. Her stock, not what I’m into, but is easy to see is pretty nice

[quietann]

Thanks for this…it’s a much better explanation of what’s going on with ISHs than I could think of when I posted.

I guess, being very aware of the history of the Morgan breed in the 20th century, I’m a traditionalist. Should the Traditional ISH not be bred anymore because the WB/ISH crosses are better high performance horses? I hope not.

[TheJenners]

Gotcha! And while you may not see full ID doing the really big stuff, it’s not uncommon to know of a couple at prelim level or low jumpers. The traditional cross of ID/TB is sporty but no one I know of (and I know a few) are objecting to the ID/KWPN crosses right now.

[dynamite0319]

IME Lots of Americans LOVE the Gypsy hair!

[chocolate_chip_in]

If I were ever in the market for a second horse, I would not object at all to the pony fairy visiting me with an ID/KWPN to complement my Connie/Hanoverian But people are indeed very worried about the loss of the traditional ISH breeding directions. Right on the main page of the Traditional Irish Horse Association:

The Traditional Irish Horse Association (TIHA) is Irelands advocate for the conservation and development of the Traditional Irish Horse, which was a world leading breed in showjumping and eventing throughout the 20th century but whose presence at the highest levels of these sports has decreased in recent decades. The breeding and sourcing of suitable stallions is a critical issue as is the conservation and development of our top mare-lines, many of which are being lost to the traditional gene pool. These issues have created the sense of urgency for TIHA to prioritise and implement a comprehensive national breeding and development plan for the Traditional Irish Horse.

Traditional Irish Horse Association | Irish horse breeders and advocates

You will not find KWPN studs on the TIH stallion lists.

[CanteringCarrot]

The American Gypsy Vanner thing will forever be weird to me

I guess they’re “exotic” and just different so that’s the appeal. Plus the hair, for whatever reasons.

What is a common cob across the pond is “worth” quite a bit in the US. Cobs can be nice hardly all-arounders, but some of these American prices! But, then again, they’re not native to here and generally, everything is more expensive in the US.

I have to hold myself back when some of my European friends complain about prices of horse related things. It’s still sooo cheap compared to the US.

[dynamite0319]

Same! Give me 4 black legs and hardly any hair!
My understanding is that many Gypsy horses in the UK/Ireland are solid colored, too. Americans would be distraught if their Gypsy foal came out anything less than loudly paint colored.

[CanteringCarrot]

Or in Germany you have the Tinker which are spotted cobs generally suitable for kids, or maybe someone’s mount for occasional hacking. Generally not expensive at all.

[quietann]

I think what’s coming to the US is tinkers’ cobs, while a true Show Cob is a work of art.

[chestnutmarebeware]

@CanteringCarrot

The American Gypsy Vanner thing will forever be weird to me

I’m pretty sure it’s the horsey-adult version of My Little Pony, or those terrifying life-size Barbie heads from my childhood where kids could style the hair and apply makeup.

[TheJenners]

Err no. But I’m a member of both the Canadian and US Irish Draught Horse Associations, which is pushing to preserve full Irish Draughts because of.how popular the crosses are for sport. I have an IDSH (the registered designation for what people casually call “ISH”) and an ID currently and hoping for another IDSH this summer. My first planned breeding for my ID filly is to a KWPN, for a slightly smaller first foal even tho she is shaping up to be a beast herself. After that I’m reserving her for ID. The KWPN crosses are very popular for sport, and many of them have blood up close so it’s not like heavy horse x heavy horse. Ireland may view things differently but that’s why they are a separate registry.

[SillyHorse]

@alpine1

Not to mention if an adult rolls up to a show in the US with a 15 hand horse, a lot of people will get a good laugh.

This may be true in the hunter world, but not in dressage. Smaller horses are becoming more and more common at dressage shows.

[Alterration]

This is a muse, take it for what it’s worth.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but in breeding anything you have priorities. No horse is perfect, so you breed for qualities that suit an intended purpose. Having ridden many a WB “meant-to-be-world-beater-but-didn’t-make-it” I would argue that they are not well-matched to the average amateur. They were not very fault tolerant and while trainable they had too much energy and gait for the adult amateur dressage rider who, let’s face it, tends to be an over 40 year old woman with some arthritis and a desk job. I’m not knocking us - I belong here too with my injuries and I could not ride the horses today that I could ride 20 years ago - I’m just saying, most of us need something that is quiet first, and athletic and flashy belongs way down the list.

Quarter horses do this fairly well, as someone mentioned upthread, the cutting horse lines tend to be full of zest and athleticism and the western pleasure mounts tend to be much quieter and “born broke”. But QH’s do not do well with many recognized dressage judges, because of the gait factor, driving many amateurs to western dressage.

I think this trend is noteable, as the quality of the WB and the gaits have increased to meet judging standards, they have become less older broken amateur-suitable just by virtue of athleticism EVEN if they are pure gems from the temperament-standard.

It’s an interesting issue and will be curious to see how it all evolves.

[alpine1]

That’s good to hear. I know people are out there with the fancy German Riding Ponies and that sort of thing, but I haven’t seen a single cob-type at any hunter/jumper/dressage barn. Just the other day I commented that a friend’s dressage horse was huge. She looked at me like I was nuts and said, “He’s not really, he’s only 16.3”.

[SillyHorse]

16.3 is a BIG horse. Maybe not monstrous, but big, nonetheless.

Other than perhaps lesson horses, you’re not going to see many cob types in hunter/jumper barns because, in general, their conformation doesn’t lend itself to jumping fences of any considerable size. They aren’t going to be competitive at horse shows. Sure, there are probably exceptions, but as a rule, they aren’t competitive in the show ring.

[CanteringCarrot]

Having seen amd ridden an assortment of Warmbloods in Germany, some are just very plain and rideable. Not all of them have gaits that are all that expressive or interesting. Some are more saintly than others.

There’s just a lot of “everyday” horses kicking around over that are Warmbloods. Some are just happy hackers or leisure time horses.

There are small Warmbloods and big ones. There are hot ones and more laid back ones.

I think you’ll find the Warmbloods in the US typically differ from the ones you’ll find at riding schools in Germany (that can vary though), or the ones kept at home as pets/occasional riding horses. A lot of the “average” or less than average ones are staying in country vs being imported into the USA. So maybe the USA doesn’t see them as much, or see the variety as much?

[alpine1]

There are many kinds/sizes of cobs with different conformation, and they can be definitely be sporty and athletic. Horse & Hound had an issue on cobs not long ago and you’d be amazed what they can do. Cob Working Hunter Hi-Lights

[SillyHorse]

I’m afraid the examples in the video aren’t very good. Cute horses, but cross cantering, cantering on the wrong lead, chipping, none of that would get a second look in the hunter ring here in the U.S.

[Scribbler]

The Premarin Industry in Western Canada in the 1980s and 90s generated a lot of draft cross foals. The industry has contracted a lot but the remaining several farms appear to be breeding foals with an eye to riding sales. As in Britain, the draft x TB has long been a recipe for a lower level sport horse, though the F1 crosses are very random in phenotype. Also hunting guides and pack horse operations in the mountains of BC and Alberta often have QH x draft horses. Not so much for working cow horses, but for back country overnight pack rides and larger riders.

“Vanner cobs” are very rare here, and I think the fan base is similar to Friesians. The one “vanner” or “drum horse” (pinto cob) at our barn does low level dressage.

Anyhow, in addition to actual vanners, a smaller draftx can look like a cob. We also have some Haflingers and Fjords around which are cobby but very distinct types. And of course Welsh cobs, but again rare.

[trubandloki]

@alpine1, I have question on your video. What are they judging in that class?
Did I hear it right, one of the parts of the class is the judge gets on and actually rides the horses?

I do agree that these horses, though cute, would not place in a hunter class in the US.