Interestingly, at a recent stallion show, the point was stressed that in a show jumping stallion the temperament is absolutely crucial. The modern show jumper spends a lot of it’s life travelling (at the top level flying all around the world), staying in unfamiliar stables, being handled often, even by strangers, yet is expected to perform well every time it steps into the arena. A stallion that is hard to handle, that can’t relax, doesn’t travel, isn’t consistent, is not a good breeding stallion.
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I think a lot of people have hit the nail on the head here in that it is all related to cost and what the breeder can get in return for their foal. I’m sure more would be willing to breed for the typical amateur if those ammys were willing to pay enough to make it worth it to the breeder. However, if the costs are pretty much the same to breed a “lesser quality” horse, but you can get 2-3x the price for a nicer foal, then why spend the time, money and heartache on breeding anything less than the best you can?
Of course there are people out there who breed as more of a hobby and have other full time jobs (or are independently wealthy I suppose) that can afford to absorb some losses and breed one or two a year. But like @ASBJumper stated, this is not really tenable if you are trying to run a business.
And I’m not intending to bash anyone that is not specifically breeding for GP or upper level talent. I had my first foal last year that was bred to be an amateur friendly, mid level eventer. But in order to make up for costs, I had to sell him for low 5 figures. Most people who reached out with interest claimed that was above their budget for a foal. Sadly costs for everything are increasing, and that includes foals that are bred for the ammy market.
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I think there is certainly a market for this type of horse but, IME, the price difference isn’t all that great. It costs a lot to get a foal, any foal, on the ground (not to mention raising it for a few years and potentially getting it backed/ started). I think it would be tough/ impossible for someone to breed purpose bred (WB, TB or even other) dressage horses and market them to AAs for less than what an import can cost. This is not to say the discerning AA couldn’t find this type of horse for less than an import, but it is very unlikely it would be purpose bred for dressage (most are “rejects” from other disciplines which is where the real “deals” are for lower level dressage prospects IMO).
I know of a farm that breeds lovely sport bred TBs (and WB x TBs) and their babies are not any less than purpose bred WBs with the crazy movement, and likely not far off from imports either. IIRC, the babies are in the $20-30K range.
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As the saying goes, “Fools breed horses for wise men to buy”.
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Just to shed some light on what your market might be looking for, I think I’m similar to your hypothetical target buyer–amateur, capable of bringing along something sane with pro help, no major competitive goals, no desire for massive gaits or spicy temperament. Dressage focus, but also must be able to handle life outside an arena. I have no delusions about requiring a GP-capable mount 
but do prioritize soundness and tractability.
When I was shopping for a foal, my main requirements were: above average conformation (for dressage) and excellent temperaments in both sire and dam. Regarding temperament, I wanted specific examples of what that meant to the breeder/owner, since everyone has their own definition.
Ideally both, but at least one parent with a competition record above what I’d aim to do, and the foal in question had full (ideally) or half (more likely) siblings I could assess. Bonus points for related offspring being handled/ridden/shown at a young age by an amateur. I came across some lovely, knowledgeable breeders in my search, generally smaller operations, and while I can’t attest to the profitability of their operations, I suspect it was a labor of love.
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This is very helpful information! My plan is to have a VERY small program and hopefully train and maybe show the mares. I don’t love the idea of breeding one mare every year (I know they do all the time with no obvious ill effects, don’t come at me if you do. Just personal preference) so will likely have two mares or three mares and everyone gets some training time built in. I hope that helps with selling the babies if mom actively trains and competes and stays sound and happy.
Would you mind sharing your approximate budget? Doesn’t have to be specific, round numbers would be helpful!
Sure! Most I was seeing that had what I wanted were very low 5’s as weanlings. I could have gotten something objectively “fancier” within that general ballpark, but not only do I not need a big horse with huge gaits, I actually don’t want it, for myriad reasons. But even in my own horsey circle, it does seem that big and flashy/electric remains in high demand (even as youngsters among AA’s).
Thank you again! That’s a nice budget for a baby! I like a good sized horse, my goal will be to produce horses in the 16.2h-17.2h range. Big enough for… uhhhhh… fluffier AA riders but not so big that they start running into soundness issues or have trouble fitting into dressage arenas. I am even open to some flash (my current horse is chestnut with a big blaze, four high stockings and a belly splash) but will be much lower on the priority list than the other, functional factors. Even if that means they are less marketable/take longer to sell. This is definitely more of a passion and a way to produce my next riding horses, so the plan is to keep them as long as is necessary and not hit “fire sale” territory. But isn’t that always the plan?!? 
IME, it’s a great plan if you want to lose a lot of money and have your heart broken. Besides that it’s fun….
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I mean, that’s horses in a nutshell, right??
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For sure. Breeding is next level though.
I bred my nice WB mare after she had a pasture accident and needed a year off. I am a ammy and had been riding and showing her very successfully for 2 seasons.
She didn’t take four times the first year. At that point this foal didn’t exist and was the most expensive horse I ever bought.
The second year she took right away, then had the foal and turned into a monster. She tried to kill a vet and basically anyone in reach, despite being fed 50 trazodone a day. I couldn’t touch the foal or find the mare a home where she would be safe. I finally had to euthanize the mare.
The foal is my next riding horse, I hope. he’s completely unmarketable — no one would want to buy a prospect whose mother was so aggressive/dangerous she had to be put down. He’s not at all like her, but I swear I am never breeding again!
That’s my tale of woe. I am working with this baby a lot trying to make sure he’s a good citizen. He’s come a long way. Fingers crossed. He’s a really nice mover, I just hope his mind will be where it needs to be to become a show horse.
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I can totally see why you wouldn’t want to breed ever again. My previous coach lost her beloved mare to birth complications and was devastated. I also come from the vet world (as a technician, not a vet) and have seen the gamut of bad things that can happen to horses. While I didn’t work with vets that were repro specific, I wouldn’t say repro issues topped the list of things we euthanized horses for. I definitely understand your perspective but do know that I enter this arena with eyes wide open and have good resources for when these situations arise.
I have small niche breeding program with exactly this in mind. I breed dutch New Forest Ponies - a pony breed that has lovely but not exaggerated movement, a solid horse like body suitable for an adult with out being heavy like a haflinger, a kid friendly temperament while also being extremely hardy and sound (as they have to be to live out in the new forest!). The 3 year olds are quiet enough for me to ride on my farm alone, yet my 7 year old was able to go to WEC and bring home the blue ribbon in a huge open division class with scores to 73%. Basically, I’m breeding the ideal mount for petite Adult Amateur (aka myself lol).
The riding age ponies sell like hotcakes and are in very high demand. A second level pony in mid 5’s had a deposit on it before we were even able to market him and an FEI pony sold easily for into the 6 figures.
However, this will be my first year selling a foal (previously I have retained them) and I anticipate it being a little more challenging since maybe the typical Adult Amateur doesn’t want to buy them that young? I will also not be selling super cheap, it will have to go for around 15k just to break even. I am VERY picky about my breeding - my mares are the best of the breed who also ride/compete and I am very picky about stallions. For this foal I literally imported semen from Europe by myself which was no small feat. I refuse to add a subpar animal to the horse population though and after seeing friends struggle with inappropriate horses, giving them a good alternative is a passion of mine. Anyway, I hope seeing real numbers and this feedback helps.
Also, you know how many lamenesses I’ve had since switching from warmbloods to these ponies 7 years ago? ZERO. That alone is priceless!
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I too think there is a market for this. And as an ammy with a day job sometimes having a no frills day or ride at the barn with a steady eddie horse turns the day around.
From the breeder’s perspective, I can appreciate that putting a healthy foal on the ground isn’t for the faint of heart. And the longer you keep that foal/horse, the more money goes into it at with a continued risk of injury. However, as a boarder most facilities I’ve encountered are not equipped to deal with young stock. By young, I mean less than two years of age.
What would be attractive to me, would be the option to keep the young horse on at the facility post-purchase. Ideally, some basic life skills (standing for the vet and farrier, introduction to scary objects, etc) would be included or added for a fee. But I wouldn’t have an expectation of long lining or a start under saddle.
Anyway, just a thought.
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Congratulations on choosing Foresters, a seriously undervalued breed! I believe Horse & Hound is doing an article about them next week.
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Thanks! They are super little critters. Despite the very small population (there were no full New Forests born in the US last year, we hope for 3 this year) they can be found at US dressage finals, the hunter pony finals, all the top competitions. They are surprisingly athletic!
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I breed for what I want to ride. Which is not necessarily what “wins the world” in my discipline (ranch/cow horse) but rather what can be very competitive at all levels but won’t jump out from under an amateur rider. I only have three mares, one of which is a coming two year old, so maybe I’m being overly confident, but I have a waiting list for foals far longer than what I can possibly produce in the next several years. I think there is a significant market for sane, safe, beautiful, athletic horses that are kind enough to tolerate the whole family. And that’s the market I target.
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My first pony was a New Forest.
I was 13 and bought an unstarted 3 yr old. (What could possibly go wrong? 
)
But I started that pony myself, and he was cute, fun to ride and a very sold citizen.
I am sad to hear that there are so few of them being bred in the US.
(sorry for the sidebar!)
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This definitely helps! I am passionate about producing appropriate horses for AAs as well, and with my vet tech background, zero lameness in 7 years is astoundingly wonderful! That’s my goal as well. Sound body and brain are #1 on my list!
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Native ponies, as a group, require far less vet care than other horses. It is one of their many virtues. They evolved in tough natural conditions and “type” remains key to judging them even in the show ring. The New Forest Pony has the least pony-like characteristics and that is perhaps because it comes from open woodlands rather than high moors or mountains. Even so, taking a foal off the forest will allow it to grow an extra hand high compared to a forest-reared pony.
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