Beware [edit]

[chestnutmarebeware]

To me, it depends if you’re talking about a warmblood of some kind, then you could probably sell whatever you produce, because “warmblood”.

However, I think there are too many horses (purebreds, crosses and random breds) already in this country for the homes available and I think that breeding for the sake of breeding is worsening the problem. Ammies looking for good-minded easy, non-world-beaters would have no problem finding a partner in another breed or cross that’s already on the ground that would suit their purposes.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

With all due respect, I disagree. While I do agree that there are too many horses in the world, it’s due to unethical breeding practices. Which don’t lead to quality, sound, purpose bred horses suited to their jobs. If all the ethical breeders believed as you do, all we would have are those produced by people who are simply breeding to get a foal on the ground, with no goal other than $$$ so by the cheapest means possible. I also don’t plan on being a large scale breeder, and if I end up keeping all my foals for life, so be it.

I do also plan, as a separate part of my program, to repurpose DHH, ASB, and/or TB out of the Amish, saddleseat or racing pipeline and help those already on the ground. Also small scale. I don’t think it needs to be an either/or situation. But, this is a breeding forum, so I didn’t include that for obvious reasons.

[chestnutmarebeware]

You mistake my point. Purpose-bred horses should always be bred specifically to be world-beaters. Obviously most won’t be, and those are the ones that end up in lower-level homes.

But starting from the point of lower expectations rarely does horses any favors down the road.

And maybe you should look at the many threads in the Dressage forum where many, many people share their competitive successes with “non-traditional” breeds that weren’t purpose-bred for dressage.

[Warmblood1]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

Where things like soundness, temperament and low maintenance beats hot, athletic and fragile but with insane movement. With 95% or more of riders never getting to a national competition, never mind an international competition, why does it seem that most purpose-bred dressage horses are too spicy, too hard to sit, etc with the main goal seemingly to get them all to GP.

The breeders that I’m familiar with who have foals and in-utero type options that consistently sell are breeding for trainability and soundness. The horses might be “hotter” but many in upper level dressage (for example) believe that bit of edge is a necessary component to the upper levels.

It is common practice (as it should be) to breed for the upper levels of the sport. If one is not breeding for the upper levels of a sport, then what is it they are allowing into their program that would constitute a horse limited to lower levels? Poor conformation? Poor temperament? What makes a horse not a suitable upper level prospect? And why would you want to breed for that? The goal is to always breed for the upper levels and breeding for soundness is absolutely crucial to that.

I think a much better model would to breed horses designed for the upper levels with ammy friendly temperaments. Breeders can also breed for certain types of movement - you do not have to breed upper level horses that move like spiders.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

I think you miss my point. The goal is different for breeding horses with amateurs in mind than with going to the Olympics. Look at what is winning right now and tell me an amateur could even sit on one of those horses. Valegro? Yes. Personally I would get chucked into next Tuesday on some of these horses and that’s not fun. For the VAST majority of riders, while this is sport, it’s also a fun hobby to be enjoyed. I don’t consider that lower expectations, it’s DIFFERENT expectations.

[quietann]

It can depend on who is breeding those registered horses, too. A lot of those who are bred to get to the top don’t have suitable temperaments or training for average riders.

I follow the Morgan breed most closely, and here’s what I see, in a highly unscientific sample:

ISO ads for Morgans: about 80% are from older adults or people with young children or grandchildren, looking for a sturdy, sensible, trained Morgan who can do trails and maybe a bit of dressage and/or local showing.

Sales ads for Morgans, reflecting what’s being bred: about 80% are for young, green, hot horses who oftentimes are not sturdy (as show-breeders go for height over substance), or completely untrained older breeding stock, in-foal mares, show horses who have never been out of an arena on the downswing of their careers, etc. The Amish are leading breeders of Morgans, and they are going for something that can be sold for $$$$$ as show prospects.

The mismatch is extreme. So you end up with people like myself, who take a chance on something a little greener and a little hotter, and are now trying to figure out what to do with their mismatched horse. For me, it probably means getting out of horses entirely once my retiree dies, because I can’t afford to take the risky choice again.

[Minxitbabe]

I follow the Morgans too and they are pricing the people who are interested in what this thread about right out of the breed. Even with breeders starting to have better sport bred programs people are not wanting to pay 15kish for a green “off” breed. And the prices for finished Morgans are the same or more than purpose bred better moving warmbloods! I was shopping for years trying to find a good Morgan fit in and just no. Especially because some of the breeders barely handle their young stock that was in my price range. Very interesting thread and I will be following as it has been enlightening to see what other posters have said.

[Warmblood1]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

I don’t consider that lower expectations, it’s DIFFERENT expectations.

That, to me, makes a great deal more sense.

And FWIW, the average WB does not move like Glamourdale. What is winning in the international arena isn’t necessarily a good representation of what’s being bred consistently by breeders. These horse are outliers.

For example, I breed horses for myself for advanced dressage. I breed for soundness, quality/correct gaits and I place a huge emphasis on temperament and trainability. I breed WBs. I know others who breed with the same goals. So what you are saying you would like to breed for - soundness, rideability, temperament, etc., is being bred for including WB lines. You don’t necessarily have to reinvent the wheel, just find different lines that can produce the ammy friendly horse with a lot of talent and the longevity that you desire.

[ASBJumper]

Ahh, but most Warmblood breeders don’t price their youngstock accordingly when they “don’t move like Glamourdale”. In fact, i would argue that when they truly do have the whole package (because it’s laughable how many WB breeders consider their stock “ammie-friendly” when they are anything but…), they price them exorbitantly high because when it’s well-bred on paper, beautiful and correct, moves well, passes a vet check AND is super ammie-friendly to boot? LOL… yeah…Those ones are priced accordingly - and rightly so. Placing them squarely in the “in my wildest dreams” category of affordability for 95% of the average buying public.

If it was so easy and so common to find affordable, non-Glamourdale level, amateur-friendly Warmbloods, then Baroque horses would not be soaring in popularity. They just wouldn’t. Neither would WB/Arab crosses. Everyone would stick to Warmbloods. But the fact remains that Warmbloods are not being bred primarily for amateur riders for the most part (when all parts of the world are considered) and even the people that are have not been working off of many, many generations of horses bred for that demographic - so the reliability just isn’t there yet.

I think breeders who aren’t also riders that ride/train their own stock often have a very skewed view of what the public wants and what is realistic/available.

The one horse I bred that I sold after putting some mileage on him myself sold to a fairly wealthy older lady who had spent 7 months trying all manner of fancy Warmbloods all over the province and neighbouring province - and even with a very healthy budget, could not find something that was everything Warmblood1 described - quality, sound, and sane. Seven…months. Over 2 dozen horses tried, half a dozen vetted. And after all that, she ended up buying my half-Saddlebred gelding.

The constant ISO ads and frustrated “horse shopping vents” I see on FB and on this board over and over and over tell a very different story than what you are laying out here, Warmblood1. You may think you are breeding what the average amateur wants/needs, but either you are not, or you’re pricing them out of nearly everyone’s budget. But like I said in my very first post in this thread - that’s often what needs to happen to make a viable business model, sadly.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

What she said. lol

[Warmblood1]

@ASBJumper

The constant ISO ads and frustrated “horse shopping vents” I see on FB and on this board over and over and over tell a very different story than what you are laying out here, Warmblood1. You may think you are breeding what the average amateur wants/needs, but either you are not, or you’re pricing them out of nearly everyone’s budget. But like I said in my very first post in this thread - that’s often what needs to happen to make a viable business model, sadly.

You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. My experience obviously differs from yours. There are ammy friendly WBs talented enough for the upper levels in the US.

Also, I already said I breed for myself. I breed what an average amateur could handle. I’m not pricing anything out of any budget.

[goodhors]

I read the nutrition stuff coming out, then look at the horses who " got the best of everything" from in utero, to working ages, and see them with problems. Often little things, nagging away, while other horses have more serious issues develop, seem to need a lot of Vet attention to be used as they age. Both these type horses often retire at younger ages, unable to perform at their “potential” ever.

Yes there are obviously horses that do well, perform quite well, stay pretty sound over the years.

And then we look back to see horses of unknown lineage, raised without the extras, maybe pasture and hay only as young colts. Sometimes kept in horrifying locations full of hazards, machinery, that come out unscarred, sounder than the dollar! And they outperform better bred horses, stay sound into their 20s or later. The famous Appaloosa School Horses many of us learned to ride on, seemed to be a breed apart in being level-headed, amateur friendly, easy keepers, long lasting in constant work.

They never seemed to suffer the ills of present well-bred young horses. OCD was unknown, along with many other things we now check for. They had big feet, thick-walled hooves, proportionate to their body size. Hay quality was often questionable. “I have been haying those fields for years. No fertilizer except spreading manure on them. Fertilizer is expensive you know!” was what I heard buying hay way back in the day. But the horses ate it just fine, not wasted, and they grew well on it. No “horse vitamins” even being marketed! Just the old voodoo things available for shiny hair. Ha ha

Any breeder raising nice stock, investing in providing very nice youngsters MUST be turning some profit to stay in business. Those who talk of “bargin horses” they lucked into, may not be able to buy a second one since breeder had to get out of the business. Horses were sucking away all their money. No buyers to pay back what breeders have invested to produce the great young horse. No one can run a business that doesn’t turn a profit!

We breed (though not often) from good stock. Mares have been good performers for us. Then raise them the old-fashioned way. No fat mares or young horses here! Been around long enough to see the downside of overfed mares and young horses. Ours grow at their own speed over time, which can stretch out when fed hay, pasture, a TRUE handful of grain with daily vitamins once a day. But also no body issues, legs and hooves totally sound. No mature looking 3-4-5 year olds here, still leggy. Not done growing yet. But we raise ours to last for the long-term, 18 years or more in competition.

We breed for ourselves, will only sell a horse who doesn’t work in our program. It takes a YEAR or more to move that horse. It has all the requested items, well behaved, loads, unloads quietly, easy to handle, good to tack up, ties well, get trims or shoes, friendly to catch, easy to ride. New owner can then polish horse for their desired discipline, dressage, hunter, jumper, trail riding, driving. Yet like the Trail Horse Thread, no one wants to pay for a horse with those skills! And being in Michigan, not many people are willing to travel to look at them. Our horses are sound, stay sound into their 20s, even with lots of use, many miles under their hooves.

I am not giving them away. No, I may not make back every penny I have into them, but they are worth the price you pay. I would not be a breeder for anything. Way too much grief moving your young horses on. Seen it over and over.

So funny but also sad, reading of people who buy and pay big money for a horse with the ability to perform and owner is afraid of it! Everyone else rides the horse, says good things, but owner can’t manage it. Owner has the dream, but can’t ride well enough or be in charge of their horse. Sad for the horse who doesn’t “get it” when he goes like he was bred to do! Read the threads, people over-horsed, afraid, or owning horses needing constant medicating , body care, expensive custom tack, to “maybe” be usable. Not the way owning horses should be.

There SHOULD BE some fun in having a horse and using it!

So was it nature or nurture that made them that way?

[quietann]

A lot of breeders and young horse owners seem to be lacking big fields for their youngstock… or aren’t using the fields because the horses are “too valuable.”

[goodhors]

We are not in the showing of young horses, so a mark or scar is not world ending or causing loss of value. To other people any marks are bad. They do not often let young horses run in groups or be outside all day to avoid marks and possible injuries, lowering the selling price. Such young horses, well fed, under exercised, can easily do stupid things in their exuberance during free-time play. They also may be carrying extra weight on small hooves, so horse looks sleek and well filled out, growthy. They get required exercise with handler, usually LOTS of circles. Horse has no choice to work or sleep when tired, has to get in X tIme working. Required exercise usually is not what a young horse needs. Recipe for injury with soft bones.

We believe that trim bodied young horses, on hooves in proportion to size and weight, make a longer lasting horse. They run and play with other horses, quit when tired to take a nap. THEIR choice. They have long, narrow fields here, lots of running room, friends to race with. Older horses in with them are good disciplinarians, not allowing bad behaviour. Herd manners are taught early.

But we are raising our horses for ourselves, not the market. We can live with a possible scar, because their brains are engaged doing horse things outside, learning from the older horses. Most marks won’t affect their competition ability. Not stuck in stalls to protect them, bored, learning bad stall vices.

Mostly we let them be horses as they grow. Handled twice a day, behaving when haltered and led, turn around to wait for release in the pasture or box stall. practice standing for grooming, clipping and hoof trims. We unbuckle halters, turn them to face us for release. None of those throat snaps to slip halter off, which have horses ducking away and running off. We consider ducking off as bad behaviour!

I do think all age horses need a space to run, it is what horses are made to do!

[clanter]

@goodhors

We are not in the showing of young horses, so a mark or scar is not world ending or causing loss of value.

our last weanling was delivered at a major show, since he was there he was entered in a class that did not require prior qualification, it was the stallion/geldings Sport Horse in Hand class, he looked out of place being the only little guy there. Nothing bothered him, he seemed to like the whole mess

he is the little guy in front of the yellow banner, there are another six horses in the line up to the right out of the photo, was five months old at the time

[Amberley]

@chestnutmarebeware

Purpose-bred horses should always be bred specifically to be world-beaters. Obviously most won’t be, and those are the ones that end up in lower-level homes.

I strongly disagree, there is a huge market for sensible, sound, easy-keeping riding horses and has been for literally centuries. Entire breeds have been developed to meet the need

What we don’t need and what most people don’t want are horses bred for “performance” by breeders willing to overlook things in pursuit of a few desired traits. Or who aren’t riders themselves. A horse with a wildly impressive movement or jump that washes out doesn’t always have the sensible temperament to be a 3’ hunter in a micromanaged program much less a trail buddy or a PC mount.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

We all hear the stories about the grade horse pulled out of a barb-wired field that goes on to win jumper glory, as well as the stories of the exact opposite. But this is anecdotal and not what I call evidence for either side. Research on these types of things are usually spotty at best and non-existent at worst, so I don’t know if we’ll ever get the answer to nature vs nurture in an evidence based, peer reviewed type of way.

My theory? I’ll do the best I can with my knowledge (and continued education) of genetics, nutrition, husbandry, training, etc and hope the karma gods smile upon me.

[Willesdon]

Given the responsibility of breeding a sentient creature, and the inherent cost of breeding and keeping and producing the horse, surely the goal of every breeder should be “the best”. But what happens to that horse subsequently depends on so many variables, nutrition, husbandry, training, karma that no one can know if it will be “a world beater” or “ammy friendly” in it’s future life. A good looking horse, with breed papers and a good pedigree is fundamentally more likely to have a secure longer term future than a grade animal. A horse handled by an educated horseman and rider will do better than one handled by some ignorant yahoo.

And who decides what is a world beater? Think of Carl Hester and his horse Nip Tuck who was purchased for an amateur rider, was swapped by mistake, stayed with Hester because HC liked the attitude and heart of the horse and, together, they ended up at the Olympics. On the other hand, my SiL had a lovely mare, bred on top class lines as a sports horse, that SiL used to pootle quietly around the local fields. They were both happy enough. It was only me who thought it a total waste of a nice horse.

[chestnutmarebeware]

@Amberley

strongly disagree, there is a huge market for sensible, sound, easy-keeping riding horses and has been for literally centuries. Entire breeds have been developed to meet the need

And I strongly disagree with this. If you’re not breeding for perfection from the start, then to me that’s irresponsible breeding because you usually get a lesser-quality foal than the parents.

Breeders should aim for the best, because you’re almost certainly not going to get it but you will probably end up with a horse perfect for non-pros. But why start with mediocrity where the chances are even better that you’ll end up with a disappointing horse that struggles to find a safe home and job for its lifetime…

And I wasn’t solely talking about dressage horses. I’m talking about breeding ANY horse of any breed. Or dog. Or any other animal. If your goal isn’t perfection, then you should leave breeding to others.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

I have a couple of issues with your post. One is the assumption that a lesser quality foal will be lesser quality in a way that makes it “perfect for a non-pro”. I think most WB breeds (much less TBs, Arabs, ASBs, even Morgans!) are being bred spicier because it takes some spice/self motivation to get to the upper levels. BUT, if the talent doesn’t match the spice, where does that horse go? Now you have a less talented but hot horse in the hands of an ammy that wants to toodle around. Or can only ride 3 days per week because they work 3 jobs to pay for these ridiculous animals. Not a good match, IMHO.

You also speak of perfection as if it’s objective and as a dressage rider, I know that is just not the case. You mention dog breeding - look at Old English Bulldogs. These dogs, in the name of perfection, now can’t breathe, can’t poop, can’t have babies, without human intervention. Many have skin issues and food allergies to boot. But they were selectively bred to look a certain way and with those extremes come other, non-desirable traits.

I don’t think it’s as black and white as you hope it would be. I think perfection lies in what your goals are and what you enjoy.