Beware [edit]

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

I have a couple of issues with your post. One is the assumption that a lesser quality foal will be lesser quality in a way that makes it “perfect for a non-pro”. I think most WB breeds (much less TBs, Arabs, ASBs, even Morgans!) are being bred spicier because it takes some spice/self motivation to get to the upper levels. BUT, if the talent doesn’t match the spice, where does that horse go? Now you have a less talented but hot horse in the hands of an ammy that wants to toodle around. Or can only ride 3 days per week because they work 3 jobs to pay for these ridiculous animals. Not a good match, IMHO.

You also speak of perfection as if it’s objective and as a dressage rider, I know that is just not the case. You mention dog breeding - look at Old English Bulldogs. These dogs, in the name of perfection, now can’t breathe, can’t poop, can’t have babies, without human intervention. Many have skin issues and food allergies to boot. But they were selectively bred to look a certain way and with those extremes come other, non-desirable traits.

I don’t think it’s as black and white as you hope it would be. I think perfection lies in what your goals are and what you enjoy.

[chestnutmarebeware]

No, I believe that unless you’re breeding for the highest-quality animal (knowing that 99% of those offspring will fall short), then it’s irresponsible. The world doesn’t need more horses (or dogs) purposely-bred to be mediocre.

If that’s what someone wants (i.e. NOT a world-beater), then there’s plenty of animals out there to choose from without amateur breeders intentionally producing more of them.

And BTW, “world-beater bloodlines” doesn’t equal “unrideable except by a pro”. That may sometimes be the case, but it’s not a foregone conclusion.

Sorry you disagree, but you asked for opinions. And this is mine.

[Warmblood1]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

I have a couple of issues with your post. One is the assumption that a lesser quality foal will be lesser quality in a way that makes it “perfect for a non-pro”

What qualities would make a lesser quality foal perfect for an amateur?

Also, if you are not breeding for the top of your sport, what is it that the sire and dam are lacking? Are you forfeiting conformation or temperament by purposely not breeding for the top of a sport? I’m not understanding what one would purposely breed to NOT be an upper level prospect.

[Amberley]

@chestnutmarebeware

Breeders should aim for the best, because you’re almost certainly not going to get it but you will probably end up with a horse perfect for non-pros.

That comes across as really naive. Horses bred to be top performers in sport disciplines are often hotter, more physically fragile and bigger than the average owner wants. We’ve seen it over and over again in hyper focused breeding programs: halter horses, racing, trotting, now dressage.

Jumping bred horses might have more utility to the average rider. But I can tell you that I look at dozens of young horses every year and 90% are too hot or fizzy and too untalented to be of any use to me as resale prospects. American breeders of WBs are often completely out of touch with what people want. Most of them can’t even ride the horses they breed themselves. Otoh reputable breeders of ponies, fox hunters and show hunters for the ammie market typically sell out of young stock every year. .

[Warmblood1]

@chestnutmarebeware

world-beater bloodlines” doesn’t equal “unrideable except by a pro”.

Yes, exactly. You don’t have to produce a hot and spicy pepper to have an upper level prospect. You can absolutely have upper level talent and ammy friendly temperament.

[chestnutmarebeware]

So I take it you donate money to rescues for all the casually-bred horses that can’t find homes because there are too many already?

[Amberley]

This is the same argument dog breeders make. And frankly I wouldn’t take an AKC dog for free. The health issues are horrendous due to breeding for type and competition.

I ride and I used to train. I still produce young horses. There are just as many physically compromised or poorly conformed but fizzy and therefore fairly useless WBs with sport bloodlines that will end up in bad situations as there are other breeds. At least a stock horse type or draft cross can usually be a lesson or trail horse if it has physical limitations.

[Montanas_Girl]

@chestnutmarebeware

No, I believe that unless you’re breeding for the highest-quality animal (knowing that 99% of those offspring will fall short), then it’s irresponsible.

This assumes that there is only ONE definition of “highest quality animal”, and that is simply not the case.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

Except that, in dressage (my wheelhouse), what is being rewarded in the show ring is huge gaits (that an ammy can’t sit) on a huge horse (that an ammy is afraid of) that leans more toward tension then relaxation (that an ammy doesn’t know how to deal with). I’m not saying it’s impossible to breed a quiet UL dressage prospect. I’m saying that trends and “what’s in fashion” changes the breeding goals in a lot of these programs and all of a sudden, all the foals on the ground have these qualities.

I never said or implied that I wasn’t breeding for horses capable of upper level work. In fact, I stated the opposite. Sound in mind and body is all it takes to get to UL dressage work.

[thereadinghorse]

It‘s really interesting to read this from my point if view.

WBs are the most common horse breed in my country and most of the different breeds originated here (Hannoverian, Holstein, Oldenburg, Westphalian, Trakehner, Württemberger, DSP, Bayer, Rheinland, Hesse etc.).

Most breeders I know don’t breed for GP. They breed for a horse best suited to the aimed purpose. Everyone knows, that there’s no way to breed for GP and get constant results. Of course there’s this „fancy breeding“ but there’s even a bigger part of people just trying to breed good quality horses which can be handled by regular people. Many people don’t want those fancy bred horses anymore. Most ammies over here look for solid bred horses that have their head in the right place. This doesn’t mean, they have to have a different pedigree. I myself ride a halfsibling to many internationally successful horses (Codex One, Chipmunk FRH etc.) so the „ammie“ horse isn’t necessarily another breed or another pedigree.

But than again standards seem to be very different. Looking at some horses I know of which got sold to the US few months ago (into big HJ barns). Those horses weren’t bad. Neither bred nor ridden. Both were mismanaged and didn’t work out for the owner. As to, the owner wasn’t consistent enough with them and overestimated their own riding abilities, so the horses were sold for huge amounts of money (like 50 to 100k) into the US. Whereas over here you would have been struggling to sell them for more than 20k.

It’s common knowledge here, that if you have a horse, that could be used as HJ and you want to make some extra money, just try to sell it overseas. Because „those stupid Amys“ will buy it. Plus the likelihood of it being returned to you is close to zero. Please don’t be offended. It’s just what’s being said and done over here…

[Montanas_Girl]

Every breeding involves compromise. All horses have flaws, and anyone who thinks their mare or stallion is perfect has no business breeding. As breeders, we have to prioritize and weigh the strengths and weaknesses of our horses and their prospective matches.

I will not compromise at all on disposition, but I will accept minor flaws in conformation, athleticism, size, type, etc. Because disposition is THE most important trait, in my opinion, for any horse. This does not mean that I will breed any old horse that happens to have a good mind. But I don’t care if I find myself with the second coming of ___ (insert icon of your sport here). If he or she doesn’t meet my disposition requirements, I will NOT breed that animal. And, having been involved in the horse industry for 30-something years across a wide variety of disciplines, I can confidently say that my definition of a “good disposition” is wildly different from what most sport horse oriented riders, trainers, and breeders call a “good disposition”. That’s fine, as we are all allowed to make our own choices and priorities.

I take exception, however, to being told that I’m breeding “substandard” horses just because I have a different hierarchy of desired traits for my breeding program than those of someone breeding for an entirely different market.

The reason I have a waiting list for my foals, by the way, is their brains. Yes, it helps that they are pretty and athletic, too. But people want them because they are kind, engaging, trainable, people-oriented, and SAFE. And if you think that can be found in the average rescue/auction/Craigslist/Facebook purchase, then see my previous comment about my definition of good minded vs. the sport horse definition.

[fivestrideline]

This is an interesting discussion. Since I’m a hunter rider for the most part, here are my thoughts:

Things that make a top hunter:

• careful with a back cracking jump that really isn’t easy to stay with (I know people who have tripled gym time and hired personal trainers just to be able to stay with their new horse’s jump)
• rather looky (produces the knees to nose jump consistently)
• bigger movers that are more uphill than they may appear (a gappy distance to a maxed out 4’ oxer with what seems like 3’ of fill before the front rail - from a metronome canter - ain’t no joke)
  All of these factors take a well trained and experienced rider to get that horse around a course quietly, invisibly finding their spots on a long rein over Horse Eating Hunter Fill.

Things that don’t make a good 2’6" or 3’ Adult hunter:

• most of that

It makes sense that there is a market for the type of horse your average amateur wants: safe, sane, sound. I do not think breeding sub-par animals just to get an amateur friendly brain is what people are saying. I think that you have to start with the brain first, and it’s better to sacrifice some athleticism and a lot of flash for longevity and soundness. No one wants a neuro and lame 8YO, no matter how pretty.

What I got stuck on in the OP was the budget thing - what is “affordable” for the average person buying youngstock or otherwise? $10k? $30k? More? Less? Honestly, shelling out 5 figures for a non-pro hobby is crazy talk to most people (boat and car folks being somewhat an exception). And most people don’t have to feed and house their sports equipment for 30 years regardless of interest or competitiveness. One can totally breed top quality animals with amateur friendly brains - but “affordable” isn’t necessarily going to describe them.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

I agree that “affordable” is also a subjective term. For the 1%, Valegro is affordable. I would love to be able to stay in the 4 figures for unstarted, low 5s for the basics put on. If they stay with me longer than that, I would price based on training and suitability for the given discipline.

I also agree that to non-horsey people, we are all nuts for how much we spend on these critters!

[clanter]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

I also agree that to non-horsey people, we are all nuts for how much we spend on these critters!

well, according to a Synchrony study, the lifetime cost of care of a dog ranges anywhere from $20,000 to $55,000. For cats this cost averages between $15,000 and $45,000 . These costs include first year expenses, food, health insurance, end-of-life care and more.

https://petwisevet.com/lifetime-cost-of-pet-ownership/#:~:text=Well%2C%20according%20to%20the%20aforementioned,of-life%20care%20and%20more.

my wife spent $14,000 on a gastropexy surgery on her German Shepherd Dog which kind out prices a colic horse surgery

[fivestrideline]

Right… not pocket change.

But, seeing as several threads recently have purported that for MOST horse owners it is tough to get the monthly costs under $1000, plus purchase price and vet bills and “special” circumstances, it’s a whole different ballgame.

$12k/year, for 25 years, is $300,000 for the life of a horse. Many live longer, cost more, and inevitably have outstanding vet events. Now add purchase price, tack, equipment, lessons/trail ride trips/shows, and you can easily spend $500k on the basic keep and use of a local show horse or trail partner.

I’m going to ignore my own math now, thanks. I choose happiness

[Scribbler]

As far as “rescue” horses, I follow the rescue groups local and regional to me here in Canada. I would say it’s about impossible to source a rescue horse that is sound sane and broke. The horse will be sweet pretty and trained but you have to “manage navicular.” The horse will be sound and sane but a grade yearling in the fugly stage. Etc.

Things may be different in the US but where I live it’s vanishingly rare to find a rescue horse that I would want to take on as a project. Because if he’s got any cash value or is useful as a care lease, he doesn’t make it into the rescue pipeline.

North America does not have the depth and breadth of WB breeding as Germany and WB in the pedigree is an automatic extra $$$.

On the other hand there are certainly enough mediocre WB horses here, or WB x TB and registered something like Canadian Sport Horse because the OTTB mare isn’t accepted by any WB registry.

When I watch the Pony Club moms (usually horsey themselves) sourcing Trade Up horses for their growing teen daughters, they are coming back with various junior appropriate WBxTB, TB (not fresh OT), QH, QHxTB, etc. Some registered WB in some regustry. These aren’t dressage specific, though, more focused on jumping.

Other mixes I have seen make nice horses are Iberian x WB, Iberian x TB, QH x Friesian, QH x ASB.

My guess from a breeders perspective is that it doesn’t necessarily cost less to breed a meh horse than a s superstar if you are doing it right. But the sales price will be less. That said, most smaller breeders are not going to be creating top prospects and even if they did luck out with the frozen semen on their nice enough mare, they aren’t placed to market and sell the foal into the top tier where it will be recognized.

Dressage is tricky too in that a talented horse that falls into the hands of a crap low end dressage program ends up moving and acting crappy, stilted, getting repetitive strain injuries, etc

[blue_heron]

I have to admit I don’t understand a lot of the back and forth and twisted panties on this thread.

There is an incredible need for “amateur-friendly” and teenager-friendly horses in the US. If I had a dollar for every over-horsed teen or amateur I’ve come across, I’d have enough to buy one of their nice horses. I know tons of adults who want a horse they can do some dressage with one day and then take on the trail the next. But not all amateurs are created equal, and an amateur who wants to dabble in the upper levels and try for their USDF medals is completely different than an amateur who wants to win the Grand Prix in Wellington. I’d so much rather see the former on a plain warmblood or a draft or QH cross than an OTTB or WB that scares them while they dump thousands into vet bills and can’t sell because the horse isn’t sound.

Many people can’t ride the “quirky but talented” horse even if the price is slashed. Some people can’t buy a sane horse regardless of how much money they spend on it. And FWIW, I think most rescues are scams and telling riders with shallow pockets that they should consider an off-breed or OTTB (God forbid I speak negatively of a TB) is condescending.

Overall, I’m much more concerned about breeders like Kate Shearer who completely ignore breed standard and people irresponsibly breeding weird Friesian and DHH crosses and marketing them as purpose-bred dressage horses with price tags similar to horses imported from Europe than I am about someone who breeds amateur-appropriate warmbloods. There is a market for sane sporthorses in the US without the extravagant movement that often comes with neck and back issues and questionable soundness later in life.

[exvet]

Regardless of which breed or breed cross you choose to go with, a couple of well learned caveats I would recommend keeping in the back of your mind for your program.

1. Breed type to type, in other words, look at the phenotype of the animal in front of you. While you may want to produce something with a shorter back or longer femur, yada yada, make sure what you choose to breed to each other truly do complement each other. Other than a tweak/slight change here or there which is still always a gamble making sure that the overall balance is (I’ll say parallel) will decrease your chances of getting something that was put together by committee. The worse crossbred I’ve seen which are more than fugly but conformationally and often functionally disproportionate occurred when two nice animals were bred but one was big-boned and solid with a post on each corner and the other refined, far more delicate, etc. I chose my ‘other breed’ mares based on what I knew would mesh well with my Welsh Cob stallion(s).

2. Even if you’re breeding for a phenotype by use of cross-breeding know what’s in the background of your breeding stock at least 4-5 generations back if at all possible. This will also help you in lessening the risk of some surprises.

3. Glean through USDF All-Breeds awards and results database of those breeds you’re choosing to cross as well as proven crosses of the same. This certainly helped me in selecting breeding stock.

4. I rode either the beast or the parents of the beasts that I chose for my program just to see what they were really like. I also followed siblings et al to see what had been done with them.

5. Make sure you put fantastic handling on your offspring - they should be able to load, lead, haul, clip, be handled all over, tie, cross-tie, and be conditioned to accept lots of stimuli. By doing so you’ll know how to match up perspective buyers to your offspring to give them [both] the best chance to succeed and likely keep costs down by selling younger rather than older. Though for those who stick around, I recommend getting them backed and into competition with an amateur showing. If you’re breeding for amateurs then an amateur should be able to ride it/show it/handle it - Proof is in the pudding.

6. Screen your potential buyers - there’s nothing worse than mismatching owner and produce (youngstock). It can tarnish the name of your program/stallion should you choose to stand one/and cause possible harm to a labor of love, the horse in question.

7. Again, proof is in the pudding. Show/performance records of your breeding stock and what you produce/train/keep speaks volumes.

I don’t think your goals are unattainable; but, I will say that it requires fortitude, flexibility, lots of research, and the ability to burn your candle at both ends. Good luck (always helps). I have never regretted the sacrifices or choices I made to do what I had accomplished. I never got rich at it but then I went into it as a hobby and thanks to my full-time job was able to enjoy a decent run.

[bingbingbing]

@Amberley

And frankly I wouldn’t take an AKC dog for free. The health issues are horrendous due to breeding for type and competition.

My what a broad brush you paint with. I should just let this go. But your comment is very naive if you truly believe that there are no AKC breeders breeding for the breed standard (which is very much NOT just about conformation) and doing health testing. I breed AKC working dogs, one well planned litter every 2-3 years. And yes, they work and are AKC Champions with all of their health clearances.
Yes, puppy mills can produce AKC puppies. But they are generally not breeding for type and competition. Nor are they usually doing health clearances. It is a puppy buyer’s responsibility to do their research.

@Scribbler

On the other hand there are certainly enough mediocre WB horses here, or WB x TB and registered something like Canadian Sport Horse because the OTTB mare isn’t accepted by any WB registry.

Since when? Both Oldenburg registries accept thoroughbreds. And others as well. Unless something has changed in the last three years since I bred a horse. (Both parents of mine were WB’s)

[Scribbler]

I have no idea. Maybe the sires aren’t Oldenberg? I have no idea what the chain of events is that leads a horse to be called “WBxTB” but registered Canadian Sport Horse. Or Canadian Warmblood. Or equivalent in the US. I don’t know anyone personally breeding them to know how this happens. And the ammie owners that happily buy them don’t know or care about how the horses did or didn’t get registered.

I would assume a savvy breeder would go for the most reputable registry available to them.

But certainly such horses exist in CWB and CSH, which exist primarily to account for horses that don’t make it into the European WB NA franchises.