Hi All,
I have a 14 year old QH Arab cross gelding that I’ve done just about everything with (barrels, jumpers, dressage, foxhunting, etc). We’ve always had some trouble with him, hollowing out and speeding up but I’ve been working him in a full cheek dr. bristol bit which he enjoys and carries himself beautifully with and going long and low with barely any effort from me. However due to his age he’s required to show in a shanked bit for western pleasure (just small local shows but the judges follow QH guidelines for all horses). Today I tried him in a medium port curb with loose cheeks (they swivel) and he began rushing and hollowing out. 
He goes wonderfully with the dr bristol I’ve been training him with and I am looking for suggestions for something that will give similar results that I will be able to use in the show ring.
So he doesn’t speed up and hollow out in the Dr. Bristol?
That is a very harsh bit! What bit did you have him in when you two were doing dressage?
Was the medium-port curb the first curb you’ve ever tried him in?
I’m curious as to why you want to try WP with him after doing all those other things.
Do you want to do peanut-rolling WP with the four-beat lope? Or old-fashioned WP regular walk/jog/lope? As you know, WP horses move very differently from dressage horses, and if you’ve gotten him to where he can go long and low, as well as collect and carry himself, I’m not sure why you’d want to change to WP.
Have you and he ever done western dressage? Not “cowboy” dressage; proper western dressage?
(It’s fun. 
And it doesn’t have any arbitrary rule that a horse has to go in a curb just because he’s a certain age.)
[QUOTE=skb1994;8362780]
Hi All,
I have a 14 year old QH Arab cross gelding that I’ve done just about everything with (barrels, jumpers, dressage, foxhunting, etc). We’ve always had some trouble with him, hollowing out and speeding up but I’ve been working him in a full cheek dr. bristol bit which he enjoys and carries himself beautifully with and going long and low with barely any effort from me. However due to his age he’s required to show in a shanked bit for western pleasure (just small local shows but the judges follow QH guidelines for all horses). Today I tried him in a medium port curb with loose cheeks (they swivel) and he began rushing and hollowing out. 
He goes wonderfully with the dr bristol I’ve been training him with and I am looking for suggestions for something that will give similar results that I will be able to use in the show ring.[/QUOTE]
It is hard to answer your question, because we may not even be on the same page with what we think you are doing and what you really are doing.
How good he is going for you with what you have, according to you, may not be what someone with a different set of concepts about how a horse goes and bits and their action has.
In case you don’t know, this picture has the names of parts of curb bits, so we are all using the same names:
https://www.coolhorse.com/blog/parts-western-curb-bit
With snaffles, true snaffles, without leverage action, with direct contact with the mouth without shanks and riding with contact, you normally use both hands, until you are transitioning to one handed riding, preparing for introducing a curb.
It depends on how you are using whatever you use and train the horse to it thru the necessary steps how the horse will respond.
If you always ride with a true snaffle and two handed, putting a plain, curb bit and trying that, without having taught the horse to ride with less contact first, may just get you a puzzled response from the horse.
As for swivel shanks, also called “pre-signal” bits, some horses don’t like them because they tend to be “noisy”, move so much horses have to learn to ignore those random movements and decide when it is the rider’s hands signaling with them.
If you are working with a good trainer, they should show you where to go from where you are.
If your horse is well trained already, no resistances anywhere, then trying a plain, short shanked/purchase made bit could be a first bit to try, but any bit change will take getting the horse ready for the different action first, something you may not have done, we can’t tell.
[QUOTE=RPM;8362945]
So he doesn’t speed up and hollow out in the Dr. Bristol?
That is a very harsh bit! What bit did you have him in when you two were doing dressage?
Was the medium-port curb the first curb you’ve ever tried him in?
I’m curious as to why you want to try WP with him after doing all those other things.
Do you want to do peanut-rolling WP with the four-beat lope? Or old-fashioned WP regular walk/jog/lope? As you know, WP horses move very differently from dressage horses, and if you’ve gotten him to where he can go long and low, as well as collect and carry himself, I’m not sure why you’d want to change to WP.
Have you and he ever done western dressage? Not “cowboy” dressage; proper western dressage?
(It’s fun. And it doesn’t have any arbitrary rule that a horse has to go in a curb just because he’s a certain age.)[/QUOTE]
I’ve done pretty much everything with him, he’s no GP dressage horse by any means, more of my versatility king lol. He’s recently decided he likes going slow and I change our discipline to suit what he wants to do. For dressage I used an eggbutt with an oval mouthpiece. He’s always been more of a western type horse, we had fun goofing around with dressage but I never showed him in it.
I consider a bit only as harsh as the hands holding the reins. With the dr bristol I ride him on a draped rein and only do a very gentle outside rein half halt when his head comes up. I barely touch his mouth. And he grabs this bit out of my hands when I go to bridle him he loves it that much. And yes old style WP, I don’t want to ride a hobbling lope… he’s always had the gaits for WP but never been willing to lower his head and neck for it. At this point I’m trying to gear him up for WP and maybe huntseat if he seems to enjoy it. 
[QUOTE=Bluey;8363027]
It is hard to answer your question, because we may not even be on the same page with what we think you are doing and what you really are doing.
How good he is going for you with what you have, according to you, may not be what someone with a different set of concepts about how a horse goes and bits and their action has.
In case you don’t know, this picture has the names of parts of curb bits, so we are all using the same names:
https://www.coolhorse.com/blog/parts-western-curb-bit
With snaffles, true snaffles, without leverage action, with direct contact with the mouth without shanks and riding with contact, you normally use both hands, until you are transitioning to one handed riding, preparing for introducing a curb.
It depends on how you are using whatever you use and train the horse to it thru the necessary steps how the horse will respond.
If you always ride with a true snaffle and two handed, putting a plain, curb bit and trying that, without having taught the horse to ride with less contact first, may just get you a puzzled response from the horse.
As for swivel shanks, also called “pre-signal” bits, some horses don’t like them because they tend to be “noisy”, move so much horses have to learn to ignore those random movements and decide when it is the rider’s hands signaling with them.
If you are working with a good trainer, they should show you where to go from where you are.
If your horse is well trained already, no resistances anywhere, then trying a plain, short shanked/purchase made bit could be a first bit to try, but any bit change will take getting the horse ready for the different action first, something you may not have done, we can’t tell.[/QUOTE]
Currently riding him in the dr bristol he is carrying himself the way I want him to, for old style WP; no peanut rolling 4 beat lope. He has a level topline with his nose slightly in front of the vertical. I am riding him on a draped rein and cueing with my legs and seat, and he is neck reining beautifully. When he starts hollowing out with the dr bristol I use a very gentle outside rein half halt and bump him forward a little with my legs and he collects right up and we carry on with a draped rein. What I am looking for is a WP legal bit that he might like that would work similarly to a dr bristol.
I might add that the first 8 years of his life he was mostly a trail horse whose owner thought she’d make him into a reiner. She put all kinds of huge correction bits in his mouth and used all sorts of gadgets, mostly draw reins. When I got him his brain was pretty fried. I used him as just a trail horse for a year so he could relax and wind down and then restarted him with dressage training pyramid to get his mind back on track.
I have no intentions of him ever becoming a world champion WP pleasure horse, we’re mostly going to be going to local schooling and 4H shows. Going for all around champ english and western at the small shows will make me happy.
[QUOTE=skb1994;8363184]
I might add that the first 8 years of his life he was mostly a trail horse whose owner thought she’d make him into a reiner. She put all kinds of huge correction bits in his mouth and used all sorts of gadgets, mostly draw reins. When I got him his brain was pretty fried. I used him as just a trail horse for a year so he could relax and wind down and then restarted him with dressage training pyramid to get his mind back on track.
I have no intentions of him ever becoming a world champion WP pleasure horse, we’re mostly going to be going to local schooling and 4H shows. Going for all around champ english and western at the small shows will make me happy.[/QUOTE]
That helps, sounds like your horse already knows about curbs and should have a made mouth, is not a colt trying to transition to a curb.
Sorry, I would not know what is legal for pleasure classes, but maybe get some of those bits and keep trying until you find one you both like may work.
That’s what you would expect, but it seems with a curb bit that rather than being softer and more responsive he puts his head up and tries to run… I’m not sure if the old owner jerked on his face so much that he is afraid of the curb (I watched her ‘train’ and she has rough and fast hands) and its something I need to work on or if there’s a different mouthpiece he might prefer.
[QUOTE=skb1994;8363242]
That’s what you would expect, but it seems with a curb bit that rather than being softer and more responsive he puts his head up and tries to run… I’m not sure if the old owner jerked on his face so much that he is afraid of the curb (I watched her ‘train’ and she has rough and fast hands) and its something I need to work on or if there’s a different mouthpiece he might prefer.[/QUOTE]
I would still think a hands on trainer on such situations would be a way to find out more, get a second opinion and then make a re-training plan from that, so you can show where you want as that discipline requires.
I would also check his face and mouth good, in case there is something there interfering with a curb, that was not with your other bit.
I suggest looking at the QH rules your local judges follow. The rules will list bits that are show-legal for WP.
Also ask your trainer what s/he suggests. And other people who show WP and hunt seat in your local area, what bit do they use in the HUS classes; what bit do they use in WP? I admire the horses and riders at the western shows that do both HUS and WP, but I don’t get why QH-type HUS is so very different from HUS in the rest of the huntseat world. To my uneducated eye the HUS horses go just like the WP horses, only in hunter tack. You never see that way of going in regular HUS classes. It is like a totally different discipline.
There is a consensus of opinion here on COTH that a horse should be allowed to do a job he enjoys doing, letting him tell the rider what work he likes and wants to do. If a horse is stressed out by a certain bit, maybe he shouldn’t be asked to do work that requires that bit. And I am opposed to any discipline requring a certain bit based on a horse’s age rather than his experience. But I can definitely understand wanting to aim for all-round champion in both HUS and WP!
Keep working with him gently. I’ve made a lot of bridle horses (mostly Arabians and Arabian crosses) and when going to the “bridle” you just go slowly. Make sure you are driving him up into it, and not riding him front to back. Just taught a 29 year old to carry a mild curb this year for a student to show. Be patient and kind and you can do it!
Also make sure he is happy with how tight the curb chain or strap is and the material it’s made of. My event horse really resented the chain on a Pelham bit until I swapped it out for a leather strap or wrapped the chain in vetwrap. If the curb chain is snug, it will catch him in the chin with that even a light rein contact which may cause him to toss his head up.
