Bitless Bridle/Hackamore Issues?

[CERT]

I had someone ask me about the possibility of a bitless set up interfering with the horse’s ability to recover from a trip. I figured the endurance crowd was more likely to have experience with the various bitless options out there from hackamores to cross-unders “bitless bits” and so forth.

My thinking is first: only if you’re hauling on the horse’s face, second: a bit wouldn’t help a horse rebalance either, especially if it has leverage.

I would think a hackamore with long shanks would be the most likely to cause an issue. What are your experiences and thoughts?

[Guilherme]

@CERT

I had someone ask me about the possibility of a bitless set up interfering with the horse’s ability to recover from a trip. I figured the endurance crowd was more likely to have experience with the various bitless options out there from hackamores to cross-unders “bitless bits” and so forth.

My thinking is first: only if you’re hauling on the horse’s face, second: a bit wouldn’t help a horse rebalance either, especially if it has leverage.

I would think a hackamore with long shanks would be the most likely to cause an issue. What are your experiences and thoughts?

I’m not sure I understand exactly what they are trying to fix.

G.

[Spirit_of_Clover]

I’m not sure how that would interfere at all, in fact I think it would be better. The horse could eat and drink well (without the bit interfering) and you don’t have to worry about the horse hurting it’s mouth when you drop the reins, ground tie, etc. I am a little bit bias though because, I only ride bitless and think that is best for the horse. Happy trails!

[CERT]

@Guilherme

I’m not sure I understand exactly what they are trying to fix.

G.

It is more of a “what if” than anything. IF the horse stumbles would the nose pressure from a bitless bridle be more likely to cause the horse to go all the way down over a bit that acts within the mouth?

[CERT]

@Spirit of Clover

I’m not sure how that would interfere at all, in fact I think it would be better. The horse could eat and drink well (without the bit interfering) and you don’t have to worry about the horse hurting it’s mouth when you drop the reins, ground tie, etc. I am a little bit bias though because, I only ride bitless and think that is best for the horse. Happy trails!

I mostly ride bitless as the sports I’m involved in don’t give much option to bitless (dressage and driving) otherwise I might bin them completely.

I would think if the horse stumbled the rider catching the horse with the reins would certainly be less painful bitless and allow the horse to focus on getting its feet back under it versus worrying about pain in its mouth as well as sorting out its balance.

[Spirit_of_Clover]

I agree, I don’t see why a bitless bridle would cause any problems as far as stumbling goes.

[Guilherme]

@CERT

It is more of a “what if” than anything. IF the horse stumbles would the nose pressure from a bitless bridle be more likely to cause the horse to go all the way down over a bit that acts within the mouth?

Maybe so and maybe not. Like any piece of tack the “tact” of the hand is more important than the shape of the item. The most innocuous looking thing can be an instrument of torture with the “right” rider.

That said, I’ve long avoided “bitless” rigs as they are very imprecise. They also have the vice of often not releasing when the rider relaxes the hand. I’ve seen more that one iteration where the leather “binds” if it gets wet, dirty, etc. Since they are applying pressure to sensitive places on the face I don’t see them as more humane than a properly fitted and used bit.

The last time we used a hackamore was with a horse that had serious mouth pathology issues as a result of “ham fisted” riding in a Walking Horse bit (twisted wire mouthpiece with 9" shanks). We knew of the problem when we bought him but the price was right so we thought that since he was pretty and forward we could work with him. After allowing a period of heeling we tried a very mild snaffle with a mullenmouth and we got a fine demonstration of “airs above the ground.” We worked with that horse for a full year and he would not take a bit. So we used a bosal to get him used to the idea that reins didn’t hurt and ultimately used a hackemore for riding. He had been pretty well trained before some doofus beat up his mouth but he was never the kind of horse you get any precision on.

A horse that stumbles once in a while is quite normal. If the ground is uneven it’s more normal. If the ground is a prepared arena floor it’s usually a sign of “operator error.” If the stumbling is frequent then it’s either a physical issue or poor riding (rough hands, poor rider balance, ill fitting saddle, mal-adjusted tack, etc.). You won’t fix any of that with a bitless device.

G.

[Scribbler]

When a horse stumbles the rider instinctively wants to fix it by picking up the horses head, or the horse hits the bit as he goes down.

I think though that leaving the head loose is going to help the horse regain balance easiest.

You can’t really ride on contact with anything bitless. So it works well for a well trained Western horse that neck reins and does a sliding stop off seat cues (my pony as a kid) but yes very imprecise for a horse that is meant to be going English and has a certain amount of basic dressage training (current horse).

[CERT]

@Guilherme

That said, I’ve long avoided “bitless” rigs as they are very imprecise. They also have the vice of often not releasing when the rider relaxes the hand. I’ve seen more that one iteration where the leather “binds” if it gets wet, dirty, etc. Since they are applying pressure to sensitive places on the face I don’t see them as more humane than a properly fitted and used bit.

…

A horse that stumbles once in a while is quite normal. If the ground is uneven it’s more normal. If the ground is a prepared arena floor it’s usually a sign of “operator error.” If the stumbling is frequent then it’s either a physical issue or poor riding (rough hands, poor rider balance, ill fitting saddle, mal-adjusted tack, etc.). You won’t fix any of that with a bitless device.

G.

If by bitless rig you are referring to the Dr. Cook’s then I would agree with you, but there are far more options out there now than just Dr. Cook’s invention that offer good release and much more precision. It’s not the market it was even ten years ago, which is pretty exciting.

I don’t even want to think of the damage a twisted wire could do with shanks that long. Eesh! I witnessed a horse just about lose his tongue flipping over in a shank bit. Knocked himself out and required stitches in his tongue. I can’t remember if the owner was able to ride him with a bit after it healed or not.

I definitely agree on the stumbling. I have a client horse who was a horrendous stumbler both under saddle and in harness until the owner (finally!) changed farriers and got his sheered heels sorted. Again, it isn’t necessarily a problem, but a question posed to me about the bridle’s action should the horse trip.

[CERT]

@Scribbler

When a horse stumbles the rider instinctively wants to fix it by picking up the horses head, or the horse hits the bit as he goes down.

I think though that leaving the head loose is going to help the horse regain balance easiest.

You can’t really ride on contact with anything bitless. So it works well for a well trained Western horse that neck reins and does a sliding stop off seat cues (my pony as a kid) but yes very imprecise for a horse that is meant to be going English and has a certain amount of basic dressage training (current horse).

I agree that the best thing to do is give the horse it’s head. The more I thought about it I remembered that trying to pull a horse’s head up (absolute elevation) more often than not ends up with the chest and base of the neck dropping further and would no doubt interfere with the horse’s ability to get its feet back under itself.

If you’re talking a shanked hackamore or bosal I do agree that those aren’t designed for consistent contact. Sidepulls, (some)cross-unders, wheel hacks, and others can be ridden with contact.

[Scribbler]

@CERT

I agree that the best thing to do is give the horse it’s head. The more I thought about it I remembered that trying to pull a horse’s head up (absolute elevation) more often than not ends up with the chest and base of the neck dropping further and would no doubt interfere with the horse’s ability to get its feet back under itself.

If you’re talking a shanked hackamore or bosal I do agree that those aren’t designed for consistent contact. Sidepulls, (some)cross-unders, wheel hacks, and others can be ridden with contact.

I ride in a sidepull sometimes and you can ride with contact without causing pain but I m not sure how effective that is because what do you actually have contact with? Most of what I use the snaffle for is about altering her balance. Except in an emergency or big argument I don’t use the reins much to stop or turn. I have used the side pull to get the horse to stretch to the bit and to collect but only because she already learned that in a snaffle. There isn’t the same connection as in the bit.

[Guilherme]

I come out of the gaited world. It’s well known there that a laterally gaited horse will perform the most dramatic gait while ridden in contact and sometimes very frank contact. The horse will use the bit to balance against. I’m not fully understanding the bio-mechanics of this but it’s really obvious if you watch such a horse correctly ridden. This does not work so well with a diagonally gaited horse. It does not work at all with bosals, hackemores, side-pulls, and (presumably) “bitless bridles.”

The gaited world, and most especially the laterally gaited world, also emphasizes the hand and the heel. The rest of the body, no so much. This is, in fact, a serious problem as it leads to grossly overbitting for “control” and lots of spurring to attain “impulsion.” I was trained to do this and did for a few years until I learned better.

When my gelding was a bit younger he went through a stage where he had trouble keeping his feet “straight” and would get “tanglefooted.” It’s not uncommon for young horses to do this. As he matured the tendency went away. During this time the hand was there, through the bit, to give him something to “lean” on and regain his balance and composure. I didn’t “pull” him up I gave him something to lean on while he pulled himself back to “center.” I’ve been riding him in a Myler Pelham with a comfort mouthpiece. Usually I just ride the snaffle; from time to time I’ll add the second set of reins as that permits a higher level of precision in some tasks. I’m toying with using a double bridle with bit and bradoon over the next year to see how that might work.

Bits are communication devices, not control devices. I’ve personally witnessed a Walker ride through a Walking Horse bit as described above and almost run away with his rider. The rider had NO lateral control with that bit and used a fence corner to stop. A snaffle bit is like an AM radio, usable in most circumstances but subject to being overridden by events… A curb is like an FM radio, more clear and easily heard and less subject to “atmospherics.” Bitless devices are like tin can telephones, useful under the right circumstances to access training that is there but of very limited utility in putting training there.

This discussion of bits does not mean we stop using balance, seat, and leg!!! In WAY too many of these discussions folks get lost in the defense of some device to the point they lose sight of the fact that you have to ride the whole horse, not just the head (or any other discrete part).

G.

[quietann]

On stumbling – my mare will stumble on rough ground, and I’ve noticed absolutely no difference between how she recovers when in her Little S hackamore vs. her eggbutt snaffle.

I’ve picked up riding again post-hand surgery and am using the Little S hackamore again. I have Dupuytren’s contracture, which basically has left me with “1 1/2 hands.” If the affected fingers do get involved, they’re going to be clumsy, and I’d rather have that affect my mare’s nose than her mouth.

I ride with long but not loose reins; she has a lot of dressage training but our dressage days are over. The hackamore is not as precise as a bit and I’m paying more attention to my legs and seat. Sensitive mare loves it. Can’t wait until our trails open in the spring!

[TMares]

Am I the only one who has conditioned themselves to slip the reins to the horse when they stumble? It’s not my first instinct to pull their head up at all- I recall a young horse getting fumble footed in a clinic setting on the rail, smack in front of the auditors - he went to both knees, I slipped him the reins, and as he recovered I just slipped them back into the right length (taking up the slack w/ my RH through my LH fingers) the auditors all laughed and noted that him almost face planting didn’t take me down with him…because I gave him his face to fix his balance, sat back and waited then helped him rebalance once up…

there is no way shape or form that a Little S or even a big mean hack can ‘cut their air off’ or mess up their ability to recover from a stumble. A tie down or snug martingale? Sure.

[Simbalism]

I ride my mare in a short shank hackamore. I mainly trail ride these days, but have not noticed any issues with a hackamore when my horse infrequently trips.

[quietann]

@TMares

Am I the only one who has conditioned themselves to slip the reins to the horse when they stumble? It’s not my first instinct to pull their head up at all- I recall a young horse getting fumble footed in a clinic setting on the rail, smack in front of the auditors - he went to both knees, I slipped him the reins, and as he recovered I just slipped them back into the right length (taking up the slack w/ my RH through my LH fingers) the auditors all laughed and noted that him almost face planting didn’t take me down with him…because I gave him his face to fix his balance, sat back and waited then helped him rebalance once up…

there is no way shape or form that a Little S or even a big mean hack can ‘cut their air off’ or mess up their ability to recover from a stumble. A tie down or snug martingale? Sure.

I seem to be someone who grips first, and then slips the reins if the mare doesn’t recover immediately. She’s gone to her knees maybe 3 times in 10 years – twice in the arena BTW – and I don’t know quite how it all works, but she’s been able to recover and I’ve stayed on, and only gathered the reins up at the end of it. I’ve had no training for this. It’s just what I do.

Brief experiments with martingales in the past have been … scary, to put it mildly. She was OK with a German martingale – in the arena only. Other martingales, forget it.

[CERT]

@Guilherme

Bits are communication devices, not control devices. I’ve personally witnessed a Walker ride through a Walking Horse bit as described above and almost run away with his rider. The rider had NO lateral control with that bit and used a fence corner to stop. A snaffle bit is like an AM radio, usable in most circumstances but subject to being overridden by events… A curb is like an FM radio, more clear and easily heard and less subject to “atmospherics.” Bitless devices are like tin can telephones, useful under the right circumstances to access training that is there but of very limited utility in putting training there.

This discussion of bits does not mean we stop using balance, seat, and leg!!! In WAY too many of these discussions folks get lost in the defense of some device to the point they lose sight of the fact that you have to ride the whole horse, not just the head (or any other discrete part).

G.

I am familair with gaited horses and have ridden them both bitted and bitless. The lateral gaits do seem to require some form of tension and even slight inversion in the back, which as you noted can be taken to the extreme with people holding the “brake” while putting the “gas pedal” to the floor.

I might argue about likening bitless in general to tin can telephones (except maybe the Dr. Cook’s … haven’t been fond of the feel of that one myself despite many people swearing by them), but I do agree that curb bits are designed for extremely subtle communication and it’s a shame more people don’t use them as they should be used!

I imagine any horseperson worth their salt understands that training controls the horse, not any single piece of tack or gadget!

[CERT]

@quietann

On stumbling – my mare will stumble on rough ground, and I’ve noticed absolutely no difference between how she recovers when in her Little S hackamore vs. her eggbutt snaffle.

I’ve picked up riding again post-hand surgery and am using the Little S hackamore again. I have Dupuytren’s contracture, which basically has left me with “1 1/2 hands.” If the affected fingers do get involved, they’re going to be clumsy, and I’d rather have that affect my mare’s nose than her mouth.

I ride with long but not loose reins; she has a lot of dressage training but our dressage days are over. The hackamore is not as precise as a bit and I’m paying more attention to my legs and seat. Sensitive mare loves it. Can’t wait until our trails open in the spring!

Thanks for the input! I figured the bitless bridle probably would not make much difference in how the horse recovered from a stumble, but it is nice having evidence outside of my own experience.

[Guilherme]

@CERT

I am familair with gaited horses and have ridden them both bitted and bitless. The lateral gaits do seem to require some form of tension and even slight inversion in the back, which as you noted can be taken to the extreme with people holding the “brake” while putting the “gas pedal” to the floor.

The Marchador has three distinct ways of going in the marcha picada (a broken pace), the marcha batida (a broken trot), and marcha de centro (functionally similar to the running walk of a 1930s era Walker). The picada will be a neutral to slightly inverted back while the batida will be neutral to a very slight bascule. The center march back will be neutral. A more lateral gait will be smoother but less maneuverable; a diagonal gait less smooth but more maneuverable. The center gait is a compromise, but in this case “compromise” is a Good Word, not a Bad Word!!! Each will be ridden slightly differently but the differences are relatively minor. It’s one reason we like the breed. We had our fill of the problems associated with Walkers many years ago. The horses have great temperaments (they have to in order to survive the abuses heaped on them) but have some real large scale conformation issues due to decades of bad breeding practices by the show industry that LOVES the extreme presentation of the Big Lick.

I might argue about likening bitless in general to tin can telephones (except maybe the Dr. Cook’s … haven’t been fond of the feel of that one myself despite many people swearing by them), but I do agree that curb bits are designed for extremely subtle communication and it’s a shame more people don’t use them as they should be used!

The history geek in me has to point out that before the bit there were multiple “bitless” systems in use by many horse cultures. As soon as the bit was invented it became virtually universal within a very short period of time. The reason is that it works and it works well without imposing any long term cost to the horse.* To me to give up a perfectly useful and nominally harmless system for one that does not work as well and is a throwback to a time millennia ago before horsemen got smart and invented bits is a complete mystery. I have watched some bitless competitors in multiple sports do well. I’ve seen completely bridleless horses compete. But the folks who do this are professionals who have a deep background in riding, a high level of natural skill, and the time and money to go that route. For most of us such a program is a “non-starter” if only on the issue of time.

The same is true, in this context, for spurs, shoes stirrups, and rigid tree saddles.

I concur with your thoughts on the curb bit. It’s a communication device not a disk brake. And we select the bit that will give us the best communication with the horse under us. Our last stallion, sold when we closed down our breeding operation due to age (humine, not equine ) was ridden in a full double bridle with bit and bradoon. He was very well trained in Brazil and was an easy ride if you rode him correctly. But if you tried to ride him a simple snaffle he’d laugh at you! A couple of prior owners had some pretty “hard hands” and was a bit “hard mouthed.” When you started you did a few circles and turns and he’d do OK. Then he’d decide to see if you were serious. It took one application of curb (and usually one serious application of the spur) to convince him you WERE serious and the rest of the ride would be just fine. He was a good horse but had a strong temperament. He wasn’t going to dump you intentionally but you can get unhorsed by a disobedient horse as easily as from a fractious one. If you didn’t ride him he was going to ride YOU!!!

I imagine any horseperson worth their salt understands that training controls the horse, not any single piece of tack or gadget!

Indeed. And we impart and access that training with the devices we select to use. If we are smart we pick devices that work quickly, efficiently, and without imposing unreasonable or long term negative consequences for the horse. Using leather and iron as long term control devices is likely not going to be successful. They get the same analysis as Xenophon gave the whip and spur. Using them as “bridges” to get from here to there, as required, can be quite successful.

As always, you ride the horse under you, not the one under me or in a book on on a video.

G.

*I’m very aware of the “humane” arguments against the bit. I’ve read multiple claims (by the Dr. Cook folks and others) about how they injure the horse and impair it’s natural abilities. I find the arguments unpersuasive. I’ve seen the damage bits can do and I have no respect for those who use them in such a fashion. I’ve also seen them used to attain a “frame” vice access training (think rollkur). Our stallion suffered significantly from poor bit use. But I’ve got an almost 24 year old mare, now retired, who I’ve ridden in a bosal, hackemore, side pull, snaffle (multiple mouthpiece styles), curb (same comment on mouthpieces), pelham (ditto on the mouthpiece) and a double bridle (Army M1909 Bit and Bradoon). She has no mouth pathology, no injuries to any part of her body, nor any temperament issues cause by any device. She performs best with the pelham and four reins. So that’s what I rode her in in the last 15 years I actively rode her. Save for some arthritis due to her age she’d be in regular work today. She lives out in a big field with her mates and gets on pretty good for old, gray mare!!!

[beau159]

@CERT

I had someone ask me about the possibility of a bitless set up interfering with the horse’s ability to recover from a trip.

If a horse’s trips, it’s up to their BODY to recover (aka their feet that they just tripped over). It has nothing to do what you have in their mouth, so I don’t see how your headgear would make any difference at all.