I have no experience with or support for this bitless bridle, but did see it the other day and there is a driving demo:
nurtural bitless bridle
http://www.nurturalhorse.com/Nurtural_Driving.html
The only person I know who drives bitless uses a scawbrig bridle which puts pressure on the front and back of the nose.
Sort of like this one:
http://www.shopwiki.co.uk/detail/d=Draft_Bitless_Bridle_for_Driving/
Definitely not a driving expert.For something to do this past winter while I had my TB mare on a riding break, I decided to try long lining her. I ride her in an english jumping hackamore, so decided to use that to try long lining as it was on her bridle. I have no problem steering to the extent that I can “drive” her thru the small entry gate to the riding ring, circle fences,and over raised cavelletti poles. If I had true driving equipment, I wouldn’t hesitate to try her bitless. I think the bridle Thomas gave the link for looked interesting.
^ Long reining is NOT driving.
No comparison!
You want to try driving without a bit, then good luck to you.
Please tell me when you are going to drive bit-less so I can be sure and clear the area. Nothing like having a 500 to 1500 pound missile attached to a spooked horse who is so wonderful that they do not need a bit. Sorry this is just nuckin futs! 
^ Now come on LF. Just stop mincing your words and say what you think 
[QUOTE=LostFarmer;4348885]
Please tell me when you are going to drive bit-less so I can be sure and clear the area. Nothing like having a 500 to 1500 pound missile attached to a spooked horse who is so wonderful that they do not need a bit. Sorry this is just nuckin futs! [/QUOTE]
Did you even read the first post?
She doesn’t want to try bitless because the horse is “wonderful”, she wants to try it because the mini has a DEFORMED MOUTH that may not be physically able to comfortably carry a bit.
I totally understand the use of bits when driving, but in extreme cases like this, you have to work with what you’ve got.
Have you contacted Dr. Cook’s? I believe they custom make a bitless bridle. They are super helpful.
When thinking bitless, you have to keep in mind that DRIVING a horse is NOT like RIDING a horse. Aids available to the Driver are few, so they depend on the bit, and HOW IT WORKS with the direct reins, from the horse’s mouth. Training for the Driving horse is usually much more extensive than with the ridden animal, again because Driving horse MUST be much more dependable with those few aids.
Ridden horse and the way reins work, ability of Rider to stick hands out sideways, use legs and body weight in the saddle, greatly change the WAYS horse can be asked and controlled.
Driven horse has ONLY the straight rein pull from bit to breastcollar or hames terret ring. No available sideways pull to bend head outward with the rein, as Rider does with their arms.
We often hear of folks with unique methods, taking ideas from other disciplines, using in other ways. They get big write-ups, brag on the new ideas as step up from “conventional” training. What we don’t hear is how often they have problems in normal use, ridden or driven, that we would not find acceptable. The often spectacular failure of equipment or method, at a crucial place during a drive. Then they just fade off into the past as a memory. I have memories of a number of ideas that were loudly promoted as “more special or improved” over the old-fashioned methods. Sorry to say those folks all seemed to end up in wrecks, even the professionals.
I am sure there are people who drive bitless, do it a lot with their individual animal. Harness makers will make whatever you pay them to produce. Just not a mainstream method at this point, and bitless is not a driving method I would recommend to anyone. Mechanically, bitless does not appear to work well with harness and how we want Driving horses to go along.
If you are going to try bitless, than even moreso than with a bit I would advise you train that mini like a blue ribbon obedience or seeing-eye dog - to obey every verbal command, no matter what is going on, on the spot, on the instant. Even a small horse is a powerful creature if frightened. And they can still run faster than you. You don’t need that - not only for your own safety, but for the spectators, dogs, children, cars and other things that might be in your path if mini panics.
I’ve rarely been to a driving event with bits where there weren’t a few near-miss experiences whether because of inadequate training or just unforeseen problems: equipment failures, heck, even problems domino-ing from other people’s problems (one loose horse bangs into other horses, etc.). Without a bit I’d be 10x as vigilant and careful.
BITs do not stop horses. TRAINING does. I’ll give you my QH mare as a shining example. One of the reasons we were able to purchase her was that she was a confirmed run-away with the previous owner. The mare had two bleeding bit sores on her lips, and was ridden in a long shanked, high ported curb with a tight “power curb” chain. For those who don’t know what a power curb is, it’s a curb chain with a steel bar in the middle. The owner told me that she got to the point where cantering was too risky. This was an exhibition horse who was as bombproof as it gets, and was used to performing in front of huge crowds, under lights, at night, guns firing, flags, you name it. The mare had performed inside the Excalibur in Vegas twice. But she couldn’t canter without bolting and running.
When we got her home, I put a D-ring, single jointed snaffle on her, and she was perfect at the walk and trot, but I could tell I would be in huge trouble if I asked her to canter.
I switched her to a low port Kimberwicke with the rein on the bottom slot and I did a billion transitions on a 20 meter circle - walk/halt, trot/halt, trot/walk, etc. If she got stiff or hollow, I’d work on flexion exercises, and we’d try again. It was a VERY LONG summer of just retraining the horse. Graduated her to a KK Ultra double jointed snaffle. Then to a LIttle S hackamore.
To shorten the story, the mare is now ridden at a gallop in a wide open field, in a rope halter with ZERO problems. She has various bitless bridles and hackamores that she goes in. She’s a certified mounted patrol/rescue horse, and one of the tests on work days is to gallop in a field with other horses and stop the horse with minimal effort while the others keep galloping. She’s always done it in a rope halter, or a Little S hack.
I still keep in touch with the previous owner, and I think she’s kicking herself that she let the horse go. She can’t believe she’s safe without a bit.
A panicked, or untrained horse can run right through just about any bit you want to put in their mouth. I think the training is far more crucial than the hardware at the front end of the horse.
I’ve taken my Arab mare to a couple of driving shows that our local club puts on, just to acclimate her to the carts, since we ocassionally meet them on trail. They are very acceptant to me just riding her around the grounds, and standing quiet while the carts whiz by her. I’ve seen some of the horses driving bitless and they were perfectly well behaved and light in the bridle. It’s all about training. Driving bitless might not be main stream, but I have seen probably 2 or 3 bitless horses at both driving shows I attended.
I definitely agree with goodhorse though that the seat and leg aids are void with a driven horse, and driving bitless might not be the smartest choice for a lot of horses. But really, if a horse is going to run through the rein aids, he can do it with a bit, or no bit. Remember that horrible driving wreck someone posted, where 10 or so carts were involved? Horses running amok every which way, no control whatsoever, and all of them were bitted.
Am I losing my mind, or have a couple of threads been merged here? Look at the date of the OP…
Auventera, no one will argue that TRAINING is what stops horses. Nor will anyone disagree that yes, horses can be driven bitless.
But you have to agree that the unexpected sometimes happens and having an extra bit of “brake” on a driving horse is a safety issue. The tools a rider has at his disposal to stop a runaway aren’t practical for driving. You can’t exactly do a one-rein stop with a horse between two shafts that’s running off with you. That is why you see many horses driven in what others might consider a “harsh” bit - one with some leverage.
There is no yes or no answer to whether a horse can be driven bitless. As with all things equine, the only honest answer is “it depends.”
Edited to add: I want to be sure I make myself clear on my opinion here. I don’t think I would ever drive a horse bitless and I certainly wouldn’t advise other to try it. Goodhors makes some excellent points as to why.
[QUOTE=goodhors;4349210]
When thinking bitless, you have to keep in mind that DRIVING a horse is NOT like RIDING a horse…the driven horse has ONLY the straight rein pull from bit to breastcollar or hames terret ring. No available sideways pull to bend head outward with the rein, as Rider does with their arms…
I am sure there are people who drive bitless, do it a lot with their individual animal. Just not a mainstream method at this point, and bitless is not a driving method I would recommend to anyone. Mechanically, bitless does not appear to work well with harness and how we want Driving horses to go along.[/QUOTE]
I have never driven a horse in harness in my life, but even I can see there’s no logical way to find fault with your statements. I love a sidepull or Little S hack on a riding horse either as a break from a bit, or full time headgear. But I can’t make any sense out of bitless in a harness- as you simply stated above, it’s ALL you have, and there’s NO opening rein/plow rein option- that rein runs from bit to breastcollar or hames terret ring.
I’ve never driven bitless (and probably never would) but I well remember one time when I was driving a perfectly well mannered, to-the-nines-trained horse hitched to a sleigh. Oh, it was great fun but somehow the horse got his tongue over the bit and the REAL fun began. I had no control over the horse at all and as he got faster and faster, the sleigh started sliding side to side, and I knew I was in for a heck of a wreck, so I yelled out “WHOA, you freakin’ BUGGER!!”. Ah, he was such a well trained horse, he slid to a stop and stood like a statue.
So, I guess you could say I did a little “bitless” driving to some degree 
Crown Jewel Resort
The Crown Jewel Resort in Nova Scotia does bitless riding and driving as part of their horse vacation packages. They use Fjords.
Personally, I would never drive any of my Fjords without a bit, but the Crown Jewel seems to do it regularly and without issue.
What an interesting little story from A2 of her trail riding horse that she bought with a bleeding damaged mouth because it got strong in canter and was ridden by someone who hadn’t a clue and was untrained .
But does this have anything to do with driving bitless? Indeed does it even have anything to do with driving?
The fact that A2 went to a couple of unregulated local shows and sat on her riding horse and saw a couple of horses driven bitless at those unsanctioned shows doesn’t mean that driving bitless is a sensible or sane thing to do at all.
For sure it doesn’t mean she’s got a clue about driving or driving bits or driving bitless.
A2 might be better sticking to not doing endurance and giving advice there rather than not doing driving and advising here and I’m not understanding why anyone on a driving thread would even want to know about how she trained her trail horse.
This thread isn’t about trail horses.
It’s not about evading and run away in cater.
It’s not even about bolting.
If you want to know about that then there’s a recent thread here which pretty much has that covered.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=220603&page=2
This thread though is about driving a horse bitless.
Those who actually have experience driving absolutely know that when all you have is your voice and hands to manage a horse that you’re following no matter where it goes that it’s pretty darned sensible to have something that effects the curb and poll. Let alone the minor fact that unless you’re using the right bit, you’re never going to get the subtle adjustment required with the minor inclination of your hand nor produce what I would consider to be a properly finished driving horse capable.
Experienced, sensible and safe drivers tend to want something that’s capable of more than than just pulling a carriage behind it.
OH Thomas, just chill out. You don’t need to be such an ass all the time. Just lighten up.
I didn’t say that driving bitless is smart. All I said is that TRAINING stops horses, and if you think a bit is going to stop a run away, you are dead wrong.
The only point to my post was that if people think they’re safe just because they have a bit in the beast’s mouth, then that’s scary thinking. If a horse truly panics and runs away, you probably aren’t going to stop him, bit or no bit.
And for the record, some hackamores are strong enough to break the animals’ bones, so you certainly CAN have a tremendous amount of control and brakes in certain hackamores. Ain’t gonna happen in an english jumping hack, or a a Little S, but there are some really nasty leverage nosebands out there that will either stop the horse, or break its nose in the process. No, I don’t recommend that EITHER, but I’m saying that bits don’t stop horses. There are WAAAY too many confirmed runaways to prove that.
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;4352652]
OH Thomas, just chill out. You don’t need to be such an ass all the time. Just lighten up…[/QUOTE]
You’re very fond of giving advice on subject matters of which you have limited experience. Seems this also now extends to frequently guessing what sort of mood folks might be in and to advising them to chill out and stop being an ass.
I’m thinking it’s time you actually tried something you give advice about. Perhaps you could start with not being an ass !
Note: When someone suggests you’re wrong it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re wrong!
I didn’t say that driving bitless is smart. All I said is that TRAINING stops horses, and if you think a bit is going to stop a run away, you are dead wrong.
The only point to my post was that if people think they’re safe just because they have a bit in the beast’s mouth, then that’s scary thinking. If a horse truly panics and runs away, you probably aren’t going to stop him, bit or no bit.
And for the record, some hackamores are strong enough to break the animals’ bones, so you certainly CAN have a tremendous amount of control and brakes in certain hackamores. Ain’t gonna happen in an english jumping hack, or a a Little S, but there are some really nasty leverage nosebands out there that will either stop the horse, or break its nose in the process. No, I don’t recommend that EITHER, but I’m saying that bits don’t stop horses. There are WAAAY too many confirmed runaways to prove that
I’m very aware that you posted a diatribe on your untrained and uncontrollable trail horse. I’m very aware that it had nothing to do with driving and nothing at all to do with anything that anyone was suggesting anywhere on this thread.
This posting was nothing to do with trail horses. Nothing to do with stopping horses with a bit. Indeed not even to do with stopping them at all. Nothing to do with nasty leverage nose bands. Nothing to do with breaking horse’s noses. Nothing to do with runaways.
For the record I’m totally chilled but it doesn’t stop me recognising that you were WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY off topic and not posting anything that had anything useful to say about considering how best to try to manage the situation of trying to bit a driving horse with poor dentition or whether to even consider driving without a bit.
OH Thomas, just chill out. You don’t need to be such an ass all the time. Just lighten up.
First thing that popped into my head was that movie with Jack Nicolson…“You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!”
This would be sort of like me giving dangerous advice on a Formula 1 racing forum, because I’d seen a race once.
Before I even began driving, I often came here for advice from people with lots and lots of experience driving. Now, this poster comes here for help and someone with little to NO experience starts spouting off, sounding like she actually knows what she’s talking about in regards to driving and driving horses.
This is very dangerous, as someone brand new might actually believe that you know what you are talking about and take the advice, perhaps causing injury or worse.
Driving is a dangerous sport. Much more so, IMO, than most other equestrian endeavous. You can screw up on a riding horse and you have multiple aids to go to to fix it, or you can bail if it comes to that. If you screw up while driving, it is much more dangerous, you have less control and can lead to much more catastrophic outcomes.
A2…perhaps you would be happier and more well-received if you went back to wherever it is your particular skill set is useful.
I’m sure if you have any questions about driving you would be sure to get useful and serious advice here from the many (world renowned) experts who frequent this board.
To the OP…perhaps this pony just isn’t suitable? I’m not there so I can’t say, but even with my limited experience (I’ve only driven two different horses), I’d say that a bit is required equipment for 99% of driving horses. The first time you feel them take that STEP that tells you things could go wrong any second now, you’ll be glad you have the proper equipment to diffuse the situation.
NJR
Last time I checked, anyone was free to post anywhere on the board they so choose. :lol:
I did not tell anyone to go out and drive their horse bitless. All I said, is that BITS DON’T STOP HORSES. If you think they do, then its just a matter of time before you get in a wreck. TRAINING stops horses, whether they’re bitted or not.
A specific few have told the OP to not even CONSIDER driving said pony bitless because it’s an accident waiting to happen. So yes Thomas, this does have something to do with driving bitless, and leverage nose bands and stopping runaways.
And I certainly was not the only one on this thread to make that point.
