I know, I know, I would normally NEVER EVER think about driving bitless, but… my husband is in the process of acquiring a mini (almost a rescue situation) and he is dead set on teaching this pony to drive. He is considering trying bitless as the pony has a jaw deformity in that her lower jaw extends beyond her upper so much that her lower teeth are visible. :eek: I am not sure that this pony can be bitted due to the deformity. Other than the mouth situation, her conformation is pretty good and she obviously can eat OK. I am an experienced recreational driver and am willing to give this a shot. Has anyone else tried anything like this?
If the mini has a severe enough deformity to prevent a bit from being used, AND if she is very biddable and gentle and sensible and obedient, I might suggest you try something along the lines of a hackamore. I don’t see any reason why this won’t work nearly as well … if not better…than a bit.
I ride bitless all the time (well over 1,400 race miles and 3x that in training) for Endurance; but never ever with driving. Nor would I ever. I’ve read enough of attempts in the prior-prior century (1880’s-90’s) of experienced drivers/trainers who tried driving bitless (sometime bridle-less!!)… and it always ended in some sort of failure.
But… yesterday isn’t today, and we don’t use our animals for day to day work and commuting. So… if the mare is happily agreeable and happily biddable, I think your husband has a good chance of succeeding. 
We all need to get on the same page with our descriptions of tack. It is way too easy to be confused with using a local name on items that may be totally different from someone else’s local item.
When I hear Hackamore, I see a Bosal with the Mecate rein, bosal heel tied up with rope around the throat, horsehair reins of the California riders.
http://brokenhearttrading.com/online_gallery/hackamore/gallery_hackamore.html
I am pretty sure that is NOT what GTD means in her recommendation. This traditional setup REQUIRES a rider and legs, to be able to “double” the horse with reins and hands out to the sides. Needs very specialized equipment, not the stuff that “just looks like” the traditional Hackamore. The common bosal often twists on horse head with just pulling, poor fit with cable interior instead of rawhide core. Very easy to sore up an animal face with braided rawhide, if used regularly. Really hard to keep heads up if they dive to the ground, no real control until you get him bent again, break the straight line of spine to head. You need actual training in historical methods, to do bosal training correctly. And all this is preparation for advancing to Spade bits and riding work, not for Driving.
The mechanical hackamore setups also don’t do well with no rider’s legs on horse. Mechanical hackamores have curb chains, shanks like a bit, with various nose pieces. Reins pulled, cause chin pressure and nose pressure, allowing rider to halt horse.
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2222852830089848068VDhLYt
Often this horse is also legged over by rider, neck reins for added sideways control. Not real possible when talking mini equine.
Haven’t used a sidepull, but have watched others using them on ridden animals. This is a padded nose band ending in rein rings beside the mouth, with a chinstrap coming around to work with noseband.
http://www.bigdweb.com/detail.aspx?id=18866#
Again, rider extends arm sideways, to begin circling the animal. Almost never pulling reins straight back for control. Animals can get more trained and subtle with them, but they always have rider and his legs as secondary aids for directional cues. I really was not impressed with sidepulls, the design and skills horses showed when using them. Appeared about as effective as using a halter and leadrope reins. I am sure some folks find them really great, just not myself.
So maybe folks could give a brief description of the tack item, along with the name they know it by, if they have ideas for training help. Help us all prevent confusion in discussion.
One of my mares has a jaw like that. We drive her fine!! She’s a little behind the bit, but I don’t know if that has anything to do with the jaw though.
Excellent post, Goodhors…
To add to your list, there’s also a jumping hackamore, which I often use on HRH Avery for riding. I would NOT care to use it for driving. But then again, the OP is talking about a mini, and not 17.2h of “forward”!
I am hoping she will be able to wear a bit In any case I was thinking along the lines of a Dr Cook type of headstall were I will be able to turn her head in the direction I want to travel… Not sure if they make them in mini size, though… Miss mini seems to be very quiet and laid back. she will be arriving on Sat. after the OK on her coggins.
Have you asked any Mini lists, about what they use in problem mouths? Sad to say that quite a few minis have dental problems, facial abnormalities. So your jaw problem is not uncommon in mini groups, they have experience dealing with it.
Our equine dentist gave up his horse practice, went to doing minis only, because they pay so well. And there are so many minis needing dental help! He told us of many, many problems that happen with small heads, yet animals have full size and number of teeth that horses do. Sounded like a real breeding problem, with only the better ones getting a lot of attention, dentally. He removes quite a few teeth, to allow jaws to align, teeth to be straight for chewing. Teeth growing at bad angles come out. Cramped jawbone length makes for some very weird deformations as adult teeth start arriving.
Have you got a good dentist available for an evaluation? With a check over, they can do some work to make her more comfortable, get teeth aligned as much as possible. She may need nothing done.
Does the mini have bars to lay a bit across? Even with her lower jaw being more forward, she may be able to comfortably wear a bit that is the correct size. Mini sized bits are available in several styles. I guess having bar space will be the deciding factor.
You do want to have good control, because even a small equine has quite a lot of power. Whatever you drive her with, she needs to cooperate ALL the time. You can’t just muscle them, though small, if a problem arises. As others have learned and retold with surprise! Little and determined can win, over a driver who disagrees with mini.
Full sized horses have longer lower jaw, monkey mouth, and are useable with bits. Nobody threw away a horse in olden times, unless he couldn’t eat to survive. Have to evaluate each individual realistically.
Maybe you will be able to give more mouth details after she arrives.
[QUOTE=goodhors;3248328]
He told us of many, many problems that happen with small heads, yet animals have full size and number of teeth that horses do. [/QUOTE]
Interesting. We bred Chihuahuas and Rottweilers for years and found that the little dogs tended to have LOTS of dental problems - most needed to have some teeth removed - while the larger dogs never had a problem. Never thought about it with minis but since my daughter is hoping to buy one it will be something we’ll definitely check. Thanks! 
As far as a bit, would not a plain simple snaffle work?
We use Tom Johnson/Colleen Porter, out of Grass Lake for teeth. Hopefully they will be in our area soon. I don’t want to have to haul up there. They used to do our mini donk, but he didn’t have any dental issues.
A mullen mouth, waterford or double jointed bit might work better than a single joined bit too.
Here’s a video of my 11.3hh Newfoundland Pony mare with the same jaw issue. As the video says, it was her first time in a cart, but she’s been driving pairs for about 5 months.
If anyone’s wondering, the harness is from “Ron’s Horse Harness” and the cart is a Pacific Carriage Training cart.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ8_3nTp7sE
She does open and close her mouth a lot. I was trying a new bit, something thicker, she wasn’t soo happy with it.
I have a half arab mare, with a severe underbite, top teeth do not meet the bottom teeth, they meet behind the bottom teeth. How she eats I’m not sure but she does. I haven’t driven her yet but I have ground driven her, I bought a french link snaffle for her and that seems to be working well.
You might have to have the type of bridle your thinking about custom made. But try all the options. Good luck
Karen
[QUOTE=Ashemont;3248372]
Interesting. We bred Chihuahuas and Rottweilers for years and found that the little dogs tended to have LOTS of dental problems - most needed to have some teeth removed - while the larger dogs never had a problem. Never thought about it with minis but since my daughter is hoping to buy one it will be something we’ll definitely check. Thanks!
As far as a bit, would not a plain simple snaffle work?[/QUOTE] Nothing to do at all with the size of the animal.
Being overshot or undershot is an inherited deformity. So if the gene pool is relatively limited, then its going to seen in disproportionate number.
Goodhors posting is spot on.
Rather than looking at the jaw position you need to ensure that there’s a normal gap between the teeth for an appropriate bit to be placed in. If you’re not sure ask your equine vet or equine dentist. Or else have you a photo of the pony’s mouth and dentition?
[QUOTE=nfld_pony;3249027]
Here’s a video of my 11.3hh Newfoundland Pony mare with the same jaw issue. As the video says, it was her first time in a cart, but she’s been driving pairs for about 5 months.
If anyone’s wondering, the harness is from “Ron’s Horse Harness” and the cart is a Pacific Carriage Training cart.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ8_3nTp7sE
She does open and close her mouth a lot. I was trying a new bit, something thicker, she wasn’t soo happy with it.[/QUOTE]
Newfie–is that you? I wondered how long it would take you to wander over to this site! And I thought nfl meant North Florida!!!
I have owned and bred miniatures since '84, trained and driven them since 1985, so feel I can address this question w/ reasonable experience.
It is very true that miniatures have tooth issues; mainly because the teeth do not ‘shrink’ as quickly as selective breeding (for small size) can ‘shrink’ the ‘rest’ of the horse. I did NOT breed horses with severe tooth issues, such as monkey mouth or parrot mouth–those ARE genetic problems, and it is stupid to ‘send them on’. I also DID NOT breed horses with stifle issues, or late-descending testicles…other fairly common problems in miniatures, largely because so many who have, AND breed, them, are NOT horsemen and do NOT know about nor understand that these ARE serious problems that should NOT be reproduced! Believe me, there are PLENTY of ‘pitfalls’ out there in searching out GOOD breeding stock, largely because of this!
It is DOUBLY important with miniatures to pay careful and close attention to proper tooth care and maintenance; even those with decent bite alignment seem to develop hooks and waves more quickly and/or more often than their larger cousins, especially as they shed caps and grow in their adult teeth, that can lead to greater problems if not addressed in timely manner.Most miniatures are ‘later’ to both begin, and complete, this process, in my experience and observation, too.
As long as your mini has an adequate ‘bars’ area,even with a monkey or a parrot mouth, it should be no more difficult to ‘bit’, and later, drive, her than it would any other. I suggest being sure that any ‘wolf’ teeth are removed, and a good equine dentist can do a ‘bit seat’ if needed. Myler makes an ‘in effect’ Mullen mouth bit that most of my horses accept and like, though it is generally NOT a ‘first use’ bit. I have had good results starting minis with a good no-pinch eggbutt snaffle of proper width–it’s what I let them learn to hold and carry. When I begin to use a bit to actually longline/ground drive, I use the eggbutt or a Myler ‘comfort snaffle’, a very mild, small diameter mouth that ‘behaves’ somewhat like a french link, not like a ‘nutcracker’. I also utilize a french link, and have a MODERATELY ‘thick’ diameter(for a mini!) mullen mouth that several of my horses like and work well in. I would ‘generally’ agree that any ‘mini’ mouthpiece not be TOO large in diameter or proportions, and that if jointed, a ‘double’ joint like the comfort snaffle or a french link, often works better than one w/ a ‘nutcracker’ action(the ‘basic’, nutcracker’ half cheek, single-jointed bits that ‘come with’ many miniature harnesses are a prime example of sorry bits, IMO–I have tossed plenty of them!)
Plenty of good comments and observations here already! Above all, every horse, large or small, is a individual! If you are not going into a show ring, and the horse is of the proper temperment, some sort of ‘bitless’ might work, though I agree most completely w/ goodhors on that subject; don’t see the ‘usual’ no-bit equipment being quite suitable to a driven horse, big or little! I would suggest obtaining a mild-in-action,well-made, no pinch, proper width miniature bit, and training the horse to properly accept and respond to it. Follow all accepted training procedures and take all required time to ‘do it right’, and no reason you won’t end up with a pleasant, safe, and happy little recreational driving horse!!
Margo C-T, in New Mexico
Dr. Cook’s makes a bitless driving bridle. I know people driving horses and ponies bitless. I have no real issue with it as I’m a firm believer bits don’t necessarily stop horses.
I have a mini X Welsh cross in for training right now. We’re having bitting issues. She is long lining and ground driving FLAWLESSLY off her halter. I haven’t hooked her, I’m waiting for her to be more accepting of the bit. I hope it happens. If not I may have to explore other options.
And yes… her teeth were done by her MOTHER who is a veterinarian who speciailized in dentistry so it’s not a tooth issue LOL (before anyone asks)
Miss Mini had her teeth done last Friday. Ack!!! What a mess. The vet believes that she is five and she surely has never had any dental care. He ended up pulling one tooth, as she still has some baby teeth that have not yet shed. This is causing at least one impaction. The good news is he thinks he can make her mouth much better over time and she will be able to wear a bit.
[QUOTE=Cartfall;3250851]
Newfie–is that you? I wondered how long it would take you to wander over to this site! And I thought nfl meant North Florida!!![/QUOTE]
Wow! its “emnhorserider” (from the other site)
How cool is this!
I know there are a lot of contraptions that are bitless, some more effective than others, and some more harsh than others.
When I tell you I ride my TWH mare bitless, I am using a Dr. Cook’s Bitless Bridle. It is not a sidepull. It actually PUSHES the head over in the proper direction rather than pulling it. Rose and I loff this Cook’s bridle. I don’t need a bit to set up my gaited horse properly.
BUT, I have no opinion about using a Cook’s for driving except to be very very sure your horse is well educated, prepared, and obedient before taking it out of the ring.
It is unlikely that I will ever try using the Cook’s for driving because my driving horse doesn’t love the bitless unless her teeth need to be floated. Cookie rather enjoys her bits.
I wish you the best in whatever you end up choosing for your mini!
Wendy
NC
Well bitless it must be for us. The equine dental vet was out again several weeks ago and tried to fit the bit in her mouth while she was sedated. We chose a 4" mini mullen mouth with a roller in the middle so we could influence one side of her mouth at a time. Unfortunately, her dental gap is not appropriately sized to accommodate a bit. When it is hung correctly in the mouth it hits the rear teeth in the lower jaw and when we try to lower it , it hits the front teeth in the upper. Now we are on the search for some bitless device that can be used.
