Bits that use minimal tongue pressure? Or, horse started sticking out his tongue.

[Levitate]

My horse is 17 yrs old, a former jumper/eventer retired as a dressage horse as of 3 years ago. He has a low palate/thick tongue and has always been very light in the mouth, to the point of tossing off fussy-handed riders (he’s a saint if he likes the way you ride). Fortunately he’s compact & uphill and has his own balance, so he doesn’t need a strong contact, and he can be ridden in just a halter using only leg & seat. For training purposes, though, I of course need a bit.

He recently developed the habit of sticking his tongue out when he has a bit in his mouth. He does it as soon as he is bridled. Dental & soundness issues are being addressed, although I recently moved & I’ve yet to find a dentist who does not make things worse by overdoing it with power tools.

KK Ultra B-ring: switched him to this a few years ago when we began dressage, and he loved it. tongue sticks out just barely, only visible up close. He can get btv with barely any contact so the connection is rather ephemeral sometimes.

Sprenger Dynamic RS loose ring: This bit gave me the ability to use more precise aids because he did not go behind the vertical every time I touched the bit, but his tongue sticks halfway out of his mouth sometimes! I’ve walked up to him after lungeing and opened his mouth to look at what he’s doing, and a lot of tongue is sandwiched in between his upper & lower teeth. If that’s a relief from the bit, the bit has to be pretty uncomfortable. I was told it was supposed to be a 1/4" smaller than his normal size but I didn’t know that until after I bought it, so maybe it’s too big?

I’ve used no noseband, a figure eight, and a standard noseband (nosebands loose enough he can eat a sugar cube) and it is the worst without a noseband, which used to be his favorite.

I have a feeling that he does not like any tongue pressure, but I don’t know why this is just happening now and never before. I want to try a bit with minimal tongue pressure and see if there’s any improvement. He likes a thin bit, 14 or 16mm, never tried a single jointed, always a lozenge. He hates hollow mouths (or anything 18mm+), happy mouths, and mullen mouths (too thick), although I haven’t tried one with a port. I don’t show so it doesn’t have to be legal. Maybe a JP french link baucher?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[keysfins]

Have you tried/borrowed any Myler bits? Some horses like a bit that thin, and several are dressage legal. My young horse started in a KK Ultra, then tried a RS Dynamic, and also tried a Novocontact. All three piece bits with a middle link. The Myler was what she seemed to go best in-- no leaning on the bit, yanking downward or other mouth issues.

[Inclinedtowhisper]

Try using an eggbutt snaffle with a thin mouth. And change your noseband to a well fitted, padded flash noseband.

If this continues to be an issue even after using gentler smaller mouthed bit and flash noseband, try schooling in a Dr. Cook bitless bridle for a while and see where it gets it. They are currently aloud to use Dr. cook bitless bridles in schooling shows, and are working on making them legal in rated shows as well

[tollertwins]

try a thin mullen w/ a good curve to it.

http://www.hastilowusa.com/bits/abbey-bits/hilary-vernon-collection/full-cheek-mullen-mouth.html

you can also find mullens w less curve that are still on the thin side. smith worthington has one and i think centaur or one of those types may as well.

my horse doesn’t like anything double jointed and has an itty bitty mouth - 12mm is about max thickness he can handle…he is in a mullen wrapped in sealtex.

[Levitate]

Re Dr Cooks - we hated it. He flipped his head constantly in annoyance (reins on the buckle just going down the trail), and I find that they require a heavier touch than I like. Myler is an option I could try but I don’t see how a thick padded flash is going to help this horse, or any for that matter.
As for a thin eggbutt or Mullen mouth, could you explain what makes these use less tongue pressure than, say, a thin loose ring? What action do they use instead (bars, corners of the mouth, etc)? I understand it might work for one horse anecdotally but I’d like to learn more about how each type of snaffle works.

[Levitate]

My intuition tells me no on the Mullen mouth, unless it was ported. That actually looks like a lot of tongue pressure.

[LarkspurCO]

I would suggest watching the Myler video series. I found it very informative and helpful in understanding bit pressure and how this is influenced by the mouthpiece and cheek piece.

Here’s part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqGXCWVSS0Y

A bit like full-cheek mullen linked above – used with bit keepers – has a significant arch and would hold the mouthpiece above the tongue. Myler also makes a mullen mouth that you can get in a full cheek. The Abbey mouthpiece with loose rings would just fall over onto the tongue (I know because I tried that one in a loose ring from Hastilow and instantly returned it).

This video series led me to a phone conversation with Dale Myler (call him up!) and I bought the bit he suggested, which worked very well for awhile. When I needed finer control I put the horse back back into the Dynamic RS and he was doing great in it, until he was sidelined with an injury…

[Levitate]

LarkspurCO, thanks for that. I do like the fine tuned aids I can apply with the Dynamic RS and am less inclined to go for a bit that doesn’t allow for that. I tried a “comfort mouth” snaffle from Sprenger on a horse who needed to learn that bits were not scary (he was a tooth grinder & afraid of the hand), and it worked but that very light horse quickly became heavy in it. I somehow have this idea that a mullen mouth does not give a clear enough signal and will make a horse heavy, but I have not really given them many tries and can recall a very fine horse I worked with as a groom who went in a mullen bradoon.

As for the video, I will definitely give that a watch! I’m always skeptical of “educational” videos from a company, since their purpose is usually to sell something, but it can’t hurt and I’ll probably learn something.

A full cheek is another bit to try. One question, though - if his tongue issue arose suddenly, and you were able to switch back to a Dynamic RS, where did my horse’s tongue pain come from and where did your horse’s tongue pain go?

[LarkspurCO]

My horse was four and just getting going under saddle and didn’t have the contact properly established. We were trying different bits to see what worked. He was experimenting with where to put his tongue and the Myler lessened that distraction, I guess. Once he was more steady in the bridle then the dynamic RS didn’t bother him.

Your horse’s mouth may be changing as he ages. Who knows why…they do that for fun.

[tollertwins]

Mullens have pretty even tongue and bar pressure…the very curved ones have less tongue pressure.

They do NOT allow for the fine aids that something like the Dynamic RS will, but also don’t put pressure right in the center of the tongue like the double jointed bits do.

[IndyEquestrian]

Have you looked at the thinner bradoon type bits? I find that horses with thick tongues like a thin bit. I have had great success with the Neue Schule Comfy Contact bit, it is only 10mm and makes my fussy horse happy. It is not a bradoon. I have also had lots of horses love the Neue Schule Verbindend in any ring combination. I personally prefer the loose ring. These bits aren’t cheap however. . . I have a friend who had an older hunter who retired to the dressage ring. He was a tongue loller, and after trying many bits ended up in a Neue Schule bradoon, I believe it was the Tranz Angled Lozenge.

We all love the Neue Schule’s because we can get the large sizes we need, if you don’t need a 5.75 or 6 then you can probably find something similar to these from a different brand as well!

[PoohLP]

I will echo previous posters and suggest you try the myler bits. They are specifically designed to provide less tongue pressure, and several of them are dressage legal - just not the ones with hooks or leverage. This link has the dressage legal mylers broken out - http://www.toklat.com/Products/Brand/Myler/125/Dressage_Legal_Bits. The only caveat I would give is to make sure you get one without the hooks, as hooks are not dressage legal and even though you could just leave the hooks off, I feel like the holes mess up the way the rings sit on the bridle.

The different levels provide varying pressure on the tongue/bars.
Level 1 is less on the tongue than a traditional bit but still some tongue pressure.
Level 2 is less on tongue/more on bars.
Level 3 is almost all bars/no tongue.

I’d start with the MB-2 comfort snaffle. It provides some tongue relief, but without the big port you get in some of the other mylers and because it is jointed on both sides of the roller, you can still apply nice, precise and independent aids. You can get it in a variety of rings.

When I bought mine, I used this place - http://www.marystack.com/

They have a myler rental program, which is very nice because you can try a few different bits and decide which you like best and they are very nice about extending the rental period if weather or other events prevent you from getting a few good rides in while you have the bits rented. The people there are also very helpful and can order the specific bit you want if they don’t have what you want in stock.

[Ambitious_Kate]

My horse has the same issues yours does, including the low palate. When he gets his tongue over the bit, I have always believed it was in an attempt to keep the bit away from the roof of his mouth, not because he didn’t like tongue pressure.

I am a beliver that a correctly fitted bit does not rest on the tongue and is held stable and up off the bars. For this reason I like to use a baucher. Supposedly that B bit is a similar bit to the baucher, but it isn’t quite, and you may want to try a baucher

Also because of the low palate, I found a double jointed or french link snaffle was much much better for him. A regular snaffle poked up into his palate.

Also, becuase it was such a habit, I had him in a flash for several years. Today he doesn’t evade by putting tongue over the bit, but seeks contact.

Good luck.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;8308455]
My horse has the same issues yours does, including the low palate. When he gets his tongue over the bit, I have always believed it was in an attempt to keep the bit away from the roof of his mouth, not because he didn’t like tongue pressure.

I am a beliver that a correctly fitted bit does not rest on the tongue and is held stable and up off the bars. For this reason I like to use a baucher. Supposedly that B bit is a similar bit to the baucher, but it isn’t quite, and you may want to try a baucher

Also because of the low palate, I found a double jointed or french link snaffle was much much better for him. A regular snaffle poked up into his palate.

Also, becuase it was such a habit, I had him in a flash for several years. Today he doesn’t evade by putting tongue over the bit, but seeks contact.

Good luck.[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm, interesting thoughts about putting the tongue over the bit. My pony is currently ground driving and double-lunging and I’ve noticed that she’s starting to put her tongue over the bit. I was using a KK Ultra bridoon (what my TB with a small mouth, low palate liked best) so when I was having a lesson we switched it out to a single-jointed rubber snaffle, which she hated right away (even at a stand still she’d be opening her mouth). Then I got out my HS Duo bit and tried that and her mouth was quiet right away at a stand still and nice and quiet at the walk, too. Didn’t do too much more than that because I wanted to end on something she liked, but I’m eager to go out and school her to see how she likes it.

I do have a couple Myler level 1 bits I could also try if the Duo doesn’t work out.

Anyway, sorry to derail a little bit!

Mr. PoPo’s horse used to stick his tongue out. In the end we just let him do it because it was a habit he had before we got him. We used a curved single-jointed snaffle and he went as well in that as anything else we tried. Sometimes we’d trail ride him in a hackamore noseband and that was fine, too. He had all sorts of other problems and I always wondered if they were related (roarer, cribber, old injury, ultimately he was neurologic) or if it was just a thing he did because. We tried the flash noseband but it didn’t make a bit of difference.

Good luck and let us know if you find something that works!

ETA: With my mustang I tried a regular KK, the Duo, regular jointed snaffle, shaped jointed snaffle, and I always come back to the Myler comfort loose ring snaffle - it is his favorite bit.

[LadyNeon01]

I just had a light-bulb moment, thanks to Larkspur! I’m currently using a Dewsbury baucher (http://www.dressageextensions.com/dewsbury-link-baucher/p/10401/). But I wonder if my horse is still feeling excessive tongue pressure because he still evades contact. He’s able to hold it for a few strides or so before his head goes up. Watching the Myler videos are making me take a look at his mouth and bit tonight.

I’ve been through 3 or 4 different bits with him before we settled on the baucher. He likes a narrow mouthpiece with lots of stability. Maybe I need to take that one step further and allow some tongue relief.

[tollertwins]

i wish i could use the mylers…but that center barrel is too wide for mine’s mouth. the outside of it sits on the edges of his tongue…

this one has narrow jaws, a NOT fat tongue, and a ‘regular’ palatte.

i tried a ported bombers bit on him and he almost dumped me on my head…

[LarkspurCO]

Myler does make bits with a narrow barrel. Have you seen them?

For example:

http://www.horsesaddleshop.com/toklat-myler-snaffle-bit-89-28015.html#.VfEHGRFVhBc

I have an older Myler Dee with a narrow barrel that never worked for any of my horses (planning to try to sell it if I ever get around to listing it). I’m not sure if they still make this one – it has a very large Dee ring and closes down much more than the ones with the wider barrel.

http://s73.photobucket.com/user/hfournier/media/Misc/IMAG2146.jpg.html
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Misc/IMAG2148.jpg

[Levitate]

Thanks for all the input. Seems like some others have gotten something out of the thread, too. In my search for information I found this article from Manolo Mendez that might be of interest:

https://www.facebook.com/ManoloMendezDressage/photos/a.187028098103237.43559.110300399109341/314726412000071/