Jackie- You seem to have no understanding of how cavalry remounts were ridden and trained-they were not trained. They were the motorcycle of the day. Some of the riders were horsemen, the rest, survivors.
Another analogy please.
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I find a double bridle to be a precision tool and it can be used with the very lightest of contact. Using one, in times past, indicated a finished rider with good hands which is why all those old hunting prints show doubles.
A double is legal in British Eventing in all phases except dressage lower than 4*.
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BBM
How do you know we are all strapping our horses mouths shut? Pulling their faces off in a snaffle?
Wow 6 year olds using a double correctly, that’s unbelievable. While possible, it sure as hell isn’t common or suggested as a way to start a rider, especially a 6 year old child with little body control.
Finally…you say you ride your horses face instead of using your body and other aids, but then lecture us about how we all need to embrace the double bridle and are uneducated.
Truly one of the most bizarre posts I have ever read on this forum.
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Not meaning to hijack but I have a related question. My horse has a habit of dropping his head and neck down on landing and leaning on the bit. Especially when dropping down off a bank making it very hard to stay with him when the horse suddenly disappears from in front of you. I had an upper level rider break a pair of brand new reins when he jumped him down a bank trying to get his head up. Would a waterford be helpful for him as there’s nothing for him to lean against? Thanks for any suggestions.
This really depends on the horse and why they do this. I know some do this when they have front hoof pain, especially barefoot, they will land heavier on the landing side and drop their neck down to stabilize themselves.
Other times horses can land really on the forehand and heavy when they are tired and out of steam.
The waterford is more useful for things like horses who “grab the bit and run”, since it is so flexible they can’t readily brace against it they way they can other bits.
I’d want to poke around and see why he is dropping his head to such extremes (assuming based on you saying they broke reins, which is extreme!). What kind of bit is he in now, and how seasoned is he?
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That was my thought too. Breaking reins is extreme. I would explore pain/saddle issue?
Does he do this on a lunge line? That would be my first troubleshooting step.
He’s shod in front and is sound as a dollar. He was fresh and I had just jumped him a little over small stuff before the other rider got on. Granted the reins were probably not manufactured as well as they should have been (SoftTouch), but he did give a pretty sharp upward pull on his face. Luckily I had spares. I think he does it because he’s learned he can use it as an evasion with me as I’m not the strongest rider. He’s 9 and has been xc schooling and jumping up to training level, not with me though.
HIs saddle has been custom fitted to him and gets adjusted regularly as needed. I’ve also x-rayed his back for kissing spine but he’s good there. I’m riding him in a loose ring french link as that seems to be the one he prefers. He’s not the grab the bit and run type, in an arena setting, he’ll come right back to a walk no problem.
He used to bolt quite a bit on the lunge but has stopped that since I now lunge him with a chain over his nose (used judiciously) just to remind him not to. I haven’t jumped him on a lunge but I may give that a try and see what his reaction is. Before I moved to the barn I’m at now, the trainer there set up a free jump chute and sent him through. She said he was barreling around jumping everything and then out of the blue, came to the end of the chute, stopped at the 5’ arena wall and jumped it too. Then cantered to his stall and calmly started eating his hay leaving the trainer and her assistant gaping at what they just saw.
I have jumped him and he’s been absolutely foot perfect and is happiest when the jumps go up. I’ve jumped him to 2’9" myself but he’s got tons of scope for more.
Sorry to go on an on. All good questions.
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Please stop doing this. A chain to lead a horse is not the greatest, but a chain over the nose to lunge is painful for a horse. You can cause damage to the tissue there also. It’s not teaching the horse anything either but to just be stoic. A rope halter, with fuzzies is much kinder and more useful. If you need to lunge in a chain you may want to do some ground work to get this horse a bit more on your side, without the use of force. Sounds like he might walk all over you a bit.
A horse jumping into the barn is extremely dangerous. There’s a lot going on here. Im sorry if this comes across rude, it is not meant to.
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He wasn’t jumping into the barn, the arena is separate building. He cantered across the yard, walked into his stall.
It’s either a chain or he bolts on the lungeline and gets away from me. I don’t yank on him with the chain and he’s gotten much better at not trying it that I’m considering not using it anymore. I’ve tried the rope halter and it didn’t do any good, he still bolted away. He is very smart and if you give him an inch, he takes a mile.
Have you tried lunging with the bit/side reins? When one of my horses was a bit greener on the lunge, he used to take me for a walk (not quite drag me) by bulging out. I ended up putting him in side reins so I could get a bit more control of the outside shoulder to prevent him from bulging and that helped.
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Yes, he is able to do airs above ground with side reins.
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This might offend the COTH collective, but I’ve restarted a lot of (fresh) TBs and babies over the years and played around a lot with my general lunging set up. My go to for the horses that misbehave or bolt on the lunge is they get the full equipment: surcingle, bridle, elastic neck stretcher, and rope halter.
I tack them up with a nosebandless bridle & surcingle. I thread the neck stretcher through their bit, then clip it to the girth between their front legs/chest. Then I put on a rope halter with the lunge line and clip the lunge line to the rope halter’s leadrope feed. I use one half of a long line for my lunge line, actually - I think it is lighter than traditional lunge line.
This set up has served me really well over the years with the horses that bronc on the other end. I like the neck stretcher for greenies better than side-reins because it is lighter, less loud, and more forgiving when they are romping. I’ve had the side-rein jangle set off more than one already nervous horse. I find the neck stretcher has less ‘noise’ for a horse first learning contact, where the sidereins do bounce with every stride on the horse’s mouth. Once they are confirmed lunging, they can go back in side reins or school free, but I don’t usually lunge them past their first two months with me.
I agree a chain is not advisable. At best it deadens the horse to one of the few strong corrections we can give them. At worst, it gets very bad. I have seen a horse break his nasal bone and deglove the front of his face from stepping on his chain lead after breaking free. I want whatever has immediate contact with a horse’s skin to be the first thing to break, and a chain is not the first thing to break when things go south.
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A very good reminder of why, traditionally, beginners rode in double bridles, and, in Britain, still show in them. While in America it’s all but a lost art outside the arena of UL dressage.
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And the various ways the riders had of holding the reins.
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He has never broken free with the chain. He is very respectful of it and lately, like I said, I think I can do away with it altogether.
I would start doing a lot of ground work. Like, a lot. Your life will be much more enjoyable. My mare used to be similar to this. My coach said she “barges through life” lol
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I do not ride my horse’s face, back 50 years ago the one Forward Seat teacher I was lucky enough to have lessons with broke me of that habit, yelling “You are abusing your horse!” over and over again before I learned to NEVER hang on the horse’s face unless there was an utter emergency. That I learned to keep out of the horse’s face is why the first two horses my current riding teacher put me up on (Arabians) had super sensitive mouths (they would run away with other riders because of harsh hands), those horses went just fine with me, obeying my aids of legs FIRST then doing the finesse stuff with the reins, all on a snaffle, no noseband, no martingale, no draw reins, nothing else but bridle, snaffle bit, jumping saddle, reins, light contact and knowledge. I had the experience to ride these horses without causing problems with their mouths.
I introduced one of these two horses with super sensitive mouths to the double bridle, he had absolutely no problems with me using it. How did I know he did not have problems with my double bridle? Let me see, he did not gape in spite of no noseband, he did not go behind vertical, he did not sling his head around, he did not invert with me, his mouth remained soft and responsive, he NEVER ran away with me, and he promptly obeyed all my aids softly. This horse was well known at the stable for not putting up with fools, and to him the best sign of a rider being a fool was that the rider was not able to use the bit softly and accurately. I passed his rather high criteria of being an acceptable rider our first ride in spite of my MS, and we just got on better and better. I was very sad when his breeder finally traced him down and told my riding teacher she’d take him back, since I was his only rider at that moment he went back home to his birthplace where he wanted to go. I LOVED riding that horse. So long as I did not hurt his mouth he took care of me the few times that hell broke loose.
After he left my riding teacher put me up on an older Arabian mare with an even more sensitive mouth. I could also rely on this mare when hell broke loose. I never put that mare in a double bridle because I never got the feeling that she could have fun wearing one, so I just kept her with the snaffle bits, again with no noseband, no martingale and with the gentlest snaffles I had in my bit box. She would not do good contact at first, but she learned to trust my hands and we were good. Super responsive to my hand aids, it got almost to the point of me thinking about an aid getting the response I desired.
Because of my MS I can’t do very much on horseback now, so I concentrate on doing what I can do to the best of my ability. The horses trust my hands, they reach out for contact, they accept contact, they keep contact when I lengthen my reins, they obey my lightest hand aids, they move forward at or near the 4 MPH walk that I desire and they tend to pick their feet up at the trot instead of dragging them through the sand (though with elderly QHs that can sometimes be a challenge.) If my hands are particularly bad one day there is no problem, I train every horse I ride to go on sagging reins and we still have a good ride with me in control even though we are not riding with contact.
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I got a youngish Irish DraftX who came with some built in leaning on the bit. A LOT of transitions within the gaits, lateral work, and focus on self-carriage has cured a lot of it. I did switch from a double jointed bean snaffle to the same mouthpiece in a Wilkie. It gives me a nickel of lift, but not as much as a KK Universal or a 2-ring elevator. Those would have been my next in line choices up the chain.
What ever bit you decide I would recommend that you continue to school and try to address the problem in the snaffle. When you compete (or the rubber is meeting the road) then you use whatever you need to get the job done. Obviously some experimentation beforehand will be needed, but my bet is that you have a schooling issue not a bitting issue. While you might get some relief by using a stronger bit you will rarely ever solve the underlying problem for any sustained length of time–especially if you are schooling in the bit “solving” the problem. (In my experience it is usually the horse’s lack of strength, and/or confidence or a rider error that needs to be addressed.)
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