Black dressage rider goes to the Olympics

[msrobin]

[QUOTE=Eventer13;3408797]
Well, seeing that there is a black trainer that used to WORK in our tack shop (he rode hunters), no I haven’t heard of anyone speaking of “darkies” there. Honestly, never heard it anywhere around horses, but maybe I am deaf.

I think the fact that there are more white people riding is due to class issues more than racism. Riding is expensive, and the general public sees it as something that only the upper class can afford (even if this isnt really the case).

I’m probably not going to go to a show and see lower class white kids riding, why would I see lower class black kids? If there were the same percentage of middle and upper-class black famlies, we would probably see more riding and training.

Sad that equestrian sports have to cut people out because of money, but its true.[/QUOTE]

I couldn’t agree more. It is a matter of money that is it. I am sure there are plenty of black people who would make excellent riders but just like some white people they don’t get the opportunity due to money and there environment.

[Foxtrot_s]

I think any time a person who is part of a minority group succeeds in anything that is a bit unusual, it is newsworthy because that person serves as a role model for their group, and others. Gives realism to a dream for some people. Clumsily worded, I know, in an attempt to be politically correct and sensitive.

[kashmere]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;3408850]
Maybe it’s like that in dressage and racing but in the hunter/jumper world they couldn’t care less what color you are if you have the big bucks you’re good enough for them. The only barrier to this sport is $$. I just think it’s odd that people have to point out the race of a person/rider and the more we do that the more we seperate ourselves from each other…JMHO
?[/QUOTE]

and of which race, in general, are the richest people in north america?

it’s not always about blatant bigotry; most of the time it’s about systemic racism. in a world in which systemic racism is the norm, it’s impossible to be ‘non racist’ - quietly profiting from a racist system is racism - “passive” though it may be. that’s why it’s important to bring stories like this to the forefront; to both celebrate the achievements of a person who has fought against not only instances of very personal, face-to-face bigotry and hatred, but also against the systemic, pervasive racism that is so much a fabric of life in many parts of the world.

i don’t mean to direct this at you in any inflammatory way, i just think your post is a really good launching point for this particular counter-argument.

[Peg]

Kashmere wrote:

it’s not always about blatant bigotry; most of the time it’s about systemic racism. in a world in which systemic racism is the norm, it’s impossible to be ‘non racist’ - quietly profiting from a racist system is racism - “passive” though it may be. that’s why it’s important to bring stories like this to the forefront; to both celebrate the achievements of a person who has fought against not only instances of very personal, face-to-face bigotry and hatred, but also against the systemic, pervasive racism that is so much a fabric of life in many parts of the world.
. I may be better off than many- I feel very fortunate. But I still feel the looks and snubs because I’m not rich. I do make sure that my children and grandchildren have what they need to ride because it is so expensive, but if I feel thelooks and walls, then I know those in other racial and social catagories can certainly feel it. Peg

[twofatponies]

[QUOTE=Peg;3409487]
Kashmere wrote: . I may be better off than many- I feel very fortunate. But I still feel the looks and snubs because I’m not rich. I do make sure that my children and grandchildren have what they need to ride because it is so expensive, but if I feel thelooks and walls, then I know those in other racial and social catagories can certainly feel it. Peg[/QUOTE]

I think this is the part of racism people often overlook - it’s not just having a separate entrance or calling people names - sometimes it’s just the “looks and snubs”. I have Jewish rider friends in New England, who say they sometimes feel uncomfortable and unwelcome at certain barns or horse-related social events.

Just to add, to, having spent some time in Brazil, I think it is even more difficult to overcome race/class in Brazil, because so much of a person’s success and access to things comes only through family connections, and there really isn’t even the pretense of “political correctness” for what it’s worth…

Personally, I can’t wait to see a Lusitano in the Olympics!!

[canticle]

I think the lack of breed diversity in dressage is a much bigger issue. Funny how people always find a way of defending it. :no:

[Ajierene]

Systemic racism is defined as the failure of an organization to provide a service to people because of their color.

While there is racism in the world, dressage as a sport is not racist. There may be a barn or people that will snub someone for their looks and there may be racist judges out there, but you will not be denied entry into a dressage show because of the color of your background (if you are, a quick note to the FEI will clear that right up-and this will be a ‘barn thing’, not an organizational thing). The FEI and other organizations do not work to

When you halt at that center line, you are equal to every other person that halts in front of that judge.

Two things separate riders - desire for the discipline and money.

I have discussed with other people the reasons why some groups of people do not ride horses. Peer pressure is one of the reasons. Friends tell friends that only X (rich, white, etc.) people ride and you are not one of ‘them’, you are one of ‘us’!

undersaddle - not sure what you are talking about with black men just recently making it up the ranks of the rodeo, they have been on the rodeo circuit since the 1960’s, and winning as well as drawing crowds… Considering the professional rodeo circuits have only been around since about 1929, the has been represention of more than one ethnic background for at least half of the life of the professional rodeo circuits. The Rodeo Cowboy Association, the precurser to the Professional Rodeo Cowboy Association (PRCA) has only been around since 1945. Records before this time may not be available to determine who participated before this time.

Kashmere - if you are going to say that it is ‘impossible to be a non-racist’, then you must agree that there are black people that are racist against whites and do not allow them to be part of their groups or organizations, as well as hispanics, Asians and any other ethnic group you want to toss in the mix. While you are at it, we can discuss the discrimination that goes on between genders, religions, East and West Europe - different countries within the entirety of Europe, different countries and even tribes in Africa, etc.

Basically, if you have the money to compete, welcome to dressage…

[Ambrey]

@Ajierene;3409583

Systemic racism is defined as the failure of an organization to provide a service to people because of their color.

Depends on whose definition you use. Kashmere is using a definition currently being used by sociological researchers who study racism.

This definition would look something like:

culturally sanctioned beliefs, which, regardless of intentions involved, defend the advantages whites have because of the subordinated position of racial minorities

Under the current sociological definitions of racism, blacks can not be “racist” because racism is the defense of a social structure that systematically denies power and privilege to people due to their race.

So arguing who can and can’t be racist depends a lot on what definition you’re using Looking at race as a sociological phenomenon rather than one of individual interactions is fascinating.

[ridgeback]

I’m sorry I even said anything:(

[Ajierene]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3409618]
Depends on whose definition you use. Kashmere is using a definition currently being used by sociological researchers who study racism.

This definition would look something like:

culturally sanctioned beliefs, which, regardless of intentions involved, defend the advantages whites have because of the subordinated position of racial minorities

Under the current sociological definitions of racism, blacks can not be “racist” because racism is the defense of a social structure that systematically denies power and privilege to people due to their race.

So arguing who can and can’t be racist depends a lot on what definition you’re using Looking at race as a sociological phenomenon rather than one of individual interactions is fascinating.[/QUOTE]

I fail to see where this definition states that blacks cannot be racist or where dressage as a sport is racist. The definition states that the organization would defend the advantages of whites. Where does dressage defend the advantages of whites? It is an advantage of money. An advantage of race would be not allowing blacks to compete or making the rules different (harsher) for blacks opposed to whites. This is the only was dressage, at the organizational level, could show racism against blacks.

By your definition blacks can be racist because they do defend certain social structures, such as the separation of race (yes, there are those that defend the separation of race). They do disallow whites or other minorities into organizations that may give an individual power and privilege, that otherwise would not. There are black business owners that are reluctant or refuse to wait on white customers. This is denial of service based on race, which fits into the sociological definition you describe. If you are going to look at race as a sociological phenomenon, you have to accept that all races have examples of denial of services and acceptance to other races.

[Ambrey]

@Ajierene;3409636

By your definition blacks can be racist because they do defend certain social structures, such as the separation of race (yes, there are those that defend the separation of race). They do disallow whites or other minorities into organizations that may give an individual power and privilege, that otherwise would not. There are black business owners that are reluctant or refuse to wait on white customers. This is denial of service based on race, which fits into the sociological definition you describe. If you are going to look at race as a sociological phenomenon, you have to accept that all races have examples of denial of services and acceptance to other races.

It says nothing about dressage as a sport, just that racism and barriers aren’t always something one can see, but often exist kind of invisibly and subtly.

The reason blacks can’t be racist under that definition (which is just an excerpt from a book) is that in our society in the US, the power balance lies with whites. So although a black person could refuse to hire a white person for a job, black people as a whole cannot prevent white people as a whole from improving their living standards. So individual acts of prejudice or hate by minorities don’t have the same societal effect. Since societal effect is the focus of the study, the definition is reserved for acts by the race/ethnicity in power (and it exists to varying extents in most cultures).

I’d be happy to discuss it further in PM, the entire subject makes people very uncomfortable (sociologists love to do that!). I’m just pointing out that when you hear people say things like “blacks can’t be racist,” they are simply using a definition of racism that differs quite significantly from the definition most people use.

[Ajierene]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3409672]
It says nothing about dressage as a sport, just that racism and barriers aren’t always something one can see, but often exist kind of invisibly and subtly.

The reason blacks can’t be racist under that definition (which is just an excerpt from a book) is that in our society in the US, the power balance lies with whites. So although a black person could refuse to hire a white person for a job, black people as a whole cannot prevent white people as a whole from improving their living standards. So individual acts of prejudice or hate by minorities don’t have the same societal effect. Since societal effect is the focus of the study, the definition is reserved for acts by the race/ethnicity in power (and it exists to varying extents in most cultures).

I’d be happy to discuss it further in PM, the entire subject makes people very uncomfortable (sociologists love to do that!). I’m just pointing out that when you hear people say things like “blacks can’t be racist,” they are simply using a definition of racism that differs quite significantly from the definition most people use.[/QUOTE]

It is true that racial barriers are not always evident, but they go both ways.

It is false that a white person can refuse to hire a black person due to race - Affirmative Action has made this impossible without huge ramification.

If a black person feels that they are being discriminated against by their employer due to their race, they have a much greater chance of winning a law suit opposed to a white person in the same scenario. This can prevent a white person from improving their social standing. Affirmative Action has been blamed (though it is not always responsible) for hiring or promotion actions. While it is not always the reason, it is often enough the reason that it can be argued that it does prevent enough white people from improving their lives that the aspect of race is negligible. If you think individual acts of black on white hate do not have an effect, you need to visit cities on the east coast more often.

The people that I know that say blacks cannot be racist have most likely never studied sociology and have never seen that definition.

So the definition you described still does not mean that dressage as a sport, or organization, is racist. In order to prove that it is passively racist, you would have to show where a black person was given a lower score on an equal test or denied a position in an organization, etc. Which is my point.

[Carol_Ames]

ust\wait?

Who knows ?,maybe the person who, won "Americas’next equestrian star;)’ will make it there,if she can find the sponsors with big $$$:lol:

[Carol_Ames]

uswait?

Who knows ?,maybe the person who, won "Americas’next equestrian star’ will make it there,if she can find the sponsors with big $$$

[Shiaway]

Before this gets locked, can someone tell me where I can see a picture of the pair because I’m dying to see the lusitano! I’m so glad there will be lusitano(s) at the olympics. For some reason the original link isn’t working for me.

[CosmosMariner]

Good For Him

The barrier or divide certainly exists. Next time you are at a show take note on how many riders of color there are. Not many.

Whatever the reason I am glad to see them here. I am glad he made it and can show a whole generation that they belong.

I have two very good friends both african american who show. One is male and the other female. BOTH are constantly asked if they are grooms or stable hands. I have witnessed this. The man has actually had someone hand their horse off to him to walk it out. He graciously said “No, I cannot walk your horse I need to ride in the next class”.

I too only have a handful of non-caucasion students. IMO diversity is a wonderful thing.

[Sabine]

I think that there is a great barrier- in the US and possibly in other countries- not so sure about Europe.
I think that black equestrians are few and far because the sport is not accessible to the majority. I think that they have by their genetical makeup an insane ability and possiblity to be successful in dressage and all other equestrian sports-and I would welcome to see more equestrians of black heritage…but- in the US- the urban areas are being wiped out in regards to equestrian sports- due to the lack of urban planning (a foreign word in the US- YEAH!) and most cultural trends in the south of the US do not point youngsters to equestrian endeavors- so it’s again up to the parents to seek out, support and pay for the riding education.

Thank you for bringing up the Brazilian success story - what a great backdrop to the Olympics- I hope he is very succesful!!!

[equusrocks]

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&resnum=0&q=rogerio%20clementino&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Regardless of his race, good for him.

I love the ears on that horse…

[Foxtrot_s]

Thanks - I’ll be watching, and cheering, for him.

[DownYonder]

Good Lord, I had no idea my post would cause such a debate!

Whatever one’s feelings about “racism” (and its definition), I think this young man’s story is quite newsworthy. Kudos to him, and also to his employer for recognizing his talent and giving him the opportunity to grow far beyond his “stable hand” role. I wish him super good luck at the Olympics!