Bloat Prevention Surgery: Update - post # 40

[hosspuller]

Squishthebunny … What do you consider early enough ? I Fed my Dobes their evening meal at 6pm. By 8pm we were at the Emergency clinic. (30 minute ride) We called ahead so they were ready. Took him in through a full waiting room for x-rays, CBC, IV fluids, etc.

To all following this thread … He had the classic signs. Unproductive retching and bloated abdomen.

My experience with how quickly the Bloat took him down is the reason, I’m investigating the gastropexy. Was his case atypical ? I don’t think we could have caught the bloat any quicker. And more likely, we’ll be horse camping with emergency vet miles and hours away if even available…

[Debbie]

Hosspuller, my two dogs presented very differently. The one that passed showed acute symptoms within an hour of eating and was rushed to the emergency vet. His prognosis was poor, so we declined the surgery. Our Dane showed very mild symptoms several hours after eating, but I was on high alert, so we immediately made a high speed run to the e-clinic 45 minutes away. He had flipped and it was a very difficult surgery including spleen removal.

The takeaway is that the timeline to treatment from discovery was almost identical, but the severity of the first case was much more intense.

Having dealt with it twice and having a breed that is clearly predisposed to bloat, I think the plexy is worth the risk and expense of an elective procedure. Others views will vary of course.

[Lynnwood]

My family has owned / bred GSD’s for my whole life 35 plus years. No GDV issues. Fate sought to change that when I moved to Cali and my own GSD suffered from bloat then GDV and passed away because of complications. He was stricken with Disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC) . I was heart broken then and still hate that I lost him that way. I was at the time a surgical tech for a referral veterinary practice and still helpless. His was caught super early and he still developed fatal complications post surgery.

I have had all of my personal Sheps pexy’d since then. It gives me peace of mind that if I’m out all day working I don’t have to worry about coming home to find out that one of them bloated , twisted and suffered.

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=hosspuller;8271949]
Squishthebunny … What do you consider early enough ? I Fed my Dobes their evening meal at 6pm. By 8pm we were at the Emergency clinic. (30 minute ride) We called ahead so they were ready. Took him in through a full waiting room for x-rays, CBC, IV fluids, etc.

To all following this thread … He had the classic signs. Unproductive retching and bloated abdomen.

My experience with how quickly the Bloat took him down is the reason, I’m investigating the gastropexy. Was his case atypical ? I don’t think we could have caught the bloat any quicker. And more likely, we’ll be horse camping with emergency vet miles and hours away if even available…[/QUOTE]

Sometimes time is less of an issue than the way the stomach twisted, if the spleen went with it, eTC are better prognosticator. So very sorry for your loss.

[SquishTheBunny]

Usually the stomach will return to normal function within two hours, it’s all dependency on what percentage of the blood supply is cut off. Some retain blood supply while others lose it all. I would think the renal disease you said your dog had was more of the deciding factor for you? While recovery isn’t guaranteed, I have seen hundreds recover that have been torsed for 2-3 hours. I have also seen “easy” ones crash after sx. The spleen can come out so doesn’t really make a huge difference in outcome, other than anesthetic time.

I would definitely recommend a pexy especially if there is a family history.

[hosspuller]

Squishthe bunny … Thanks for the follow-up. We almost lost him to rennal failure 18 months previously. Then another less severe event without definite cause a few months later, so that was a large factor in my decision. It is still a hard choice as you likely see often…

My other Dobe is not related, and don’t have any knowledge of his family history. His chest is markedly deeper than the bloated Dobe, so I expect a higher chance of bloat.

For the gastropexy: An experienced laproscopy vet is 2 hours away vs an experienced conventional vet 1/2 hour away. Post op complications aside. Along with 30% higher costs, is laproscopy that much better for the dog?

[Houndhill]

Sent you a PM.

[Horsegal984]

For me, experience is a bigger deciding factor than laparoscopic vs regular. How many times have they done this? How frequently? ETC.

It is possible for a dog to torse around the pexy site, though very uncommon. So please don’t fall into the trap of thinking you can ignore GDV signs because no way can he be twisted, he’s tacked! In 10 years I’ve seen it once, and those owners did surgery. We tacked the other side of the stomach too, and the dog is doing great.

[hosspuller]

@Horsegal984;8273973

For me, experience is a bigger deciding factor than laparoscopic vs regular. How many times have they done this? How frequently? ETC.

Thanks for yur thoughts…

Both gastropexy vets have a full schedule of GP’s behind them. I am concerned about post op complications with a vet two hours away.

We made the mistake of cuddling a cute 16 pound Doberman puppy to sleep. Now that he’s grown to 80 pounds, he still thinks of himself and us as bed partners. He throws himself against anybody in bed. Thoughts of torsion fill me as he twists into sleep position.

[Bearhunter]

I have had two Standard Poodles that have had the bloat (both with torque.) Both survived the surgeries thankfully. The first was almost 30 years ago and we were told she had a 1% chance of survival. She was such a strong and tough dog (she was huge and lived till 16) so it was not surprising she made it. Much more recently, my male (of VERY similar stature and size) bloated and because of my prior experience, I knew the signs and was able to act immediately. He was very young (2 years) and has been just fine.

I have another younger Standard and chose not do the preventative surgery. While bloat does run in the breed, his conformation is vastly different than my two that bloated. I have owned many over the years and would only consider the surgery on a dog that was VERY large and barrel chested. If I had another built like my big boy now, I would seriously consider it. It is so horribly traumatic to go through.

I actually had a volvulus myself about 20 years ago. A seriously painful surgery! But my surgeon explained (as did my vet!) that once the intestines are tacked down, bloating again will not happen. However, gas episodes can occur which is why my vet prescribed anti-gas medicine. It’s been 6 years, and my boy is healthy and happy!

[Sunwhinnies]

So sorry Hosspuller about your Dobe. But thank you for sharing your journey with us. Having owned many, many dogs over the years, this one’s new to me. Always appreciate the varied experiences everyone has.

Stupid question though. Besides the genetic predisposition, what are the other causes?

[hosspuller]

[QUOTE=Sunwhinnies;8275442]
So sorry Hosspuller about your Dobe. But thank you for sharing your journey with us. Having owned many, many dogs over the years, this one’s new to me. Always appreciate the varied experiences everyone has.

Stupid question though. Besides the genetic predisposition, what are the other causes?[/QUOTE]

Only stupid question is the unasked…

"…Vets aren’t sure what causes bloat, but there are some things that raise a dog’s risk for it, including:
Eating from a raised food bowl
Having one large meal a day
Eating quickly
A lot of running or playing after he eats
Other dogs he’s related to have had bloat
Eating or drinking too much
Stress

Any dog can have bloat, but it’s much more common in deep-chested, large breeds , like Akitas, Boxers, Bassett Hounds, and German Shepherds. Some are at a higher risk than others, including Great Danes, Gordon Setters, Irish Setters, Weimaraners, and St. Bernards.

Source: http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/gastric-volvulus-bloat-dogs

Add to the list … Doberman. My Dog had just had a meal and was out playing with the other Dobe. I saw them rolling about and wrestling as usual. Didn’t think anything about it. I suspect, recent meal, rapid eating since they always checked each other’s empty dish and rough play contributed or caused the twisted stomach.

The other Dobe is unrelated, but has a markedly deeper chest. Hence my concern and desire never to go through that again.

[Lazy_Palomino_Hunter]

I’m so sorry about your dog, that is awful. I can’t imagine going through that.

As a general FYI for anyone reading this thread, many “known” risk factors for bloat aren’t actually risk factors at all- bloating is unrelated to the timing of exercise following eating, raised bowls actually increase the risk, etc.
[URL=“http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_1/features/15682-1.html”]
Here’s a good article about the empirical evidence they’ve found for bloat- the primary risk factors are (1) eating only once a day, and eating quickly, (2) having a nervous temperament, (3) a first-degree relative who has bloated, (4/5) eating a food with a fat source or citric acid in the first four ingredients (especially if it’s been wet down), and (6) eating out of a raised food bowl.

Eating a food with rendered meat meal in the first four ingredients (especially one that includes bone), or raw food, decreases the risk for bloat substantially.

A littermate of my dog’s mother died of bloat (asymptomatic bloat, too, which is extra terrifying). After taking my guy in for a $$ emergency vet visit for “possible bloat”–a false alarm–for peace of mind we opted for a prophylactic gastropexy when he was neutered at 12 months.

I’d recommend calling around. I live in northeast Ohio and initially called around a dozen local vets with practices of various sizes. Nearly all of them charged the same price for the prophylactic procedure as the emergency procedure - in the $1600-$3200 range, depending on whether it was done laproscopically or the traditional way.

Since I live relatively close to Purdue (where they do the majority of bloat research), I called their teaching hospital and ended up having the procedure done there when my dog was 12 months old. The total cost was about $750, including bloodwork, the neuter, and a laproscopic incisional gastropexy (here’s an overview of the different kinds of pexies). He had two small (~2-3") incisions, one at the midline of his abdomen and the other up on his right side near his rib cage. My pup has a very low pain tolerance and the first few days post-surgery were a little rough, but otherwise the entire thing was uneventful.

The cost might have been a bit lower for me because I took my dog home from the hospital as soon as he recovered from the anesthesia, rather than staying for the 24 hours they initially suggested. (I’m knowledgeable enough about how to identify a medical emergency, and as my dog is a severe separation anxiety case his behaviorist worked jointly with Purdue to decide it was less risky for him to be home than potentially freaking out in a strange crate post-surgery).

For me, the surgery was well worth the peace of mind it offered. I don’t have to have heart palpitations and envision worst-case scenarios every time he pants or gags unexpectedly.

As was calling around to get estimates. Teaching hospitals seem to be the way to go.

[sockmonkey]

That’s very unusual as teaching hospitals are usually way more expensive than private practices. I’m glad it worked out for you.:yes:

[Lazy_Palomino_Hunter]

[QUOTE=sockmonkey;8277695]
That’s very unusual as teaching hospitals are usually way more expensive than private practices. I’m glad it worked out for you.:yes:[/QUOTE]

I just pulled out the list of quotes from a year ago (I can’t even believe I still have them!). Everything is a laproscopic quote unless otherwise indicated.

Local hospitals:
Big local hospital #1 - $3,200-$3,600
Big local hospital #2 - $2,200
Small local hospital #1 - $1,600-$1,800
Small local hospital #2 - $2,500
Mid-size local hospital - $1,850 (non-laproscopic), $2,600 (laproscopic)

Teaching hospitals:
Cornell - $600 but with a 4 month wait time
Virginia Tech - $975
Ohio State - $1,600 but NOT laproscopic
Purdue - $560 + bloodwork and pain meds

I bet the cost of teaching vs. regular hospitals varies by procedure and emergency vs. non-emergency status. If my research is any indication, teaching hospitals are the cheaper option for this particular procedure when it is done as a prophylactic measure. :yes:

[hosspuller]

@Lazy Palomino Hunter;8277477

[URL=“http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_1/features/15682-1.html”]
Here’s a good article about the empirical evidence they’ve found for bloat- the primary risk factors are (1) eating only once a day, and eating quickly, (2) having a nervous temperament, (3) a first-degree relative who has bloated, (4/5) eating a food with a fat source or citric acid in the first four ingredients (especially if it’s been wet down), and (6) eating out of a raised food bowl.

This is interesting … "eating a food with a fat source or citric acid in the first four ingredients "

Because of the kidney failure event, he was on Hill’s K/D prescription food. The second ingredient is Pork Fat. It is far from cheap food. :eek:

[Houndhill]

Please, hosspuller, don’t beat yourself up or second guess yourself because of one study.

I comtinue to feed raised, as do most IW people I know, despite the correlation with raised food bowls and bloat. It just makes sense to us, rather than having them eat like giraffes. Correlation does not imply causation.

You have to take these studies into account, yet take them into account with breeders who have a great deal of experience.

It does seem like one thing that stands out, when you read the original studies, is the less commercial dry dog food, the less chance of bloat, whether it is canned dog food, “table scraps” etc., the more of this, the less likely GDV.

It is a bit buried in the results, but look.

[SquishTheBunny]

Fwiw the last 3 dogs that came in with a bloat all ate raw. Sometimes, there isn’t much you can do to prevent something like this. Gas retention happens, sometimes without even having food. Its the dissension of the stomach that usually leads to a torsion, not a stomach full of food. Dogs.who gulp air while eating or drinking are more likely to bloat than dogs who eat slow. But most don’t lead to a gdv. My lab x bloats weekly…never torsed. She eats anything and everything before its even hit her food bowl.

[Horsegal984]

I would say the top breeds we see with a GDV are Dane, Weimeriner and Dobes. Honestly I think a lot of the Weims are because they’re stressed out idiots, the Danes biggest risk factor is that they’re Dane’s and the Dobes are usually a combo of conformation and stress.

The worst I’ve ever seen was in an English bulldog, her stomach went all the way around twice, then flipped lengthwise. It was a disaster.

[hosspuller]

Three weeks ago… My Dobe had the Gastropexy surgery. I chose the conventional surgery for two reasons. The laproscopic vet was two & 1/2 hours away and the cost was about double. Perhaps the time in the “Collar of Shame” would have been less. 17 days (we were lax at one point and he pulled some staples out, licking. Local vet put some back and we were much more alert) Titus, The Dobe is doing well and running around as normal.

Thanks to all who responded and posted their experiences.