Bloodline personalities or my horse hates me . . .

[Foxglove]

I have had a Hancock gelding for 12 years. We’ve done thousands of trail miles together --lived together on the trail for two weeks, he and I, riding across MI camping all the way. I care for him like a prince --best of everything. All I ask in return is a nicker when I come in the barn, or a look of love, or an affectionate nuzzle. Nope. Never. Na-da. Stands like a stone staring at a wall unless there’s food involved, then he’ll eat it and go back to being a grump. More than one Western rider has said, “Typical of a Hancock. They are hard to train, but once they know their job, they can’t be beat. Never warm up to people.” Is that true, or does he have a grudge against me for some reason? And I don’t think it’s me because . . .

I just bought a Freckles Playboy/Poco Bueno gelding who LOVES me --he runs to me in the field, begs to be patted, neighs when he sees me --and works as hard as the Hancock horse. I don’t know about if he’s easy to train because he’s well trained to start with. But having said how affectionate he is toward ME, I contacted his previous 3 owners and ALL of them said he was a great horse --loved him --and he loved them! Two sent me photos of him being clearly affectionate with his previous owners . . .so it’s not me?

Freckles Playboy line owners seem to have the opinion that their horses have, “lots of personality! good sense of humor!”
Do you think it’s possible that personality is decided by breeding and not how the horse is treated? FYI I know the previous owners of both horses --neither one was abused or mistreated.

[bugsynskeeter]

Yes. Some lines are much more personable than other. Hancocks were bred to be work horses and work on the range. They weren’t bred to be show horses and in your pocket.

I’ve been around numerous Freckles Playboy horses and they all have a much more loving attitude.

[Bluey]

I have a Freckles Playboy that is the best buddy you can have in a horse.
That is just what they are, along with many other talents, a very polite, considerate puppy dog personality.
Who would not love that?

The older ranch horse types were aloof, that is just how they were

My old horse was like that, fine with me too, he still knew I was his person and watched out for me, he just was not effusive.
Grump is the right word, just stood there like he was bothered, just leave him be, happy just being a horse.

Many people don’t get along with the Hancock personality, they won’t touch one, because they want a more effusive type horse.
Breeders that cross Hancock with Driftwood find that the cross becomes more amenable and friendly.

As always, that also depends on the individual horse, not all inherit all character traits.

[sorrelfilly721]

I have seen that antisocial attitude in Hancock bred horses as well. Good ponies, but not lovers.

[cutter99]

I have three Doc O’Lena geldings, who are all pretty similar in personality. They are all intelligent, quick learners and people oriented. I do have one grump, who will act standoffish and pretend to not want to be caught. He has had some time off this year due to a health issue, and oh boy does he snap to attention when another horse gets saddled and we head out.

I do believe, though, that some horses and people just do not click. I had a beautiful paint gelding at one point (again, Doc O’Lena bred), who I just did not get along with. It wasn’t like World War III or any major battles, but he would be the last horse I chose to ride out of a barn of five. I had a friend who saw him, fell in love with him, and I had no issues with him being sold. None of the horses I own currently will ever leave.

[Bluey]

We have had plenty of Doc O’Lena bred horses, all have the best work ethic of any horse anywhere.
They also have been lighter made but can take tons of work, thrive on it and stay very sound.
A bit on the nervous side, more fence walkers/weavers/cinchy and such in them than other lines produce.
The “need a job” kind of horse that will invent one if you don’t provide them with plenty of entertainment.

The ones I have had and known were people oriented, but not really to the point of wanting to be your buddy, just agreeable to working and being around their people and always interested in all that is going around.
They are not pushy, but a little shy maybe, sweet souls that you want to care for, won’t have to ask to mind their manners, they come with the best of those installed.
They are some of the most biddable horses, they will work to the end, few will ever show resistances, much less bucking, rearing or any such, not without extreme provocation.
Some trainers don’t like them because they want a horse that is less sensitive, more forgiving when things don’t go right, don’t want one that needs a trainer with much patience to cater to their occasional insecurities when young.

They make when older and well trained great kid’s horses because they tend to be smaller, wirier and easier for kids to handle and willingly will go along with anything, be safe to be around and ride, tend to be smooth moving and take good care of their person on the ground and riding.
The only caution, they are very sensitive and also extremely athletic, so they need a quiet rider that can stay with them when asked to do anything more than poking along.

All that tends to come thru over other line’s characteristics, seems very dominant traits in Doc O’Lenas.
Many have bred them back to each other, double bred Doc O’Lenas are common and those tend to be the more nervous ones we had.

https://www.aqha.com/museum/hall-of-…s/d/doc-olena/

There is good reason Doc O’Lena is a leading sire and grandsire.

[beau159]

Like people, horses all have different personalities.

I used to have a horse name Scooter in high school that I learned so much from - he was so sensitive to aids and so well trained. But he just wasn’t much of an “affection” type of guy. He’d tolerate you rubbing and brushing on him, but he didn’t really care for it. He wanted to go do his job. And that’s about it.

My old horse Beau was more of a ho-hum type of guy. Don’t get me wrong, he’d be plenty happy when he’d see an oats bucket coming out to the pasture, but his excitement was for the oats and not me. Did his job very well for me but just not lovey-dovey or very personable.

There there was my Cherry I had for a couple years. She LOVED people. She’d be up seeing what we were doing while all the other horses we way out in the pasture. She’d follow you around like a puppy dog. She just loved human interaction.

My current boys, Red and Shotgun, both have too much personality for their own good, haha. Shotgun is more personable than Red, but they both love attention. Red won’t follow me around like a puppy dog … but Shotgun will. He loves attention.

All these hoses were bred differently. Some bloodlines have certain general characteristics, but all horses are their own unique individual. My Shotgun is bred Mr Illuminator who generally throws broncy horses with attitude … and Shotgun is the total opposite. He’s already a perfect kids horse for my daughter (when she’s big enough) and he’s only 6 this year. So they don’t always follow the temperment of their bloodlines.

[findeight]

The ones closer to Three Bars (TB) himself were energetic worker bees and when crossed the serious cow type working horses, created something besides a placid and stoic stock type. Back when, late 60s, early 70s, I had both Three Bars and Foundation (King bred thru the Pocos, Leo and a Hancock) grandkids and they required more tact and consistency, sometimes picking up a bad reputation from old timey trainers used to slapping the saddle on and yanking them around. That was tolerated by the traditional mid century stock types, not so much with the smarter, more ambitious ones of more refined type that started becoming more popular about the mid 1950s. They made trainers who could deal with them superstars.

But… IMO, unless you have a very heavily inbred horse over 10-15 generations, the influence on temperament of a foundation sire that’s been dead for 50+ years is questionable.

Also IMO, I’ve seen a whole lot of bad handling and training thrown into the " Well, it’s a XXXXX bred, they are like that". No, they usually are not “just like that” decades from a long dead ancestor. That goes for QHs, TBs and Arabs.

[Bluey]

@findeight

The ones closer to Three Bars (TB) himself were energetic worker bees and when crossed the serious cow type working horses, created something besides a placid and stoic stock type. Back when, late 60s, early 70s, I had both Three Bars and Foundation (King bred thru the Pocos, Leo and a Hancock) grandkids and they required more tact and consistency, sometimes picking up a bad reputation from old timey trainers used to slapping the saddle on and yanking them around. That was tolerated by the traditional mid century stock types, not so much with the smarter, more ambitious ones of more refined type that started becoming more popular about the mid 1950s. They made trainers who could deal with them superstars.

But… IMO, unless you have a very heavily inbred horse over 10-15 generations, the influence on temperament of a foundation sire that’s been dead for 50+ years is questionable.

Also IMO, I’ve seen a whole lot of bad handling and training thrown into the " Well, it’s a XXXXX bred, they are like that". No, they usually are not “just like that” decades from a long dead ancestor. That goes for QHs, TBs and Arabs.

True that.

Then, there are still some bred close to the old lines, like the Colonel Freckles we have, that is his grandson and his dam a grand daughter of another sire known for superb disposition in many of his offspring, Docs Solano.
He gets his sterling disposition honestly and directly from both sides.

That doesn’t mean a full brother to him may have inherited some other, less amenable traits also.
Personality is indeed all about each individual horse.
We do try to improve our odds of getting the traits we are after by how we bred horses, why we keep records, study them, hope for the best and some times get lucky to get it.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I have a Doc Solano gelding who is one of my very favorite beings on the planet! What a great little guy - smart, willing, sweet, athletic, sound. Just cannot say enough good things about him.

ETA: Just saw this from findeight
“I had both Three Bars and Foundation (King bred thru the Pocos, Leo and a Hancock) grandkids and they required more tact and consistency, sometimes picking up a bad reputation from old timey trainers used to slapping the saddle on and yanking them around.”

My gelding may be that same breeding - lots of Docs, Pocos and Leos. And he sure fits your description! He’s sweet though and will agree to do almost anything if approached correctly. But do you find yours to be a little on the reactive side?

Mine has a big drop-and-spin move when startled. I really don’t think he can help it - he doesn’t bolt off after he does it. If he’s managed to dump his rider he’ll stop and graze afterward. He didn’t use to do it very often - but I’m bringing him back into work after a year off so naturally right now he’s a little jumpier than usual. Any insights into how to help one of these guys relax would be welcome. Right now I’m just getting him out every day and hand-walking him different places so he can see things while I’m not sitting on him.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

@findeight

The ones closer to Three Bars (TB) himself were energetic worker bees and when crossed the serious cow type working horses, created something besides a placid and stoic stock type. Back when, late 60s, early 70s, I had both Three Bars and Foundation (King bred thru the Pocos, Leo and a Hancock) grandkids and they required more tact and consistency, sometimes picking up a bad reputation from old timey trainers used to slapping the saddle on and yanking them around. .

Oh, I think I have one of those! His sire’s line is full of lots of Pocos and Leos and Docs. He is not a horse you can muscle around, but he is very sweet and curious and smart so will do as you ask if you’re tactful about it. But do you find yours to be a little on the reactive side?

[Bluey]

@pAin't_Misbehavin'

I have a Doc Solano gelding who is one of my very favorite beings on the planet! What a great little guy - smart, willing, sweet, athletic, sound. Just cannot say enough good things about him.

What can y’all tell me about the Leo’s? I have another gelding who has a lot of Leo’s in his sire’s dam’s line - Leo, Leo Gann, Mr. Spanish Leo, Zantaleo, etc. He’s an interesting personality - loads of talent, smart, good-looking and sweet but I’m trying to find a way to help him not be so darn reactive. Any insights would sure be welcomed!

I am not familiar with Leo Gann or Zantaleo, sorry.

Leo himself was double bred Joe Reed and as such, some are greats and he was one of those,
He happen to get all good genes and passed them on reliably.

The Leo/Three Bar crosses have been some that built the AQHA, many of those are at the foundation of what we have today.

I would say Leo was siring very nice disposition, if a little more of a joker type, could have a funny streak to them that not everyone appreciated.

I do think they were amateur friendly horses, why they did so well in so many venues.
The Three Bars/Leo cross was a tremendous one, crossing the hotter horses with the some think more cold blood in the Leo ones.

The Wiescamp bred horses, going back to Skipper W and Nick Shoemaker, tended to be more reserved and the “show me” kind, not everyone got along with some of them.
Jack Kyle got to show most of them for Wiescamp and beat everyone else with them, but some others didn’t have so much luck.
You had to tease a real good work ethic out of them, unlike, say, the eager beaver Doc O’Lenas you had to say, “thats enough, lets slow down for a minute here”.
They were generally about bombproof, not the kind to act up and become dangerous, but would not be as forthcoming with doing what you ask if they didn’t want to or agreed it was what they needed to do.

I think your horse may have some more influence from the others in it’s pedigree than Leo itself, for what you say.
They were not that reactive a horse to be of concern, any of those.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Wow, thanks Bluey. Somehow I deleted the post you quoted, so thank you for saving it.

And thank you for all that information! Very interesting. Conjure is absolutely a joker. I remember once my trainer was lunging him and asked him to jump over a little hard plastic pole set into a slot across two plastic blocks. He very calmly stopped, picked up the pole, set it to one side, and trotted through the blocks as though nothing unusual had happened. :lol:

When he’s in work, he actually is calm most of the time. Makes those (thankfully infrequent) big drop-and-spin spooks all the more surprising. I’ll just see if I can’t get him more in touch with the Leo side than with whoever contributed the “eek” gene.

[findeight]

@pAin't_Misbehavin'

Oh, I think I have one of those! His sire’s line is full of lots of Pocos and Leos and Docs. He is not a horse you can muscle around, but he is very sweet and curious and smart so will do as you ask if you’re tactful about it. But do you find yours to be a little on the reactive side?

Did, not do. Had them 35-40 years ago, the cast of characters was much closer up then you’d find in a horse still living today hence more influential temperament wise

I dont think reactive is the right word. Think Bluely hit on it when talking about the Skipper horses being " show me" oriented and reserved. Think the King bred, especially through the Pocos were similar, they weren’t…generous… unless you were clear about what you wanted and they weren’t shy about pushing back if they felt forced. Not everybody got along with them.

I had an own grandson of Three Bars (TB), cannot remember what was on the bottom, think it was a Hank bred. Anyway, lots of friends also had the Thre Bars offspring, was in So Cal and he was local plus prolific. Most of those, including mine, were closer to reactive, but didn’t have that short a fuse. They studied their options as opposed to just blowing up. Smart handler would read that easily and avoid the explosion. Old timey spur and jerk types missed it and dealt with the resulting explosion. You just did not yahoo these horses-they’d pushback,some never did get on well with them. Came down to being smarter then the horse.

There was a trainer back then, Tommy Manion, who did quite well because he figured those horses out and knew how to work with them, often going from the QH track to All Around Champions. Whole thing was a gamechanger in the QH world and as the type became more popular, other trainers needed to change their approach or get left in the dust.

Anyway, some of those who could not figure out why their old timey training techniques (snub em,slap on a saddle and buck em out) didn’t work were the ones who originated the theory they were “hot” and hard to work with. Think some today recite that old stereotype when they are equally unsuccessful working with a descendent for the same reason…and it’s not the horse or it’s relatives.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I agree. I’m a big believer in tact. Thanks for your response. I just now, thanks to Bluey’s other thread, found out about the Legends series of books and ordered Vol 1. I’m a southerner and we love knowing about everybody’s ancestors. :lol: