Blue Hors drops Doolittle for poor foals

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;4627898]
Actually, I find it a bit odd/amusing that they scuttled Doolittle and keep Hotline. In my experience Hotline is not stamping his offspring. They seem to run the gamut and need a particular sort of mare. I like my coming 2 year old by Hotline, but he was not a foal to sell himself quickly and I think it will take being under saddle for him to show himself for what he is. That seems to be the case with many of them. So, I find it very interesting that they have kept Hotline in the roster, while dumping Doolittle for what sound like similar traits that are being passed.[/QUOTE]

Hotline is big and black (well, dark brown). And he throws big, dark foals. Dressage breeders like dark foals because they sell better, and upper level dressage riders tend to like big horses. So there is a bigger market for “big, dark foals”.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;4628256]
Hotline is big and black (well, dark brown). And he throws big, dark foals. Dressage breeders like dark foals because they sell better, and upper level dressage riders tend to like big horses. So there is a bigger market for “big, dark foals”.[/QUOTE]

I do not mean to pick on Hotline but I agree with HAF on this.

I have seen a few Hotlines turn into real swans around age 2 or 3 - after being homely at best from the time they hit the ground. But they are really inconsistent. And the ones that I have seen that are really nice are out of superb mares and take after their mums.

I get that some buyers are smitten by dark coats but really I don’t think they are blinded by them.

[redhorse5]

This thread is interesting to me. I can’t fault breeders for trying to get rid of horses that don’t meet their expectations. But just consider the horse that I have right now in my barn.

Lucky (Luciano) is an Aleksander baby who was born in 1975. He was over the knee, 15’3 but trained to GP when I got him. I have owned him for 18 years. I rode him until he was 27. He was easy to sit, never spooked or got strong, kind, sweet and the ultimate AA horse. He offered up GP movements, did single tempi changes until the day I retired him, never ever caused me a single problem. I wish I could clone him. His temperament alone made him worth his weight in gold. I would give anything to have him back for just one more ride. He does piaffe at the gate when he wants to come in and still does an occasional levade when he gets too little hay. Why can’t you breed more of him? I’m your customer.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;4628297]
I do not mean to pick on Hotline but I agree with HAF on this.

I have seen a few Hotlines turn into real swans around age 2 or 3 - after being homely at best from the time they hit the ground. But they are really inconsistent. And the ones that I have seen that are really nice are out of superb mares and take after their mums.

I get that some buyers are smitten by dark coats but really I don’t think they are blinded by them.[/QUOTE]

LOL, if I had a nickel for every dressage breeder who has asked me for recommendations for stallions that throw “dark” foals, I would be able to afford top seats at Dressage Masters. :lol:

I also get those comments from FEI riders - including a few who insist that “big, dark horses” are far more impressive coming down centerline. I certainly don’t like that sentiment - in fact, I hate it, since I much prefer red horses, but that seems to be the prevailing sentiment with some folks. That is why I laugh whenever I hear about horses like Parzival, etc., doing so well.

[redhorse5]

I was just wondering. If some of the foals have been to inspections, aren’t there pictures of some of them?

[Go_Fish]

I think Kathy nailed it. This is a BUSINESS decision.

The “stock” analogy is interesting. Buying stock is a crapshoot. If you breed to a young stallion with nothing on the ground to evaluate, it’s a risk, just like buying stock. There’s no guarantee that the “stock” will produce or gain in value. Now, you can buy “established” stock with a proven track record. That increases your odds.

Sort of like all the people who flocked to Hickstead. Wasn’t that at $3K a pop?

[RedMare01]

I thought in the pic on his website, Doolittle was black? But not homozygous, because one of the foals I linked to earlier was chestnut.

Caitlin

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=redhorse5;4628357]
This thread is interesting to me. I can’t fault breeders for trying to get rid of horses that don’t meet their expectations. But just consider the horse that I have right now in my barn.

Lucky (Luciano) is an Aleksander baby who was born in 1975. He was over the knee, 15’3 but trained to GP when I got him. I have owned him for 18 years. I rode him until he was 27. He was easy to sit, never spooked or got strong, kind, sweet and the ultimate AA horse. He offered up GP movements, did single tempi changes until the day I retired him, never ever caused me a single problem. I wish I could clone him. His temperament alone made him worth his weight in gold. I would give anything to have him back for just one more ride. He does piaffe at the gate when he wants to come in and still does an occasional levade when he gets too little hay. Why can’t you breed more of him? I’m your customer.[/QUOTE]

Isn’t this the truth. For starters, for the last 20 years I have been wondering, WHY do dressage horses need to be so big? So there can be more broken ones lying around?

Another thing that bugs me is that so many of these so-called big fancy movers don’t even move that well. Blickpunkt for me really stood out among the young horses I’ve seen recently because he uses his hind legs so well.

[redhorse5]

http://www.asspenranch.com/breeding.htm

Wow. Apparently he’s already found another home.

[3Dogs]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Canterbury_Court]

[QUOTE=redhorse5;4628949]
http://www.asspenranch.com/breeding.htm

Wow. Apparently he’s already found another home.[/QUOTE]

Does this come under the category of “I laughed my a** off”?

[Indy-lou]

Yankee Lawyer and Home Again Farm have verbalized what I was also thinking about Hotline. Not a “foal maker”, but that is true of so many stallions whose progeny go on to do well.
Can’t discount the mares in the equation. Some stallions are inconsistent.
Many top horses come from stallions who had less than stellar foal reports (Contango, for example)
There are no clear or easy paths in the business of breeding good horses.
We can chew this decision about Doolittle to pieces, but in the end, if the pairing was good and all things work in favor, there could be good offspring.
Blu Hors is doing what they think is best for Blu Hors. Don’t we all? We can only say that we wish the decision and the subsequent marketing fallout were handled differently, but there are so many factors in getting a horse from breeding decision to under saddle and then into competition.
Hopefully, breeders will learn something along the way. For each of us, maybe something different. I think this thread has been very valuable for mare owners to “chew” some more on stallion picks. That is all you can say, IMO. And if folks “chew” on decisions just a little bit more, then perhaps a good thing.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=redhorse5;4628949]
http://www.asspenranch.com/breeding.htm

Wow. Apparently he’s already found another home.[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol:
I think I can see some of the flaws. :lol::lol:

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=RedMare01;4628510]
I thought in the pic on his website, Doolittle was black? But not homozygous, because one of the foals I linked to earlier was chestnut.[/QUOTE]

But not “big and black”. And it sounds as though he doesn’t make big foals. Hotline OTOH frequently makes very good sized foals. Many Hotlines are also pretty good movers. If Doolittle wasn’t putting big gaits on his foals, dressage breeders aren’t going to use him. If he produces flatter movers, they might be of interest to hunter people, but the Europeans do not breed specifically for hunters. Also, Doolittle does not have a jumping pedigree, and there is still a question about the type in his foals.

It basically sounds as though this nicely bred young stallion just had a “perfect storm” of marks against him as a sire.

[Janet]

Can’t read it, even at 200%.

[joiedevie99]

That’s better! Livaldon x Dark Eden (Doolitle x World Cup I/Lauries Crusador)

[GiantHim]

Here is a lovely example of what he can throw. [URL=“https://youtu.be/J0hNCWfHSA8”]https://youtu.be/J0hNCWfHSA8
https://www.eurodressage.com/2014/03/11/hot-shot-w-wins-2014-danish-warmblood-young-horse-championship-herning-0

[Libby2563]

@GiantHim!

I know this is an old thread but 10 years have passed and I am curious about Doolittle’s progeny now we have some perspective. I am considering buying a good moving 5 year old gelding that has him close in the dam line bred by the same breeder that bred this year’s hotshot black stallion Iron. What do you think of this pedigree?

I’m not a pedigree expert but I’d think a 5-year-old gelding could be evaluated pretty well on his own merits rather than who his grandsire was, right? Do you like the horse? Have you ridden him?

[ASB_Stars]

So here’s my dumbass question- was he gelded? Apparently not, but how does this work, as we move forward?

[anon69112984]

@Coppers mom

On the one hand, good. I wish more stallions were watched and dropped for bad foal crops. I applaud Blu Hors for being so responsible and not being “barn blind”.

On the other hand, that really, really stinks for anyone who’s bred to him. I wonder if the foals will grow up with some kind of stigma. I expect the fillies will, if any go on to be bred.

131 in the first year seems like a lot for such a young stallion, even though he did so well at his licensing. I wonder what in the world could be so wrong with them?

Also, I read it to say that just Blu Hors was dropping him. Is he in trouble with the registry as well?

I don’t know anything about this particular stallion but I truly agree with the above that more stallions should be watched and dropped.

And for me who just got into breeding again after a couple of years of not breeding I am STUNNED over the poor quality rubbish stallions that i.e. A.E.S. let through their system. Like 3 year old’s with horror conformation and obviously no results what so ever who can cover 30 mares no questions asked!