Blue Hors drops Doolittle for poor foals

[QUOTE=Kareen;4625870]
I don’t think people necessarily suspect a problem if a stallion is sold. Many stallions get sold and sometimes it is solely because the owner received a very good offer.
The question remains what benefit they saw in their announcement for anybody. If the foalcrop had been so alarmingly faulty they feel like permanently preventing him from breeding it would have been very easy to ‘create facts’ by gelding him… Enough said, I’m glad to hear they are giving out a free breeding to the affected mare owners. Sounds like the right thing to do.[/QUOTE]

sorry folks my comment was toungue in cheek :o

[QUOTE=DownYonder;4626196]
Until Blue Hors comes out and publically confirms such “conformation problems”, I am going to continue to wonder if the foals are simply not very typey, maybe small, and probably not big movers…[/QUOTE]

Write them and ask, I did and now I have an answer from the horse owner’s mouth.
They were very nice about it.
No one really has to speculate about it at all.
I figured if I can bother to post my thoughts, it would take the exact same effort to e-mail them.
The OP is entitled to her thoughts, and I think this has been a really thought provoking thread. In order for a discussion to be relevant it often has to touch on the controversial.

OK I’ve read all 9 pages of this thread waiting to find out what the problem with Doolittle’s offspring was. I still have no clue but it has been very interesting reading what appears to be an equine version of “Post Office.”

A few clarifications - 100 - 130 foals is not a large crop for a “hot” unproven stallion in Europe. Most of the breed organizations limit stallions to a maximum of 600 foals a year. At one point Weltmeyer was hitting that max for more than one breeding society. Numbers stallion owners here would die for.

Breeding is a crap shoot. If you want the dice loaded in your favor, only use a proven mare and proven sire and understand you can still get snake-eyes. It’sl no guarantee. If you are first on the band wagon for what turns out to be a great stallion (prepotent in performance and/or type) you will be able to sell your young horse for more. If you are selling foals you may be able to convince buyers that winning a certain contest or scoring a certain score on a performance test will translate into the foal being a suitable performance horse. Personally I know what my dam lines produce and I wait for at least one foal crop before breeding to the hottest thing. I also limit my self to “stamping” stallions as much as is possible. There are far too many great performance stallions that either don’t produce performers or who are so inconsistent in the type (ie very large or very small, very straight hind leg or normal hind leg, etc) that you are better off buying one of their offspring rather than breeding to the stallions themselves.

It is not infrequent that European breed organizations will de-select a stallion. The Hanoverians had a fabulous Bolero son named Borneo. He won the dressage portion at Adelheidsdorf, went to the Bundeschampionate, and made beautiful typey foals with outstanding movement. Unfortunately a high percentage of his offspring had a problem ( I currently cannot remember whether it was wobblers or roaring though I think it was wobblers). He was immediately gelded.

European breed organizations will limit stallions to 20 - 50 mares if they haven’t completed their full approval or if they have some reservations about how the stallions will produce (sorry I have no examples of how/why they make that determination). That’s still a sizable number of foals especially by US standards.

Good for Blue Hors for not continuing to breed a stallion that they or the Dansk Warmblood thought was not contributing to the improvement of the modern sporthorse.

For all of the European record keeping, scoring, etc, what I would really like to see is:

What % of highly thought of foals over the past 20 years have become successful FEI dressage horses?

What % of the top 500? dressage horses in the world were high scoring, high priced select auction foals, or highly thought of as one of the best at their foal inspection?

Is it all hype, or any actual statistics to show a correlation?

To those that have seen some of the foals. You have only seen the foals that people let you see who in the world if they have any idea, would trot out the bad foals? In every country if you know people you hear gossip about studs but you never see the bad progeny. They get knocked on the head (or multiple heads) or their tendons cut to mask club feet.

Le Champ Ask was a stallion that Blu Hors had … did they do the right thing and pull him because he was infertile? Or should they have kept taking the money and pretend that all is ok? Really silly statement of course they did the right thing.

If a stallion owner pulls a stallion in its effectively 1st season with foals on the ground … really I have respect for them and if an article comes out with a clarification of conformation issues and they don’t get it retracted to me it is perfectly obvious that there was a serious problem. Also while not good for any one that bred a foal with no conformation issues it doesn’t mean a filly or a colt wouldn’t bred it on so buyer beware.

I really have respect for Blu Hors they have pulled to my knowledge 2 stallions instead of keeping at least one that didn’t shot blanks & continue the cycle of inferior foals. They have lost $$$ from both of these stallions and it has hurt their reputation. BUT They can be proud of what is produced instead of knowing that those in the know whisper behind their backs.

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;4627386]
For all of the European record keeping, scoring, etc, what I would really like to see is:

What % of highly thought of foals over the past 20 years have become successful FEI dressage horses?

What % of the top 500? dressage horses in the world were high scoring, high priced select auction foals, or highly thought of as one of the best at their foal inspection?

Is it all hype, or any actual statistics to show a correlation?[/QUOTE]

I believe I read a publication that stated the statistical figure of horses reaching their helm in sport is 0.45%

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;4627386]
For all of the European record keeping, scoring, etc, what I would really like to see is:

What % of highly thought of foals over the past 20 years have become successful FEI dressage horses?

What % of the top 500? dressage horses in the world were high scoring, high priced select auction foals, or highly thought of as one of the best at their foal inspection?

Is it all hype, or any actual statistics to show a correlation?[/QUOTE]
I’ll bet that there isn’t any statistical data confirming that there is a positive correlation between scoring high or selling for top price at auction for a foal and becoming successful FEI sport horses.
It seems obvious that such a statistic would show a negative correlation, therefor nobody have interest to fund such a study.
If it wasn’t the case, the organizations in charge of the auctions would have funded this simple study and would advertise heavily this correlation as it will tend to increase the selling prices and their profits.
IMHO it’s all marketing hype.
A foal future is impossible to read, unless you have a cristal ball:D

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;4627386]
For all of the European record keeping, scoring, etc, what I would really like to see is:

What % of highly thought of foals over the past 20 years have become successful FEI dressage horses?

What % of the top 500? dressage horses in the world were high scoring, high priced select auction foals, or highly thought of as one of the best at their foal inspection?

Is it all hype, or any actual statistics to show a correlation?[/QUOTE]

I imagine it’s no different from the correlation between Thoroughbred yearling sales prices and racing success.

Actually I think offering a free breeding to the affected breeders isn’t so far off base. I’m not quite sure but somehow I think the stallion owner needs to consider the consequences before throwing out such a publication. In today’s economy having no foal is better than having a ‘substandard’ foal really.

>>>>>>>>>>Good for Blue Hors for not continuing to breed a stallion that they or the Dansk Warmblood thought was not contributing to the improvement of the modern sporthorse.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Where did they say that? Or is this an interpretation?

All we “know” is that the stallion didn’t grow as much as they expected and perhaps the foals were not going to be as big as they had hoped.

We have to keep in mind that the stud is breeding for the international buyer. Foals that many of us would be delighted to own may not fit the WOW factor that their buyer may be looking for.

In sum, we just don’t know and we’re putting the pieces together.

I think this thread is going to make many MO wary of using a junior stallion.

Sally

[QUOTE=Oakstable;4627684
I think this thread is going to make many MO wary of using a junior stallion.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and anyone that breeds to a Blue Hors freshman sire from here on out is CRAZY. Who in their right mind would want to be thrown under the bus like that?

JMHO, but I think THIS statement has more to do with the reason that Doolittle was pulled more than anything. With a breeder/stallion station that stands some top stallions, 130 mares to a stallion that should have generated numbers more in line with the above, he’s not making the kind of income that they may have expected. They can “cull” him and turn a bad situation into a good one. Mare owners will think WOW!! If they’re willing to remove a stallion like this from their roster, their other stallions must be absolutely phenomenal!! Holy Smokes!!! Sorry, I think it was probably just a phenomenal marketing move for them. Gets them good press - look at this thread alone. How many of you went to their website? And how many of you are taking a look at the other stallions they are standing? I think it was a brilliant move on their part. Absolutely brilliant. So they sacrificed the breeding career of one of their stallions - so what? They just heightened awareness to all of their other stallions and their facility. And, I hate to say it but I’d take Doolittle in a heartbeat if they’re throwing him away :D!

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;4627809]
With a breeder/stallion station that stands some top stallions, 130 mares to a stallion that should have generated numbers more in line with the above, he’s not making the kind of income that they may have expected.[/QUOTE]

Yes, from conversations with others familiar with the Blue Hors business philosophy, I have gathered that they have high expectations for their stallions regarding income. If the stallion doesn’t attract the mare owners, they cull him from the roster. It can be very tough for a young stallion to attract large numbers of breedings, esp. if he is not super fancy, not black, and is a bit on the small side. And the more stallions they add to their roster, the harder the competition for breedings - esp. in a slow economy.

[QUOTE=DownYonder;4627840]
not black[/QUOTE]

The “color breeding” is true, but always amazes me.

Exactly

Actually, I find it a bit odd/amusing that they scuttled Doolittle and keep Hotline. In my experience Hotline is not stamping his offspring. They seem to run the gamut and need a particular sort of mare. I like my coming 2 year old by Hotline, but he was not a foal to sell himself quickly and I think it will take being under saddle for him to show himself for what he is. That seems to be the case with many of them. So, I find it very interesting that they have kept Hotline in the roster, while dumping Doolittle for what sound like similar traits that are being passed.

Kathy, I disagree.

As mare owners, we take the risk of investing in a stallion. We have to sell the resulting foal. We expect the SO to respect our investment. We’re stock holders.

Sure, they got publicity. Much of it strongly negative.

Will mare owners want to jump on their next bandwagon? Don’t think so.

There was no damage control. It’s human nature to watch a wreck along the side of the road.

Their lack of damage control allowed people to speculate on the WORST of conformation defects.

Stallions are bought and sold within Europe all day long, and a number are sold to the US. Do we speculate that the stallion was sold from a stallion station because he was throwing defects?

A lot of people in this thread now think Doolittle was throwing something other than a less typey, smaller foal that might be the truth of his FIRST foal crop.

As a mare owner/stock holder, I would not be investing in Blue Hors’s stallion roster. Way too many other choices and too date, I’ve invested in stallions standing in NA who understand the sensitivities of the NA market. And who avoid this kind of PR blunder.

[QUOTE=Oakstable;4627905]

As mare owners, we take the risk of investing in a stallion. We have to sell the resulting foal. We expect the SO to respect our investment. We’re stock holders. [/QUOTE]

In that particular stallion. If the stock “fails”, so do you. But it doesn’t prevent you from looking at another “stock”.

Sure, they got publicity. Much of it strongly negative.

Just on the one particular stallion. Look at the “spin” and “speculation” involved! the negative publicity is focused on ONE stallion. However, the farm is receiving “accolades” for their foresight in removing something that may or may not be a “blight”. And, negative publicity is ALWAYS better than no publicity at all. It gets them noticed!

Will mare owners want to jump on their next bandwagon? Don’t think so.

<smile> Mare owners are a fickle lot. I have no doubt they’ll jump on the next hot item. It’s just the nature of the beast!

There was no damage control. It’s human nature to watch a wreck along the side of the road.

Comparatively small numbers for Germany. And, German breeders have a much more practical view on breeding. Less emotion involved.

Their lack of damage control allowed people to speculate on the WORST of conformation defects.

You’re looking at it solely from the perspective of the one stallion. I step back and look at it from the viewpoint of the entire breeding farm. People will pat them on the back for removing a horse that they perceive as “bad”. I suspect it is much more of a marketing decision than that there is truly anything horrific about the offspring. One would have probably heard something more if the foals were truly conformational freaks.

A lot of people in this thread now think Doolittle was throwing something other than a less typey, smaller foal that might be the truth of his FIRST foal crop.

As many breeders here have pointed out, there are many stallions that throw less than typey foals that go on to be great performance horses. And, it’s strictly speculation as to what exactly is wrong with the first foal crop. I’ve yet to hear anyone say what exactly it is that is conformationally flawed.

As a mare owner/stock holder, I would not be investing in Blue Hors’s stallion roster. Way too many other choices and too date, I’ve invested in stallions standing in NA who understand the sensitivities of the NA market. And who avoid this kind of PR blunder.

As a stallion owner and one that is very much invested in the North American market, I tend to choose only stallions that are standing in North America. Support the market that I have a vested interest in so to speak. But, having done marketing and advertising for some top corporations, I am also very well aware of the “spin” that can be put on things in order to push that marketing envelope.

So, a breeder that did indeed breed a mare to Doolittle calls up with a WHAT??? My foal is subpar?? Stallion owner merely says, no, no…your’s is one that is quite nice. We were referring to some of the “other” foals.

Nope. From my perspective, I see it as quite a smart marketing move. Stallion wasn’t getting the breedings anticipated. Not enough foals to create a real “buzz”. Still sufficient money generated that there was no real loss on the stallion. Easy to simply remove the stallion from the roster and use him as a “promotion” for their superior “culling”. Even if he is indeed gelded, he’ll probably sell for good money to a rider. They created a real “buzz” for their other stallions, got people that normally probably wouldn’t have taken a second look at their other stallions to flock to their website and take another look at what exactly they have! Someone should do a poll on how many people that looked at this thread went to their website and then on to their North American affiliates! I’m betting just about every single person that checked into this thread will have done so. :smiley: Yeah…brilliant marketing move. And again, as I stated previously, I’d take the boy in a heartbeat <grin>. I’d be willing to take a “chance” on him <lol>.

Ok to have divergent opinions on how smart this was or how dumb.

I cannot imagine a SO in NA doing something similar without suffering serious consequences.

[QUOTE=Oakstable;4627976]
Ok to have divergent opinions on how smart this was or how dumb.

I cannot imagine a SO in NA doing something similar without suffering serious consequences.[/QUOTE]

<grin>…I don’t think we actually have opposite opinions. Just dealing with COMPLETELY different markets. A stallion owner in North America would be THRILLED to get 130 breedings over the LIFE of the stallion <lol>. So, totally different markets and marketing. Gotta know your market! :wink: