You are probably thinking of the Leatherdale’s Sandro Hit son, Sir Savoy, who had to be euthanized before he had done any performance test. Hannover very quickly made an exception of its rules in that case so that his foals could be registered.
I doubt they will make an exception for Sir D II, because he is not Hanoverian branded. I am guessing he will be re-presented at some point, maybe after those first foals hit the ground and they can evaluate what he is throwing.
[QUOTE=Kareen;4624301]
It’s amazing to me that breeders in the US will go through the hazzle of importing frozen from stallions in Germany when you have Don Principe, Royal Prince and many others right - well not at your doorstep - but at least on your continent. I do still see the point in trying to widen your marebase or breeding a filly in Europe to later add to your breeding programme but as far as stallions go I think you’re very well equiped and have excellent choices at home. But then yes there might not be a huge name attached to them but they have one thing so gloriously in their favor: They’re there to meet, observe in training, watch in competition, follow track about their progeny etc.etc.[/QUOTE]
The reason breeders here use imported frozen from the “hot” stallions in Europe is for the same reasons breeders there use those stallions. The offspring of those stallions either sell quickly as foals for good money - usually because they are big, fancy movers (speaking dressage horses, here) - or they are very much in demand by professionals to take to the top of sport. We don’t have a plethora of stallions here who have a proven record of producing “big, fancy movers” (as in international quality), nor do we have very many who have produced offspring that have gone to the top of sport.
I had another thread going last week about “High Performance stallions who had sired High Performance stallion sons” and a couple of people tried to take me to task for insinuating that high performance horses produce high performance horses. Seems like breeders are damned if they do try to breed to proven performance horses, and damned if they don’t. :lol:
In light of their public announcement Blue Hors will graciously offer a free stud fee to a stallion of their choice to all mare owners that have used Doolittle…
cough splutter cough…
I believe Dr. Doolittle is a different horse: http://www.a-1performancesires.com/Hanoverian/drdoolittle.htm
This thread is about Blue Hors Doolittle. I hope Dr. Doolittle & his owners don’t suffer too much fallout over this.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;4624416]
The reason breeders here use imported frozen from the “hot” stallions in Europe is for the same reasons breeders there use those stallions. The offspring of those stallions either sell quickly as foals for good money - usually because they are big, fancy movers (speaking dressage horses, here) - or they are very much in demand by professionals to take to the top of sport. We don’t have a plethora of stallions here who have a proven record of producing “big, fancy movers” (as in international quality), nor do we have very many who have produced offspring that have gone to the top of sport.
I had another thread going last week about “High Performance stallions who had sired High Performance stallion sons” and a couple of people tried to take me to task for insinuating that high performance horses produce high performance horses. Seems like breeders are damned if they do try to breed to proven performance horses, and damned if they don’t. :lol:[/QUOTE]
Yes, Down Yonder, I am always admiring of your pluck and tenacity for attempting some of these threads! Despite the unintended direction some of these posts go, I think it is all “grist for the mill”, folks will glean what they will, but I usually find something worthwhile, as others must, or they wouldn’t tune in here. This thread, for example, has given me a lot to think about, and not just questions about Doolittle. I think anybody, in any profession, must continually challenge themselves in their decision-making process, and continually ask “why am I making this decision/choice”? Am I turning out the kind of horses I set out to create?, etc. I think it is important for a breeder to be able to verbalize what it is that went into any breeding decision, and what the positive/negative elements are of that decision are once that horse is on the ground. Most everyone knows that the final assessment will likely be several years down the road…Obviously, people choose a new, exciting, but unproven stallion with the hope/gamble that they will have a foal product somewhat ahead of the curve, and look to the pedigree for assurances. We all know that it is a gamble to do that, but the risk seems less when the pedigree is well-known.
Blu Hors hasn’t really clarified this particular breeding decision for the mare owners who used Doolittle. I think it will be interesting when/if they do, because it will help inform mare owners just what Blu Hors means by “the best”, ( or whatever phrase it was they used). In other words, it will define their goals more clearly to the outside world.
The “best” or most “excellent” as an answer just doesn’t cut it in real life, because every horse has strengths and weaknesses. I appreciate it more when a SO helps to spell out their stallion(s) strengths and weaknesses in DETAIL.
Was any Doolittle semen sold and exported to the US?
Who carried it? Anyone?
Well said fannie mae (all of it).
We don’t know what was disappointing. Type? Like just more Don Schufro type?
[QUOTE=L&L;4624424]
In light of their public announcement Blue Hors will graciously offer a free stud fee to a stallion of their choice to all mare owners that have used Doolittle…
cough splutter cough…[/QUOTE]
Wow 
[QUOTE=L&L;4624424]
In light of their public announcement Blue Hors will graciously offer a free stud fee to a stallion of their choice to all mare owners that have used Doolittle…
cough splutter cough…[/QUOTE]
Well that’s nice. Certainly doesn’t “fix” the situation for the mare owner, but at least it reduces the sting a little bit. :yes:
[QUOTE=Oakstable;4625587]
We don’t know what was disappointing. Type? Like just more Don Schufro type?[/QUOTE]
I wrote and asked. I think it would be wrong to post the letter but the gist of it was that not enough of the babies are up to the standard they were looking for, they did state some were very nice. Also the stud is small and did not grow like they hoped and they are worried about the foals also. What is the height for mares for registration?
It could be they waited so long so see how the babies were turning out, to give them a bit of a chance.
I liked the economics discussion better but…
I have one question from those that have been in the business for awhile. If a stallion is taken off the roster quietly, with no public statements and not sold or gelded, doesn’t everyone still know/suspect there was a problem?
The only way to protect the stallions reputation would be to sell him and I am sure no one here is suggesting that if they do not produce well.
So how do you retire a stallion and not affect the foal owners?
I imagine it would only be people not in the business and that didn’t do any research that would not know about the stallion if it was less public, is it being suggested that it is up to the foal owners to tell such people as they might not to make a sale?
I don’t think people necessarily suspect a problem if a stallion is sold. Many stallions get sold and sometimes it is solely because the owner received a very good offer.
The question remains what benefit they saw in their announcement for anybody. If the foalcrop had been so alarmingly faulty they feel like permanently preventing him from breeding it would have been very easy to ‘create facts’ by gelding him… Enough said, I’m glad to hear they are giving out a free breeding to the affected mare owners. Sounds like the right thing to do.
So Doolittle is smaller than they expected and they think he might throw smaller. Well, there are plenty of large tanky mares that need to be downsized.
With Doolittle’s pedigree, you might get some old fashioned babies but would be super performance horses, just not typey foals for quick sales.
Producing "well’ is subjective.
No one has said there were serious conformation problems, but people read into it.
Isn’t this the same stud that sold Soprano?
Was there a big hoo ha when that happened?
[QUOTE=stoicfish;4625843]
…I have one question from those that have been in the business for awhile. If a stallion is taken off the roster quietly, with no public statements and not sold or gelded, doesn’t everyone still know/suspect there was a problem?
The only way to protect the stallions reputation would be to sell him and I am sure no one here is suggesting that if they do not produce well.
So how do you retire a stallion and not affect the foal owners?
I imagine it would only be people not in the business and that didn’t do any research that would not know about the stallion if it was less public, is it being suggested that it is up to the foal owners to tell such people as they might not to make a sale?[/QUOTE]
what you describe (taken off the roster quietly, with no public statements and not sold or gelded, doesn’t everyone still know/suspect there was a problem?) happens all the time overhere - we have a lot of big stallion studs nearby and of course people talk - big times.
fact is:
“silent” retirement doesn’t help but spurs speculation extacly the way it does here in this post. from reasonable speculation to simply rediculous.
what i learn form that is a double sided swort:
a) stallion owners work for their own pocket first.
honesty is hard to find, if any (as they can only loose - look what has beensaid about blue hors only in this post…).
risk and responsibility is always left for the breeder and the breeder himself.
b) stallion owners are only humans, too.
they tend to not know or foresee everything, either.
i have seen stallions being gelded and sold to the US (supposedly as hunters, that seems to have become a fashionable thing to do) and breeders left with anger about their two foal crops being born.
my favourite prominent example of a stallion being sold couple of years ago is one where the stallion was said to have back issues and had become unridable. (didn’t prevent him from moving to the states, anyway)
his foals have later on turned out to become well demanded riding horses since people discovered they were even double talented (great dressage horses despite descending from pure jumper lines) and greatly ridable.
that stallion owner hopefully still bites himself for having done the wrong thing to the right stallion…
what have i learned from all of this?
a) never trust anybody but your own knowledge, experience and conclusions.
b) stay away from stallion stations who are known to be fast sellers.
c) preference for elder proven stallions is a very reasonable thing
d) if you do after all decide to go for a young stallion you better knwo what you are doing with respect to various things:
if you can’t do it stay away from young stallions or accept the fact that breeding simply is a risky thing to do and it becomes even riskier the younger the stallion is.
What is the source for the free breeding? I don’t see anything on their web site.
I think the source of the information we have been reacting to should publish an amplification.
That’s a very good list of precautions from Fannie Mae.
Fannie Mae - as always, the voice of reason!!
There are no free breedings from Blue Hors - that was a statement made tongue in cheek by another poster. But it goes to show you how easy it is to start rumors on these boards…
Quite honestly, after thinking about this a great deal, I have decided it was the height of irresponsibility for the OP to phrase the title of this thread the way she did. And also for Eurodressage to make the comment about “conformation problems”.
Until Blue Hors comes out and publically confirms such “conformation problems”, I am going to continue to wonder if the foals are simply not very typey, maybe small, and probably not big movers. It is probably reason enough to take a stallion off your roster when you expect foals to sell quickly, but I am extremely disapointed in Blue Hors’ handling of this matter. And I REALLY object to the OP’s choice of words in titling this thread, and to Eurodressage’s “journalistic interpretation” of the Blue Hors decision.
DY, I agree with ytou 100%.
Blue Hors should have gotten out in front of the rumor mill.
Hopefully Eurodressage and the OP will be more careful in statements that impact other people’s investments.
Interestingly, if this were to be the case, this may be exactly the type of horse in demand by the recreational rider demographic (of which I am proud to say I belong). If temperament and character are good, sign me up!
The ammie market in NA likes a smaller horse with movement that can be sat, and a nice brain.
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