Blue Hors drops Doolittle for poor foals

[vineyridge]

This whole discussion is fascinating.

I’ve been reading a book by Bertrand Russell called Freedom and Organization, 1814 to 1914. It was written in 1934 and is his discussion of the political and economic theories prevalent in that time, along with a good bit of history and philosophical critique. One point that he believed was well established from economic history is that free and unfettered competition (no government regulation) invariably leads to monopoly. This is because businesses that are successful enough to generate (or have available from other sources) cash will either buy out, out market using their cash, or deliberately engage in tactics to destroy their competition. This, he believed, was completely proved over and over again from the results of the past when the profit motive was the driver and there were no rules of the road to keep the players in check.

Why do people here look at Team Nijhof and VDL and Blu Hors and PS as the cream of the cream private stallion stations? It’s because of the advertising, the support of their stallions and foals in competition and sales, and the aura of extreme quality that they project. Whether or not their stallions really are “the best”, every breeding that they get based on that aura is one that might have gone to a small breeder with an equally good stallion. And so the small breeder has less money to invest in imports and in promotion and in supporting their stallions. Because of that they fall farther and farther behind and eventually could well be driven out of business. Every stallion station that disappears, whether or not through the intentional acts of the big guys, reduces consumer choice farther until monopoly/oligopoly inevitably appears and controls the market with products that are not necessarily inventive or “the best”, but are the most profitable and the best promoted. And are in the barns of the big guys, however they get there.

[Arathita]

Very excellent post vineyridge. I am in agreement. I believe that many stallions would do so well if they had such great riders and promoters.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=ahf;4622859]
I’ve known Kareen from these boards for…iDK…8 years? More? She is the farthest thing from a whiner I have ever met. You are making this personal, and that’s not kosher. [/QUOTE]

Agreed. And what’s more, she’s one of the handful of rational people who post on these boards with useful and intelligent information – one most are better off listening to than criticizing…

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

The biggest loss in losing the family farmer breeder to the big names is that the small breeder with generations of work thought more of a long time program development. What we see now are the big names just using the horses to make a fast buck, without regard for the future of the RIDING horse. Just breed a gazillion of those quick to sell auction trotters.

[Kareen]

Glad to hear there are many who understand what I was trying to say and can look through the European bluntness. I never said there were no other factors than competition from ‘new age’ stations involved in more traditional stations dropping out. But it is increasingly difficult to get breedings when you have to have to spend a multimillion Euro budget on advertising alone.
The sustainability problem in my opinion has also a lot to do with the current breed value calculations (here in Germany it’s called ZWS). There is a massive devaluation of proven producers going on and young stallions are getting a lot of premature ‘browny points’ based on a few singled out events such as the BC or Young Horse WC which have little to do with their true breed value.
I wrote a paper nearly two years ago to the Hanoverian Verband asking them to think of ways to establish something like a soundness index within the breed. I feel such thing would be desperately needed these days especially with the understanding (since 2001 it has become a knowledge supported with a ton of data) that about 90% of our buyers take no interest in participating at shows under saddle but are into horses for purely recreational or social reasons.
Nobody wants to produce a horse that won’t last or even worse will not grow up to be ridden, driven or whatever else purpose it was intended for. Looking at x-rays is all well but it seems by far not enough. I want to see a soundness index much similar to the dressage or jumping index where I can clearly see how many offspring by sire x or out of dam y did last and how long.
This could lead to a reviving effect of lines or stallions which are deemed valuable yet produce a more longterm and longlasting result not necessarily the pretty auction type trotter Fairview cited. If we look at today’s most popular dressage horses of the last 10 years none of them fall into the category that would have fetched or did fetch a top sale price at the foal auctions. They are mostly either ‘bred unmodern’ (Salinero), late bloomers, difficult (Elvis, Satchmo…) or ‘not typey’ (Gigolo…) and late bloomers (Don Schufro) on top…
I believe more and more buyers will develop an idea of what they should look for. Not sure how it is in N.A. but here there is a dramatic increase in operations who cater to the clientele Ypsos has revealed as being the most important: The recreational horse person. Recreational doesn’t necessarily mean without ambition or without sense for quality. But the emphasis will shift a lot in the coming 20 years when more and more people speak out what they really want and need in a horse. This is a fascinating trend and I’m curious where it’ll go. I am still concerned about the long-term goal vs. quick profit situation. For my farm I have begun to chose matings that are purposefully free of trendsetter stallions so I can have fillies to keep for the breeding shed. It has become difficult to find a ‘WDRF-free’ dressage horse these days so one has to homeproduce something that can still be bred to the hot ones without getting way too narrow in the genetics. Sorry no hijacking intended.

[Marydell]

I have read this thread with a great deal of interest, being both a breeder with a medium size broodmare band (6 to 10)and a stallion owner. I have horses both here in the USA and in Germany.

IMHO-I think saying that a stallion is pulled from the breeding shed publically as was done with Doolittle is a bit like “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”.
If a stallion does not live up to expectations, it IS a responsible thing to remove him from the breeding roster. No public explanation is nessesary. Out of 100+ foals, there are bound to be exceptions to the “conformation” concern, after all, there is the mare to consider as well. These individuals now have a undeserved stigma attached to them becasue of this public announcement.

If we as breeders can not evaluate the stallion’s offspring for ourselves- not relying on the SO owner’s input, or that of a BB, then we should not be breeding. Of course ,it is nice to have those opinions, but in the end, we make that final decision, not an outside person.
For example, I have one mare here, she would have been the 5th generation of SPS(EM) mares in her line. She was denied by .2 points. Yet her offspring are the best produced on the farm. What if I had taken her and sold her because of someone else’s opinion? I would have lost a valuable broodmare. I trusted in her pedigree and my eye.
Sandro Hit was mentioned previously. He himself is not an upper level competiton horse. He has serious conformation issues. His offspring, when SH is put to an older style mare with bone, good feet and good engine, are better, but not true upper level horses of national/ international ability. However, the third generation( again going back to an older style mare), ( also known as the F2 when using TB blood on WB)which are just now getting to the small tour, are exciting. This is what we are loosing by having the smaller breeding, not just stallion, stations disappear.

Kareen is a knowledgable breeder with a long history of first hand experience, both hands on and observation. Her comments are made from a conclusion drawn by what is actually happening in Europe today.
It is a general type of comment when she remarks on the “big money” stations not a jealous one in the least.
You can take a look at American stallion stations as well as the Europen ones. There are fantastic stallions here but are not used very much. Stallions with top of sport competition careers, succesful offspring, great customer service from the owners, but get less than 10 mares a year. But look at the bigger stations and their stallions “in general” get 50 to 100 mares each. These stallions are not competed, their offspring are succesful in the YH , in hand and USEF classes, but not rising to the top in FEI. Of course there are the one or two exceptional offspring, but less than 1% of the total offspring. It is the larger $$$ stations with the advertising and registry presence that gets the breedings. Same in Europe.
I would have never thought that Vorwerk or Siefert would close or be sold within my lifetime. They were medium to large SUCESSFUL stallion statioins, not backyard endevours. They stood stallions that competed to upper levels that in turn produced numerous upper level offspring.

I first started traveling to breed courses, licensings, MPT in Germany a decade ago. After three years of watching what was being rewarded, I said to my husband (and anyone who asked my opinion) that within 10 to 12 years, you would be hard pressed to find breeders trying to breed a Grand Prix horse. That is exceptionaly true today. And I think that is also a part of what Kareen and others have tried to say in this thread.

Others in this thread have pointed out that the free market has directed this change. I agree. Breeders choose the “hot, fashionable” stallions for quick sales of foals and Young riding horses.
Yes, many young members of generational breeding families are opting out. They can’t compete with the money of the larger stations and break even, yet alone make any money for the huge amount of work involved. But with this loss, we loose the ability to breed in generations for the improvement of the breed. We loose immesurable expertise to see the future through more than the immeadiate foal crop.

Yes, we all have to pay our bills. Selling a foal/YH from a “fashionable” stallion helps to do that. But I beleive we are destroying the ablility to think/breed in generations for the future. We are loosing that upper level talent because they are not usually the “pretty” ones. In general, breeders do not have “staff” to start young horses so that is another incentive to sell as foals, not plan on breeding the upper level prospect.
With all the “modern” stallions out there, the pretty Mare show winners, remember, we still need the substatial horses to cross with them to keep the vigor and athletic talent for the future.

[siegi_b]

As much as we’re getting off the original subject, I do think we now have a discussion that is very interesting…

Kareen stated “I believe more and more buyers will develop an idea of what they should look for. Not sure how it is in N.A. but here there is a dramatic increase in operations who cater to the clientele Ypsos has revealed as being the most important: The recreational horse person. Recreational doesn’t necessarily mean without ambition or without sense for quality. But the emphasis will shift a lot in the coming 20 years when more and more people speak out what they really want and need in a horse. This is a fascinating trend and I’m curious where it’ll go.”

I think this is very much the way it is in the US these days… With the baby boomers in their 50’s now, we have a large section of the population that is looking for a horse that will let them do some shows and be competitive, and still be sane enough to go on trail rides and maybe carry a grand-kid around occasionally.

So yes, the market in the US is changing as well…

[not_again]

Having been putting one foot in from of the other for 40 plus years in horse breeding, this discussion and all the breeders make it sound like the industry is maturing. Breeders should produce sound rideable horses with balance and athleticism. Otherwise, why go out the the barn in the morning?

We have a new youngster going under saddle who is a dream come true. Popular bloodlines? No. Arab head? No. Flinging legs at the trot? No. Just 40 years of trying to put together the right ingredients in the genetic recipe.

It is just being responsible to cull a less than stellar producer, whether you are Blue horse or one horse.

[Iron_Horse_Farm]

[QUOTE=not again;4623693]
It is just being responsible to cull a less than stellar producer, whether you are Blue horse or one horse.;)[/QUOTE]

In 8 pages I don’t think that it was ever mentioned that inferior horses shouldn’t be culled. What IS being called into question here is the WAY that it was done…pubicly and with little or no regard for the mare owners that paid them well or the horses produced that are now stigmatized by a vague “conformational issue”. :no:

[Oakstable]

Excellent point, Holly.

Sometimes there is a deficit of “reading for comprehension” in these forums.

Blu Hors was ham fisted in its handling of the announcement.

[DownYonder]

Once again, I will point to the actual quote from Blue Hors that started this firestorm:

“Doolittle’s foals were in general not of the quality we had hoped for and we have a big stallion collection at Blue Hors and only want the best of the best. This is in the interest of the breeders and stallion stations themselves has to pick the stallions and keep the standard at a high level.”

“Not of the quality we had hoped for” could range for anything from type issues, to movement issues, to the dreaded ‘conformation issues’.

However, I am rather struck by the fact that the Blue Hors quote said NOTHING about “conformation problems”. Since THAT blurb appears to have been added by Eurodressage, it makes me wonder if Blue Hors actually used the phrase “conformation problems” in its conversation with Eurodressage. Or did they say something like, “Well, they have big heads.” Or “they are long in the back”. Or “they have short front legs”. While undesirable if you are trying to sell foals quickly, NONE of these issues could be considered “conformation problems” worthy of damning an entire foal crop.

Like others, I have no problems with Blue Hors dropping the stallion from their roster if they feel it is warranted. What I DO object to is the way they threw all those mare owners under the bus that now have Doolittle foals they are trying to sell. Who in their right mind is going to even consider one of those foals now that they have been so publicly stigmatized?

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Marydell;4623486]

Sandro Hit was mentioned previously. He himself is not an upper level competiton horse. He has serious conformation issues. [/QUOTE]

Maryanna, I have a lot of respect for what you have done with your stallion and your breeding program. However, I have to comment on the above statement.

While Sandro Hit is not perfect (what horse is?), I doubt he would have been approved by every major European warmblood registry if he had “serious conformation issues”.

I do however agree with your comments about losing the generational breeders. That is a sad trend that seems to be increasing as children and grandchildren of the old time breeders in Germany and Holland chose other professions and hobbies. Seeing Harli Seifert and Gudula Vorwerk sell out was heartbreaking.

[ahf]

I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this thread this weekend – and why I am so horrified by what Blu Hors did. And I think for me it comes down to MY interpretation of integrity. I think the almighty kroner, not betterment of the breed, is the primary thread that makes up the Blu Hors fabric.

Quite honestly, if Pape, or the late George Vowerk had done the same thing…I would be much more inclined to take the statement at face value. But….I am cynical enough to believe that in the situation being discussed, “quality issues” translates into “his offspring do not change the world, and bring high auction prices, and are not precocious. So, regardless of any other great attributes may have, that’s what we at Blue Hors want…so under the bus he goes.” A stallion station can do the right thing, or they can do the expedient thing. Expedience trumped, mare owners have been hurt.

Just as riding horses are developed, some stallions need to be developed too. I’m not against culling. And no one that was shocked by the Blu Hors action has said they were against culling either. What I’m against is screwing over your mare owners because the stallion is not producing the TB equivalent of an early two-year-old – and that’s what I think is happening. Breeding primarily for precocity gets you in trouble down the road every time.

[stoicfish]

I personally have less faith in the public choice concerning horses. Many of them are very young or have not been around horses very long. They are basing their decisions on visibility. I share Karreen concerns but I am not sure how to get around the issue, as I support a free market.
Culture is a huge factor in what people buy, and maybe if people can educate their buyers the consumer will value horses from a knowledgeable source (I like Dr. Christmann and tend to listen). I see this value in some of the local breeders around me also.
But the Verbands/breeders are going to have to not jump on the “bandwagon” but stick to their guns about quality. Instead of getting excited about having bred to a stallion de jour, people can be proud that breeders with a bazillion years of experience gave approval to the stallion and/or the cross. I don’t see this the majority of the time now, however.

As far as the original post, I see Blue’s actions as being their choice as they will deal with the consequences. The people that are customers can judge how they feel about their decision in how they spend their money. I bet this will not hurt them too much.
However, if a state run farm did this I would be upset as I would assume they have everyone’s best interest at heart and the arguments about limiting the foal crop and making sure people understand the risks makes more sense. I never trust people’s motives when they are trying to make money, it may be their product is good and what I need but you cannot trust them to make that decision for you.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=ahf;4623878]
But….I am cynical enough to believe that in the situation being discussed, “quality issues” translates into “his offspring do not change the world, and bring high auction prices, and are not precocious. So, regardless of any other great attributes may have, that’s what we at Blue Hors want…so under the bus he goes.” A stallion station can do the right thing, or they can do the expedient thing. Expedience trumped, mare owners have been hurt.[/QUOTE]

Well said, Kate.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;4623930]
But the Verbands/breeders are going to have to not jump on the “bandwagon” but stick to their guns about quality. Instead of getting excited about having bred to a stallion de jour [/QUOTE]

The problem is also that the registries are pushing this “pro-early marketing” scheme. The hype around these young unproven stallions IS big advertising for the verband. THEY are the ones that can fix this by taking responsibility, and returing to a pre-early 1980s goal of riding horses, not just increasing market share.

[Coppers_mom]

I think Blue Hors needs to maybe put out a statement to clear things up because their words, “not the quality we’d hoped for” and eurodressage’s words “conformational defects” are two very different things.

I agree with those that are frustrated with the “right now” breeders who only consider stallions who sell fast and bring lots of money because pappa is big and pretty. It’s not how you make better horses in the long run, and I think it’s going to make it increasingly hard to find any kind of outcross.

[alexandra]

I just stumbled over this thread as I saw so many posts in one thread.

I have to agree to those who think they or better the breeders who used Doolittle are a bit cheated now. If they pull a stallion of their rooster and due to the fact they find it not satisfactory what he produces geld him. Chapeau for such a decision, but having spread all over the world (who knows if this internet magazine quotes them correctly by the way ?) puts a lot of breeders into trouble.
The 130 foals that are already born and the ??? that will be born in 2010. I do not think this was a wise decision. Not the culling of a stallion in its best meaning, but the giving the reason for it. So far we have no clue if the reason is too many conformational issues, not good enough quality in Blu Horse’s eyes or what ever. But it sure makes at least 200 breeders or buyers look bad. Anyways - damage is done. No idea how this is discussed in Denmark (Liiiiiinda can you check and read ?), but in Germany I have not yet heard about it, maybe due to the fact that this satllion is not thaaaaat known on our side of the border…

I do not agree that th SO has to be held responsible to llow only a certain number of breedings. That is really one of those things that I can see coming from the US: Not taking responsiblitiy for own decisions, but finding someone else to “blame”. No mare owner was forced to use him. They just did so thinking maybe of big money for the first foal crop. Same with all those breeders now whining because the used on their Hanoverian mares Sir Donnerhall II. Or a few years back this other stallion who was injured or dead and could not finish his test at all and the mare owners would not have gotten any brand if it would have been taken strictly accoding to the H breeding rules. Just do not remember then name of the stallion. But I think one from station Meyer ?

Coming to the issue of the bigger breeding operations. I know a very knowledgable stallion owner of a small operation. He is struggling a lot because these big stations often using money from other operations can spend much more money on investments and nevertheless I think he is a veryvery knowledgable person and I have valued him a lot when we were talking in the past (plus he is very funny ).
This starts in the shopping price for stallions (Who can compete with the Leatherdales or Blu Horse, PS ?), than it goes to promoting the stallions (one needs a good rider, needs to put the stallion out to show), advertising (in the press and on the internet), than they are able to by the equipment and pay the fees for a european stallion station you can make the list longer and longer. In former times this was no the big issue as breeders from the area stuck to “their” station. But now breeders can get semen from all over germany even europe and they buy that kind of thing.

Other examples for stud farms with money from elsewhere:

Tannenhof - Mr. Plönzke owns a big IT Consulting Company
Gestüt Famos - hope I am right - but a big bread making company
Stud Sprehe - the produce and sell convinience food products and chicken
Kempkehof - I also may be mistaken but I think the owner either inherited a bigger amount of money or the money came from a sale of a company and comes from a family who ran a huge transportation company (same area as Fedex or such)
Harli Seifert financed with money from the outside but was also a very good horse person (was ? is !)

The bigger name studs that originate like Kareen from a long family history are on top of my head:
Klosterhof Medingen
Böckmann
Gestüt Vorwerk - Gone now
both Kathmann studs
Klatte
Birkhof

And I see a huge difference coming to horse breeding aswell. More and more breeders like myself who breed and sell foals. This means our breeding decisions are mosty not out of the box. And often these kind of breeders sell their stock for less than production costs as for them it is hobby hence the market kicks out the others who have to live from their horse businesses.

The breeders who used to be able to have the horses together with their cattle and were able to raise and start them themselves are getting more and more rareas they can not compete with these prices. And I see a big issue here as I fear that the development of more and more recreational riders having a desire for quality horses with great brains (and not soo much movement that they can not sit) against those horses bred by the bigname stallions.
(Honestly it is often very funny to watch people from the US with no imagination testriding at the auctions who want to buy one of these warmbloods and are not even able to sit the trots of the average horse in the collections…) Where are we going to find those kind of horses in the future ? The breeders who can “afford” to wait until their products are of riding age get more and more rare. I myself am struggling in my decisions in finding a stallion whose offspring I can sell (horses that already bloom as foals) and never the less try to breed a horse that every Joe Sixpack or Jane Doe can ride and enjoy !
Like in one of the prior years: I chose the stallion I really thought would produce what I wanted. That foal I really believe in as a future riding horse. She will for sure bloom as 3 or 4 year old, but as a foal she did not really persuade a lot of people…(including kareen, but I tell ya, you will see !)

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4624009]
I[…]
It’s not how you make better horses in the long run, and I think it’s going to make it increasingly hard to find any kind of outcross.[/QUOTE]

I fully agree to this sentnce as you can see from my post !

[Kareen]

…which is why I would encourage every concerned breeder to look specifically for those matings or potential outcross stallions for their mares.
Thus far I was lucky with my attempts mine both turned out fillies. Had they been colts I would probably have had to keep them for a looong time before selling them.
The filly Alexandra is talking about I thought was just fine, she was just not a ‘sale-foal’ as she already said. I’m sure she’ll do well under saddle, yet I’m glad she won’t sit on Alexandra’s payroll for 3-4 more years.
It’s amazing to me that breeders in the US will go through the hazzle of importing frozen from stallions in Germany when you have Don Principe, Royal Prince and many others right - well not at your doorstep - but at least on your continent. I do still see the point in trying to widen your marebase or breeding a filly in Europe to later add to your breeding programme but as far as stallions go I think you’re very well equiped and have excellent choices at home. But then yes there might not be a huge name attached to them but they have one thing so gloriously in their favor: They’re there to meet, observe in training, watch in competition, follow track about their progeny etc.etc.