Is there any video or photos on line of his 2009 foals? Any auction results?
I agree with limiting the number of foals first year to a reasonable amount. 50? Also if they release more detail, it could help people make decisions for buying.
I hope I didnât imply that they shouldnât be used for breeding, but I think those wanting to use them should know about the sire before they make that choice. I do not think it is as important for riding, the pheno -geno argument. So half of 2009 crop are going to be geldings that leaves 70 mares, not which all are even for sale as some bred for themselves. 30 to 50 fillies that have a stigma attached to them in the case they were going to be used for brood mares.
I feel bad for anyone who puts time and effort into something and it does not turn out for them. I would be nice if some turned out to be very successful.
imagine this:
a famous private run stallion station anywhere in europe.
they even stand olympic stallions at stud.
they serve breeders all around the world.
they raise a âhotâ beautiful (black???) stallion of desirable âhotâ pedigree.
they develop, train and promote him well.
the stallion gets to breed, fees are considerably high, given this is a young and unproven stallion production wise.
who cares?
breeders obviously donât care, they buy the semen since this is a âhotâ stallion and he looks good in the internet - most of them havenât even seen him in flesh or know anything about his damline, relatives etc
free market works: supply and demand.
price regulates the market.
noone is FORCED to buy this semen.
it sells anyway.
first and second crop is on the ground, the only one who cares is the stallion owner since he wants to know if the stallion produces according to the expectation in order to keep him at stud - note:
suboptimal production will only serve to the bad for the stallion owner in the long run - quality control is a well accepted AND required market mechanism and it is required in ANY product, no matter if cars, TVs or horses are produced.
stallion owner has valid reason to believe that this stallionâs production remains behind expectations.
he pulls the emergency brake and takes this stallion out of breeding.
he knows, damage control is an expensive thing to do, but it certainly pays in the long run.
HE KEEPS HIS CONCLUSION FOR HIMSELF and doesnât talk about it.
he thinks of ways to still make money o/o this stallion who by now has a show record to somehow still consider him âhotâ - at least as a show horse, that is, but as long as the stallion remains in tact he can on top of that still be marketed as a breeding stallion, too.
people who havenât seen this stallionâs foals donât know any better, anway.
thus, look out for people far away, solvent people, as further away as possible (guess where�).
start spreading the rumour this stallion is for sale since there is promising get on the ground to make sure a successor for own use is available, thus, the stallion can go and still serve for the best anywhere else - what a benevolent stallion owner this is!
across the ocean, some solvent people have fallen in love with this stallion from all those glossy pictures they have seen in the internet, they get inspired by his mostly promising pedigree they hear people talk about in BBs like this and they decide to acquire this black beauty - what a âhotâ addition he would make to the breed in their countryâŠ
they donât know any better.
they havenât seen any of his foals in density and if at all, only a few hand picked foals of high quality o/o quality maresâŠ
deal is done.
stallion moves on (guess where?) leaving europe.
check is in the bank account and you can hear funny noises night after night from the stallion ownerâs homeâŠ
a local breeder becomes aware of these noises and starts to think:
what is this about?
he approaches the stallion ownerâs home to inspect those noises and becomes invited to the barn and home and talk - gossip?
he realizes, the funny noises come right from the stallion owner who still needs help holding his big belly since from all that laughter it is still shaking badly up and down and hurtsâŠ
laughter?
the local breeder learns:
the stallion owner just made a good deal as he had sold a stallion for big money to some people with big money and as such got rid of a producer who even the local breeder knew was a poor producer since the local breeder had been there to see the first crops from this stallion on the ground.
the local breeder gets invited to some beer and schnaps on the great deal the stallion owner made having gotten rid of this stallion and he also learns about the newest acquisition of the stallion owner:
yet another black and beautiful young colt of hottest pedigree to be approved at the next licensing and boy, you better breed your mare to this hottest thing on earth!
the local breeder listens and decides to breed his mare yet another time to the old but proven stallion (lesser black but proven producer) the stallion owner stands at stud, too.
the stallion owner actually doesnât care - he likes the local breeder since he knows his mares and he has already bought foals from this local breeder - as long as the local breeder breeds his mare to any of his stallins he is happy - he will find other people to breed their mares to his newest acquisition - no matter where.
âŠ
sounds made up and unrealistic?
oh well.
hats off to a stallion owner who stands up and speaks loudly about the unsatisfying production of any of his stallions BEFORE he gets sold to others who usually know nothing about itâŠ
[QUOTE=Kareen;4620662]
You know what? What business do they have in judgeing someone elseâs foals? They are not a breed registry. If they chose to no longer stand a stallion at stud and deem it a good idea to âthrown him under the busâ before his first foals are even old enough to participate in stallion approval that is fine and totally their choice. But they should not judge the stallionâs foal crop altogether because chances are they havenât even seen all Doolittle foals and even if they had, they are still not entitled to making such judgement. Last thing I knew neither the BlueHors owner nor Esben Moeller (sorry for misspelling, lacking the / on keyboard) were part of any breed registryâs board of judges.
They are a private enterprise (for whatever) and as such itâs none of their business rating someone elseâs foals. If they were unhappy with what their own crop looked like no problem. They could have stopped using him. They are entitled to think of their own horses whatever they like and if they feel like removing him from their roster - their choice. Any stallion owner can chose so anytime. But even a sweeping wishy-washy statement like the one cited (all assuming Eurodressage cited correctly) is way off base Iâm sorry.[/QUOTE]
So what they should have done was just kept quiet and let hundreds more substandard babies hit the ground before saying anything? Just quietly quit using him while continuing to take other peopleâs money when they know the horse wonât produce? Yes. That is just a MUCH better option.
And, people judge other peopleâs horses every day. You do it when you breed, or at least I hope so. You look at the stallion, what he produces, and if possible, the mares he crossed with. You judge all these horses before shelling out your tiny 1-2K stud fee. Donât you think that Blue Hors should be able to make the same judgements to see if itâs worth the exponentially higher cost of keeping, promoting, and breeding a stallion?
And why are you on about big breeding stations and how theyâre keeping the little man down? What are they, the Wally World of breeding? I donât think so.
I do feel sorry to those that took the gamble of breeding to an unproven stallion, but, thatâs the chance you take. And if I had a stallion that I didnât think produced nice foals, Iâd have done the exact same thing in a heart beat. Not so publicly, but he certainly wouldnât be a stallion for long. When youâre running an operation that big (any operation, really), you have to be picky.
stoicfish - not sure that I agree with your assessment that the fillies from those breeding will have a stigma attached to them⊠If they are conformationally correct I think they could be quite valuable as broodmares given those bloodlines. Just because Doolittle isnât able to improve on his offspring doesnât mean that his bloodlines are useless.
Buyer Beware
All agreed fannie. And Sergei.
In all of the anger posted on this board, do consider this - Buyer Beware.
Buyer beware for breeding to a stallion, for buying a performance horse, for buying a broodmare, buying a breeding stallion, buying a foal, on and on, etc., etc.
Buyer beware.
Every single one of those first-season mare owners knew this one sharp and crystal clear fact: He was a NEW stallion. He looks good on paper and in person. Seems to compete well at showing. Shall we risk our mare to him? They weigh it out, pros, cons. Then, they decide to take the risk, knowing it is a HUGE risk. Mare gets pregnant in 2008. In 2009, out pops a funky foal.
They hesitate to report it back to the stallion - maybe, just maybe, it was a fluke of genetics. Those things happen. So, they sit quiet. But then, in FALL OF 2009, they go to the foal inspections held variously around the country. And see more funky foals by said sire, out of a wide variety of good looking and proven premium broodmares. They hear breeders of the class of 2008 talking, breeders that they know very well and know are honest in assessing their opinions, who know WHAT THE HELL THEYâRE TALKING ABOUT! A really experienced breeder with a good âhorse-eyeâ knows a good foal when they see one. So then they decide to report funky foal to the stallion station. And donât you even begin to convince me that a foal judge canât tell the difference between a funky foal and CREME-DE-LA-CREME OF THE CROP! After the fall foal inspections, a lot of folks from the Breeding Class of 2008 start reporting funky foals to the station. Stallion Station starts accumulating data. By the time all is said and done, another breeding season (aka 2009) has gone on and done itself out. They put the brakes on hard to stop there from being a Breeding Class of 2010, because thatâs the soonest they can do it!
Stop harping about a second breeding season being wasted. If you have done the math, you would realize that by the time the foal inspections are held in the fall, the second breeding season is ALREADY DONE!!! Itâs only after Blue Hors had a chance to attend the foaling inspections, noted the predominance of various problems in what would be a significant number of foals, and heard the reports back from the Mare Owners, that they would have no choice but to call in the towel. And let me tell you - BLUE HORS ATTENDS THE FOAL INSPECTIONS. No respectful stallion station would dare NOT to attend the foal inspections. The breeding class of 2008 are the foals attending the fall fair of 2009. Just tell me how else theyâre supposed to stop 2009 breeding when it already began before some foals were even on the ground? Blue Hors had no idea this particular stallion would produce a very high percentage of funky foals until the foal inspection statistics come in.
And whoâs to say they have not contacted various mare owners and reached some sort of agreement with perhaps a reduced-rate breeding to a more proven high caliber stallion to make up for some of their losses? These things we do not know about and it is none of our business to know. It is confidential negotiations between Blue Hors and Mare Owner.
Now with the issue of said stallion possibly being sold to some unsuspecting buyerâŠ
BUYER BEWARE!!!
Which is why anyone who has any sort of brain in their head who is shopping for a stallion, should be hopping the next plane going across the pond, renting a car, and driving around the back country roads tracking down the aforementioned stallionâs foal crop, BEFORE they decide to bring out the pocketbook to purchase said stallion. Or if you really have great timing, Prospective Buyer should be there in the fall DURING THE FOAL INSPECTIONS, taking detailed notes on the foal crop of the aforementioned stallion you may be prospecting to buy.
Buyer beware. Itâs worth repeating, yet one more time, so perhaps the message is made really, really acutely clear.
You wouldnât buy a proven broodmare sight unseen would you? You would want to see her babies of varying ages wouldnât you? See how her older babies are performing? Make notes on what stallions she has been bred to? Perhaps get a detailed background history of her performance stats?
Or if you are buying a maiden mare, then you are looking at her for her personal merits KNOWING FULL WELL SHE IS NOT PROVEN AS A BROODMARE. And she will have 2 maybe 3 foal years to prove herself worthy of remaining as a broodmare. If she cannot produce, she is yanked from the broodie band.
Same with the stallion. If someone in North America buys a stallion from over the pond without checking all of his credentials (read: foal crops), then they deserve to lose their hard-earned money.
I agree that it is better that mare owners are made aware of a young stallionâs deficits in the production department. Best it happen now, rather than let it go on for 4 breeding seasons, or 6 or 10.
Agree with Fannie Mae also.
[QUOTE=fannie mae;4621089]
stallion owner has valid reason to believe that this stallionâs production remains behind expectations.
he pulls the emergency brake and takes this stallion out of breeding.
he knows, damage control is an expensive thing to do, but it certainly pays in the long run.
HE KEEPS HIS CONCLUSION FOR HIMSELF and doesnât talk about it.
he thinks of ways to still make money o/o this stallion who by now has a show record to somehow still consider him âhotâ - at least as a show horse, that is, but as long as the stallion remains in tact he can on top of that still be marketed as a breeding stallion, too.
people who havenât seen this stallionâs foals donât know any better, anway.
thus, look out for people far away, solvent people, as further away as possible (guess where�).
âŠ[/QUOTE]
People have been mentioning the Dutch system of the watch list as effective and more reasonable way of culling a stallion. One thing that hasnât been mentioned is that a stallion moves from the watch list to being disapproved, as I understand it, only after a certain number of additional foals have been evaluated.
Iâve been told by someone who is pretty well connected with breeders in the NL and the KWPN that stallion owners are warned of watch list placement well in advance of publication. Moving the stallion on to a location where 10-20 mares a year is considered decent (as Fannie Mae said, guess where âŠ?) , can keep the stallion on the watch list essentially forever. Many mare owners would be totally unaware of any concern.
IMO, itâs irresponsible for any stallion owner to let 100+ foals be born withOUT doing any test breedings.
No note about who said this, because sooooooooooo many of you did.
So, what about all the other HOT HOT HOT stallions that bred anywhere from 500 - 700 mares their first year? And lots of them (in Europe) DID.
So, if the foal crop - and especially if it is YOUR foal - comes out good, thatâs OK, and if the foal crop, especially if itâs YOUR foal - comes out bad, itâs not???
Didnât Quaterback breed so many mares his first year that they had to ration semen?
I think quite a number of freshman stallions in Europe get hundreds of mares their first year. Is it right? Apparently yes if it works. Is it wrong? Apparently no if it doesnât. 
I think what they did was wrong.
We donât know what standard these foals did not meet. Maybe they were a little coarser than ideal, a bit older fashioned.
Doesnât mean he wouldnât work with a different mare base.
The KWPN foals reports are extremely detailed and picky picky picky. But it is a jury, not one stud farm.
I said that and it stilllllllllll makes absolutely no sense to me not to do test breedings, for the betterment of the breed. ESPECIALLY when youâre one of the biggest, most respected stallion stations in the world where youâre shipping hundreds or ??thousands?? of doses a year.
Sure itâs buyer beware, m.o.'s they know what theyâre getting into with an unproven stallion, sure they take that risk, but at the end of the day itâs the stallion ownerâs responsibility (is it not) to figure out if the stallion is worthy of adding itâs genes to the gene pool in MASSIVE numbers? Some of these ânot good enough foalsâ will enter the gene pool somewhere someday.
Cutting him off after a problem was found is GREAT, Iâm all for that, donât get me wrong, BUT even at that, I believe 100 too many foals were allowed to be produced (or will soon be produced) with the current method of shipping âhotâ semen to who ever wants it. IMO There should be âlimited breedingsâ the first year or two for all stallions. Sure itâs more expensive to do it this way. Get creative with how to sell those 50 doses a year, raffle tickets, lottery, etc⊠to make up for the $
Iâm looking at the big picture⊠
This is just a thought, so I thought Iâd put it out there.
As I recall, Dansk Varmblod has a policy similar to the Dutch: they will repeal a stallionâs approval if heâs not producing well.
Thereâs a chance that it wasnât Blue Horsâs decision, but was Dansk Varmblodâs instead. Methinks it would be more embarrassing to have oneâs stallionâs approval revoked than to say âweâve decided the quality of the foals was not as expected.â
I can see both sides of the issueâŠbut, I suppose itâs better to err on the side of honesty. Sucks for the foal owners though.
I did find these foals listed for sale by Doolittle.
Caitlin
[QUOTE=Iron Horse Farm;4617404]
seems very oddâŠunless some dramatc proportion of these 131 foals had some BIG problem - club feet or wobblers or parrot mouth or something.[/QUOTE]
Thatâs kinda what I was thinking Iron Horse-There is a very very very popular AQHA stallion that I mistakenly bred to about six years ago. Foal came out with an E NORMOUS parrot mouth (weâre talking the most dramatic Iâve ever seen) Now, I know the damâs sire and dam and several full siblings and what theyâve produced so I was reasonably sure it was a stallion issue. I called the stallion owner in TX and was told âwhatâs the big deal? just put braces on itâ Come to find out the sire had been parrot mouthed as a baby, had braces (and won the WORLD!!! as a weanling and again as yearling) and threw something like 45% parrot and/or cryptorchid colts and about 40% of his fillies were parrot mouthed.
I promptly gelded the colt I got, sent him out to get some dental surgery so heâd have better alignment as an adult, and gave him to my dad to use as a trail horse.
[QUOTE=siegi b.;4621147]
stoicfish - not sure that I agree with your assessment that the fillies from those breeding will have a stigma attached to them⊠If they are conformationally correct I think they could be quite valuable as broodmares given those bloodlines. Just because Doolittle isnât able to improve on his offspring doesnât mean that his bloodlines are useless.[/QUOTE]
"30 to 50 fillies that have a stigma attached to them in the case they were going to be used for brood mares. "
Your right, I should have said - may have a stigma. I was actually trying to point out that not all of these babies are doomed. That many might not even be affected. There was some numbers thrown out - stud fee/foal price times 130. My point was many of these horses due to their sex and circumstances might not even be affected. And you are probably right about the conformation and being desirable. Which would cut down even more on the damage that Blue Hors did to thier breeders.
[QUOTE=RedMare01;4621526]
I can see both sides of the issueâŠbut, I suppose itâs better to err on the side of honesty. Sucks for the foal owners though.
I did find these foals listed for sale by Doolittle.
Caitlin[/QUOTE]
Not that you can tell much more from the photos, but the Bella Chica baby has the most adorable face.
They do seem to vary a lot. Maybe Blue Hors felt like he wasnât stamping his foals enough?
Whatever one thinks of what they did. Judgeing a stallionâs heritance by looking at oldest offspring foals that have just only been weaned from their dams isnât quite what I would call thoughtful. This is why we no longer have true stallions of the century as they are made to rise quickly and fall even sooner and harder.
Iâm not sure how all this big-name glorification came up here but I find it disgusting. I see it in the training debate in dressage, the same with PSI being the greatest marketing event in the world giggle and apparently a stallion station only rocks if they know how to lick the massesâ *** while elegantly killing them through the front door. Itâs really funny how some people virtually scream for being taken advantage of.
As far as stallion stations go: Ask around. Talk to private stallion owners who have developed the Raphaels, Rubisteins and Zeusâ of the world and what they are doing today. Look at the State Studs who are struggling and involuntarily became service-points that will collect any stallion as long as there is an owner who is ready to pay for it.
Look at the joke the Meck-Pomm stallion approval has become years ago when PS took control there and what happened to the young jumper division in this little country. Yes itâs great to be able to use stallions from all over the world. But look at the price. Here we have a young stallion who dropped from promising young stallion to allegedly ânot worth breeding toâ by merit of one single foal-crop BlueHors hasnât even seen in total.
I never suggested they should have hushed up his heritance. Itâs not the stallion ownerâs responsibility to warrant the quality of the foalcrops. What do you think a stallion is? Some miracle weapon that will turn a shabby mare into something glorious that will easily sell by the age of 3 days?
I would strongly suggest if BlueHors feel so concerned no substandard foals are born they limit their freshman stallions to 50 mares like it has been done for years and for the better.
They wonât. Maybe they arenât so concerned with the quality of foals yet with their own interest.
Hi Kareen, sorry to push you on this one, but you made some big statements, can you answer my questions please?
âIt is an open secret the majority of stallion ownerships in Europe are financed with foreign funds which originate outside the horse business.â
I guess Iâm out of the loop then???
Iâm not going to disagree with your Kareen, as I only have my experience and knowledge behind me. But can you provide me any examples of the âso many European studfarms have closed the shop during the last yearsâ. Iâm not being argumentative, Iâm just interested in the fact behind the statement.
If anyone knows of anyone trying âto get rid of profits made in another businessâ, could you get them to contact me please?
Again not one foal owner has commented which is telling and personally I did think about the âspecial offerâ deal. All of this buyer beware on purchasing this stallion really ⊠and the internet coverage wouldnât put you off?
Blu Horse stud have made a huge disclosure and what now they are going to off load the stallion secretly?
Additionally what a great stud to take responsibility for their stallion and really if it isnât the norm to limit stallion numbers in the first season why should they? Especially if the stallion appeared in person and on paper to be 100%.
Next are you going to suggest that they should have been able to read the future!
Thatâs the whole point. They apparently think they can. The few Doolittle progeny Iâve seen in person was just fine and really attractive. Besides even a not-so-fancy-looking foal (think of recent top seller at a major elite auction⊠they couldnât get rid of him as a foalâŠ
As far as foreign funded stallionownerships in Europe go you just have to compare whatâs there today to chose from to what there was a few years ago. Van Hoorn (Charon) no longer stand stallions, Amselhof Walle (Akzent II, RaphaelâŠ) shut the stallion shop down in right after the old Mr. Kemmer had died (feels like 2004ish), GestĂŒt Vorwerk (Zeus, Inschallah, Furioso II, Rubinstein, Royal Diamond, Don GregoryâŠ), sold out just recently to the Max-Theurers from Austria, Jonetat (Sunlight xxâŠ) discontinue to stand stallions as of 2008, Platte/Equilandhof (Argument, For PleasureâŠ) now thatâs another story yet you wonder that today there are only 2 stallions âactivelyâ breeding when they stood many more successfullyâŠ, SchlossĂ€cker (same as so many times, old owner died, heirs shut down stallion business the second senior is put to rest as they have no desire to keep burning money), today SchlossĂ€cker is solely a service-point but no longer stands stallions, Pohlsee (Gamblerâs Cup xxâŠ), MĂŒhlengrund (St.CloudâŠ) went down end of the 80âs already, GestĂŒt im Niedern was carcass-rendered by PS just like the SchlossĂ€cker stallions 'disappeared to nowhere into the same channels and so on and so on. Even Harli Seiffert one of the most successful if not the most successful Oldenburg breeders in the world (she is the lady who bred all the approved stallions from the Rudilore line. BlueHors just bought Romanov and paid Helgstrand to ride him, now there is a breeding achievement
Rubin Royal, Romanov, Couleur Rubin, Couleur Rouge, Conterno Grande, Congress you name them etc.etc. were all born on H.Seiffertâs farm yet even she was forced to close her shop in an emergency move. GestĂŒt Heiligenstedten (Ramiroâs Bube, Cheenook, CertusâŠ) quit in the late 90âs already⊠The list goes on and on and these are only the ones that sprang to mind from my mostly Hanoverian brain. There are many others who once were blossoms of the stallion business who today may still technically stand one or two stallions but are a far cry from what they once were. St. Ludwig comes to mind (Donnerschlag and the likesâŠ)⊠there is just no more space where you have businesses around who keep pumping their taxable income into glossy brochures and plaster their DVDâs all over the globe.
The Vorwerk thing gave me the ultimate wakeup call. Before I used to think well someone always whines and there are always some who donât make it. But this is getting a bit too scary for my taste.
BTW itâs not my personal hypothesis these âmodernâ stallion ownerships arenât sustainable but deficitary and effectively erradicating competition. I picked up the thought from the Celle State Stud chef during a lecture he held at an annual meeting of the local breederâs board two years ago or so. I couldnât believe it back then yet what he predicted happened and I can now see he was right.
[QUOTE=lolita1;4621836]
Again not one foal owner has commented which is telling[/QUOTE]
I donât think that is indicative of anything. I do not personally know of a single US breeder who used Dolittle (though there may have been some) and in any event I would not assume that any such breeder - here or abroad - is necessarily monitoring COTH for the latest on a stallion they used.
