Boarding Barn - dry paddocks no picking all winter....

[firsthorse]

@PeteyPie

I don’t think that’s acceptable.

Mine are on a dry lot which is picked daily but I don’t get snow and freezing temps here. However, when I lived in Alaska, people would keep their small (like 12’ x 40’) runs picked when possible. For example, here is a winter photo which I found online of the runs at the Diamond H Ranch, a long-established boarding facility in Anchorage. Clearly it would be different with a snowpack, but I would expect no more poop than this in a winter run.
AF1QipOHCsuKE3LXzuf_3fwdjTbgbdkbtSnZ5P2rUglZ=w314-h168-p-k-no

As far as freezing poop goes, there are ways to maintain a paddock to help clean. One friend of mine used pea gravel in her horse’s run and it was very easy to pick up frozen manure. I’ve heard other people on this forum comment that they use the same.

You showed a photo of a stall with run out. The area I am focused on is the daytime dry paddocks where the horses go out. If I showed you a photo it would look like a bit like this but with long thin runs and poop every few feet. But add a bit of snow - not a lot.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wint…=1516986742715

[firsthorse]

@trubandloki

On those defrosted days I suggest you go out there and attempt to pick it up.

We were in the upper 40s for two consecutive days recently. Lots of sun. All the snow melted. All the visible ice melted. Water running everywhere.

Sure there are individual piles out there that will pick up on those days, the trick is finding them.

You quickly learn that the layering of snow and manure and compaction causes things to stay frozen solid for a very long time. When I do go out there and clean this coming spring I will likely be wearing short sleeves and be all warm and comfy and I will still have a huge sheet of ice (compacted snow) under the layer I get up. Manure is a great insulator.

Add that removing two weeks (or two months, or four months) of manure that is freshly thawed is a tedious and hard task.

One of the things that delays my ability to mass clean my paddocks is that everything is wet. The track from the paddocks to the manure pile using the tractor involves the lawn and several no driveway areas. Before I can scrape with the tractor I have to let those areas dry from the mess that spring makes. This is also true right now, with the weird winter thaws.

Winter is tough.

If this manure in the paddock is an issue that bothers you that much it might be best to shop around for another barn. Just know that there is no perfect barn and the next barn might have a different issue. You have to pick what issues you are willing to deal with (and then weigh those with your available budget).

BTW, congratulations on your first horse. So exciting.

(Edit to add - @halt posted while I was typing and said basically the same thing.)

Thank you I love him very much! we are two peas in a pod.

[PeteyPie]

@halt

It looks like there is no snow on the ground? It certainly doesn’t look like midwinter in that picture.

It’s one thing to scrape it out of a stone-dust paddock. You can’t do that easily when there’s any snow on the ground, and all the stone-dust in the world doesn’t prevent snow accumulation. What happens once there is snow, is that it’s almost impossible to extract, and then horses compact that snow into ice, and then it snows again, and then the horses compact that into ice and you end up having multiple layers that you really can’t realistically just scoop & go with.

I’m with Trubandloki. Last weekend it was just warm enough (30F and sunny) after a week of negative temperatures that I had enough time to wheel out 2 wheelbarrow loads of hay & manure in our filly’s dirt lot, which has compacted stone-dust along the fence-line, BTW.

It took me almost an hour and a half. Normally that kind of work might take me 20m, in and out. The rest of it will have to wait until spring.

That’s why I said, “clearly it would be different with a snowpack.” But you said you spent an hour and a half cleaning manure in January and the OP said her place won’t be cleaned until spring. That is not acceptable. Of course there are going to be weeks when there is snow and times when there is mud, but there are also times when there is a warmup and there are many, many days were there is no new snow, and the old stuff evaporates. The times of manure buildup should be measured in days or weeks, not seasons. The photo I linked was taken in November 2016 which is full winter in Alaska.

[findeight]

@firsthorse

There are no “girls” to do quick runs or go to the outside dry paddocks. The dry paddocks I am talking about are the outside time the horses get. So they are standing in poo all day outside. There are plenty of defrosted days but the poo stays there. They are too tired due to there only being ONE worker five days a week. Weekends two workers.

One worker…no wonder they don’t try to pick large paddocks of heavy, wet or frozen poop to reveal frozen ground or deep mud besides doing all the care required to keep the horses alive.

Then again, very likely the reason the board is lower here then at fancier barns is they focus on the essentials, not the frills that require extra paid help resulting in higher board.

You could offer to pick the paddocks yourself for a break in your board? Of course that would need to be done daily or at least 3 times a week and a shovel and wheelbarrow likely won’t get it done, need to have the tractor or ATV with a cart to avoid 59 trips to wherever it gets dumped. . And you’d need to buy some Carharts, good muck boots and gloves, probably not run you more then half a months board if you shop carefully…

Did you not notice this earlier in this season, it’s been cold and wet for several months? How long do you suppose it would take one worker to clean even one paddock?

I know you are new and probably young but accusing your barn staff of one single worker and the BO of being lazy is at best unkind and worst entitled. It is true they are tired though, that happens when barns try to keep board affordable for new owners by offering only essential services and minimum staff.

Next time, investigate what is and what is not provided and remember boarding barns are what you see day one and assuming anything will ever be different is misguided. Also remember the difference between 1200 a month board and 500 or less a month is partly property values /taxes and cost of operation in the area (utilities etc.) but mostly services offered and paid staff to perform them.

Oh, been in boarding barns since about 1970. Nobody picks poop out of big outside paddocks unless they are thawed and mostly dry, even expensive barns. Lower end barns don’t pick poop out of big paddocks, maybe once or twice a year scraping right into a tractor scoop or just using the tractor blade to scrape if it’s a big enough area with a wide enough gate.

[firsthorse]

@findeight

One worker…no wonder they don’t try to pick large paddocks of heavy, wet or frozen poop to reveal frozen ground or deep mud besides doing all the care required to keep the horses alive.

Then again, very likely the reason the board is lower here then at fancier barns is they focus on the essentials, not the frills that require extra paid help resulting in higher board.

You could offer to pick the paddocks yourself for a break in your board? Of course that would need to be done daily or at least 3 times a week and a shovel and wheelbarrow likely won’t get it done, need to have the tractor or ATV with a cart to avoid 59 trips to wherever it gets dumped. . And you’d need to buy some Carharts, good muck boots and gloves, probably not run you more then half a months board if you shop carefully…

Did you not notice this earlier in this season, it’s been cold and wet for several months? How long do you suppose it would take one worker to clean even one paddock?

I know you are new and probably young but accusing your barn staff of one single worker and the BO of being lazy is at best unkind and worst entitled. It is true they are tired though, that happens when barns try to keep board affordable for new owners by offering only essential services and minimum staff.

Next time, investigate what is and what is not provided and remember boarding barns are what you see day one and assuming anything will ever be different is misguided. Also remember the difference between 1200 a month board and 500 or less a month is partly property values /taxes and cost of operation in the area (utilities etc.) but mostly services offered and paid staff to perform them.

Oh, been in boarding barns since about 1970. Nobody picks poop out of big outside paddocks unless they are thawed and mostly dry, even expensive barns. Lower end barns don’t pick poop out of big paddocks, maybe once or twice a year scraping right into a tractor scoop or just using the tractor blade to scrape if it’s a big enough area with a wide enough gate.

board is 475 a month full board. There are approx. 17 horses half of them are retired. I can’t offer to pick paddocks as I have a permanent shoulder injury. These are multiple large paddocks used for lots of different horses day in day out.

[trubandloki]

@firsthorse

board is 475 a month full board.

How does that compare to the other boarding options in your area?

(A number does not mean much since the cost of boarding can be so different from one area to the next.)

[firsthorse]

@findeight

One worker…no wonder they don’t try to pick large paddocks of heavy, wet or frozen poop to reveal frozen ground or deep mud besides doing all the care required to keep the horses alive.

Then again, very likely the reason the board is lower here then at fancier barns is they focus on the essentials, not the frills that require extra paid help resulting in higher board.

You could offer to pick the paddocks yourself for a break in your board? Of course that would need to be done daily or at least 3 times a week and a shovel and wheelbarrow likely won’t get it done, need to have the tractor or ATV with a cart to avoid 59 trips to wherever it gets dumped. . And you’d need to buy some Carharts, good muck boots and gloves, probably not run you more then half a months board if you shop carefully…

Did you not notice this earlier in this season, it’s been cold and wet for several months? How long do you suppose it would take one worker to clean even one paddock?

I know you are new and probably young but accusing your barn staff of one single worker and the BO of being lazy is at best unkind and worst entitled. It is true they are tired though, that happens when barns try to keep board affordable for new owners by offering only essential services and minimum staff.

Next time, investigate what is and what is not provided and remember boarding barns are what you see day one and assuming anything will ever be different is misguided. Also remember the difference between 1200 a month board and 500 or less a month is partly property values /taxes and cost of operation in the area (utilities etc.) but mostly services offered and paid staff to perform them.

Oh, been in boarding barns since about 1970. Nobody picks poop out of big outside paddocks unless they are thawed and mostly dry, even expensive barns. Lower end barns don’t pick poop out of big paddocks, maybe once or twice a year scraping right into a tractor scoop or just using the tractor blade to scrape if it’s a big enough area with a wide enough gate.

I never said they were Lazy that was one of the other members take on what I said. I said TIRED.

[McGurk]

firsthorse,

For some perspective, I keep my horses and home and I am very persnickety about pasture management. I am in a climate milder than Trubandloki’s but we have had two snowstorms this year and we haven’t able to pick paddocks in 6 weeks. It’s either been frozen or two wet to bring the tractor out into the field. The one paddock is disgusting, and I have hired someone to help me pick this weekend.

Even the most dedicated pasture manager has to acknowledge the reality of the weather.

Now, the situation you’ve described does sound like less than ideal management. At the very least, I would have my horse on an aggressive worming schedule or have a float test done a couple of times a year.

Other than, I think picking the dry paddock yourself is a viable suggestion. I’d also construct some sort of hay feeder so the horse isn’t eating of the dirty ground. The BM will likely say they can’t do a hay net because of time/labor constraints, so a hay feeder that the barn help can just throw the hay in is a better idea.

Most boarder (most, not all) complaints come down to one simple fact: boarders want better care than they’re paying for.

This is not a really high end barn price wise more in the middle.
So the question is, can you afford to pay for a barn with a higher standard of care? Is the manure situation a deal breaker for you?

I agree with you that it’s not ideal, but my deal breakers in boarding run roughly like this -

Lack of clean water available at all times
Insufficient forage
Limited turnout
Unsafe fencing
Dirty stalls
Stalls with insufficient bedding/horse has hock sores
Abusive barn help
Poor feeding practices (cheap sweet feed, crappy feeding schedule)
Barn frequently runs out of bedding, feed, hay
Bad horse handling practices - seeing help lead horses incorrectly, turn out unsafely, etc.
No shelter in turn out/horses are sunburnt/fly bitten
Constant theft by borrowing

And I haven’t even discussed a ring or wash stall yet.

So, with that perspective, how important is the manure situation to you? If t is still a deal breaker, you will probably have to pay more for a barn with a higher standard of care. But no guarantees that the more expensive barn won’t have a new, different deal breaker that you haven’t considered.

If you otherwise like the barn, your horse is in good health and safe and this price point is what you can realistically afford, I think you need to figure out a way to accept the manure situation.

[firsthorse]

@findeight

One worker…no wonder they don’t try to pick large paddocks of heavy, wet or frozen poop to reveal frozen ground or deep mud besides doing all the care required to keep the horses alive.

Then again, very likely the reason the board is lower here then at fancier barns is they focus on the essentials, not the frills that require extra paid help resulting in higher board.

You could offer to pick the paddocks yourself for a break in your board? Of course that would need to be done daily or at least 3 times a week and a shovel and wheelbarrow likely won’t get it done, need to have the tractor or ATV with a cart to avoid 59 trips to wherever it gets dumped. . And you’d need to buy some Carharts, good muck boots and gloves, probably not run you more then half a months board if you shop carefully…

Did you not notice this earlier in this season, it’s been cold and wet for several months? How long do you suppose it would take one worker to clean even one paddock?

I know you are new and probably young but accusing your barn staff of one single worker and the BO of being lazy is at best unkind and worst entitled. It is true they are tired though, that happens when barns try to keep board affordable for new owners by offering only essential services and minimum staff.

Next time, investigate what is and what is not provided and remember boarding barns are what you see day one and assuming anything will ever be different is misguided. Also remember the difference between 1200 a month board and 500 or less a month is partly property values /taxes and cost of operation in the area (utilities etc.) but mostly services offered and paid staff to perform them.

Oh, been in boarding barns since about 1970. Nobody picks poop out of big outside paddocks unless they are thawed and mostly dry, even expensive barns. Lower end barns don’t pick poop out of big paddocks, maybe once or twice a year scraping right into a tractor scoop or just using the tractor blade to scrape if it’s a big enough area with a wide enough gate.

I never used the word LAZY I said TIRED! I am not entitled. I am someone that works hard and is just wanting my horse in a healthy environment. It’s all about the horse as far as I am concerned which is why I am out there every day to spend time with him even if it’s freezing cold. Due to my shoulder injury I can not do more than a certain amount of work that is why I am paying for full board.

[firsthorse]

@trubandloki

How does that compare to the other boarding options in your area?

(A number does not mean much since the cost of boarding can be so different from one area to the next.)

Well there are barns that are 325 and ones with indoors in the 600 range. This one has no indoor I picked it for the good pastures.

[firsthorse]

Now I know three months worth a poo is normal and horses standing in slushy shit is what people are ok with I will try not to get so obsessed with it!

[trubandloki]

@firsthorse

Now I know three months worth a poo is normal and horses standing in slushy shit is what people are ok with I will try not to get so obsessed with it!

I think you misread my posts. I am not OK with my horses standing in a mess. I am stuck with my horses standing in a mess.
It gets cleaned and we are back to 2x daily picking as soon as it can be.

<cringes at the thought of it being OK>

[halt]

@firsthorse

Now I know three months worth a poo is normal and horses standing in slushy shit is what people are ok with I will try not to get so obsessed with it!

Ok - you don’t gotta get defensive. I get that most of these responses are not the answer you wanted, but unfortunately running a boarding barn is a lot of money, a lot of work, and your poor barn-staff sounds really understaffed. If I were you I’d be buying her a nice warm coffee or hot chocolate every now and then as it sounds like she is really being stretched thin over 17 horses!

I will say that $475 for board is an absolute killing. I keep my horses at home. Just factoring in feed, (not even including real estate tax, mortgage, utilities/electric/heat, etc), my horse costs me on average about $250 a month to feed. That is on a roundbale, which comes far cheaper than straight bales of hay, and a high quality grain that is $28 lb a bag.

(This is all really simplified math here)

Hypothetically, if I was BO, I’d “only” be making $225 off having this horse on my property. Then I gotta pay the worker, pay for stuff like utilities, plowing, supplies, real estate tax (which is not nominal in my area - averages $13,000/year)…

You can see how that “extra” $225 turns into nothing real quick. Let’s just factor in the worker alone. One worker for 17 horses sounds like a pretty terrible horse/human ratio. 17 horses is definitely a full time (8-5) arrangement for a worker. Let’s say that worker works 37hrs a week at $10 wage. That’s $222 a week.

So… there goes that “extra” $225. I am losing money on you, since I still have to pay the worker $222 for the other four weeks of the month…

And I didn’t even factor in the cost of running a boarding facility yet! Just the cost of one horse, on free land, with a worker involved.

I’m not thrilled about my guys standing in a hot manure soup mess either… but that’s how winter goes here. Freeze, thaw, freeze, thaw over and over until spring. Fortunately the layers of snow keep their feet relatively clean (I almost never have abscess issues in the winter) and in the spring, we just go through with a skidsteer and scrape off “winter’s messy remnants”.

Trust me there are bigger dealbreakers out there! So glad the barn can provide good care for your horse otherwise… especially at $475/month.

[poltroon]

OP, if your horse is happy and healthy it is probably OK.

It’s hard with a first horse - your baby! and you want what’s best. The secret is, if your horse is at home you will probably not be picking those paddocks every day either.

Do the experiment. As a public service, go take a wheelbarrow load’s worth out of there and get a feel for the job. You said your shoulder was injured - that sucks but if the horse were home you’d be in the same boat. Picking paddocks is repetitive but on clean dirt need not be strenuous/heavy activity such that it would hurt a shoulder that is cleared for riding a horse.

It sounds like the place you are at is a decent fit for your needs.

A possible solution for the hay on poop problem, if you remain concerned, is an area of rubber mats that are easier to keep clean. But the truth is… horses do sometimes eat poop or other unclean material and it mostly turns out OK.

[trubandloki]

@poltroon

A possible solution for the hay on poop problem, if you remain concerned, is an area of rubber mats that are easier to keep clean. But the truth is… horses do sometimes eat poop or other unclean material and it mostly turns out OK.

And, some horses do poop on their food. It seems like it is on purpose too. But who knows what is going on in that head.

[firsthorse]

@trubandloki

I think you misread my posts. I am not OK with my horses standing in a mess. I am stuck with my horses standing in a mess.
It gets cleaned and we are back to 2x daily picking as soon as it can be.

<cringes at the thought of it being OK>

Oh that wasn’t focused on you Trubandloki ! your replies have been very helpful.

[Bedina]

I’m late to the conversation, but my experience is that this is entirely based upon the barn manager’s perception of “normal”.

The barn I grew up in had an indoor, limited boarder turnout, and affordable board for the area. While stalls and the hallway were kept clean, I don’t recall the indoor (which frequently doubled as turnout) ever being picked, nor the limited turnout/owner’s larger pastures.

I relocated to Northern Virginia, and the place I board now also has reasonable board for the area. The owner pays someone to clean stalls and pick the pastures (14-ish acres worth) daily - not during days with torrential downpours, blizzards, nor when it’s bitterly cold, but all others.

It never occurred to me in my “home” barn to want nor expect this. Now that I’ve experienced it, I wouldn’t board somewhere without it.

But I expect there are plenty of barns in the area that don’t do this and would see it as a foolish or an impossible task to tackle in winter.

Again, congrats, @firsthorse!

[firsthorse]

@halt

Ok - you don’t gotta get defensive. I get that most of these responses are not the answer you wanted, but unfortunately running a boarding barn is a lot of money, a lot of work, and your poor barn-staff sounds really understaffed. If I were you I’d be buying her a nice warm coffee or hot chocolate every now and then as it sounds like she is really being stretched thin over 17 horses!

I will say that $475 for board is an absolute killing. I keep my horses at home. Just factoring in feed, (not even including real estate tax, mortgage, utilities/electric/heat, etc), my horse costs me on average about $250 a month to feed. That is on a roundbale, which comes far cheaper than straight bales of hay, and a high quality grain that is $28 lb a bag.

(This is all really simplified math here)

Hypothetically, if I was BO, I’d “only” be making $225 off having this horse on my property. Then I gotta pay the worker, pay for stuff like utilities, plowing, supplies, real estate tax (which is not nominal in my area - averages $13,000/year)…

You can see how that “extra” $225 turns into nothing real quick. Let’s just factor in the worker alone. One worker for 17 horses sounds like a pretty terrible horse/human ratio. 17 horses is definitely a full time (8-5) arrangement for a worker. Let’s say that worker works 37hrs a week at $10 wage. That’s $222 a week.

So… there goes that “extra” $225. I am losing money on you, since I still have to pay the worker $222 for the other four weeks of the month…

And I didn’t even factor in the cost of running a boarding facility yet! Just the cost of one horse, on free land, with a worker involved.

I’m not thrilled about my guys standing in a hot manure soup mess either… but that’s how winter goes here. Freeze, thaw, freeze, thaw over and over until spring. Fortunately the layers of snow keep their feet relatively clean (I almost never have abscess issues in the winter) and in the spring, we just go through with a skidsteer and scrape off “winter’s messy remnants”.

Trust me there are bigger dealbreakers out there! So glad the barn can provide good care for your horse otherwise… especially at $475/month.

I see. Yes it doesn’t sound like a good business plan. I wonder why anyone does it. Love of horses. I sure it can get draining. Maybe you are right and a kind word and a treat once in a while…

[Pennywell_Bay]

For a field as big as the one you showed in the link- I admittedly do not pick up every poop and I don’t do it in the winter. My sacrifice field is pretty big. I do drag it in the summer, fall.

If it were a true run off the stall, I’d be much much more picky and expect that the cleaning would be stipulated in the contact.

Off topic… New COTH t-shirt “Winter is Tough” (or Winter Sucks )

[Sweetums_Mom]

BO/BM here of a small 6 stall barn…I HATE having the horses standing in mud/poop/water AND I do everything I can to minimize it. I have done the fabric/gravel bit in front of my two sheds and that area I TRY and keep as picked up as possible. But, as others have said, you have to wait until there is a thaw and then it’s a huge job depending on how long it’s been since the last picking.

I even let the horses out in the pasture when it’s not frozen and I see the damage done but I’m prepared to fix it this spring. The most important thing for me is for the horses to be OUT, even in the mud/poop, but that doesn’t mean I like it.

I’ve had boarders/farriers complain to me about the mud and had one farrier even tell me not to turn out the horse so he quits losing shoes but I quickly told him that I wasn’t going to have a horse in a stall for the next 3 months. I’ve emphasized that unfortunately mud will be part of the scene for a few months each year and I try and minimize the horses standing in it by keeping a small area picked up and even turning out into the big fields when most BO/BM’s wouldn’t.

OP, I understand your concern and share it but sometimes, there’s not much to be done unless you find a barn with very little/no turnout or if good turnout, you will probably pay more than what you are paying now. It is possible to have perfect paddocks as there is a barn near me that does but I know they charge over $1,000 per month.